202 replies to this topic

[Thecure]

What ppl don't seem to get is that 6 PPC Stalker pilots don't go around alpha striking unless:
1. They are in a "safe" spot.
2. They know they'll kill the target. (in pug games they 're accused of kill stealing, in team matches they free up the team to get to next target)
3. They are overrun so they might aswell go out with a bang.

I wonder what enemies are doing while we 're shut down? They 're probably are shut down too...


*edit* finally learned to spell "enemies"

Edited by Thecure, 18 April 2013 - 12:54 PM.

[Willie Sauerland]

Victor Morson, on 18 April 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

I draw the line at the double spacing + three words at a time crap. Even without centering it looks awful.

Blame the forum software as it does the double spacing.

Not me.

In fact - try it yourself just as a test.

I did decide to compromise on the number of words

per line though as I thought it was a valid point.

But you haven't even been so kind to condescend

and compliment me on the words per line.

Nope. You still complain about me centering my text

even though you want to pretend it doesn't bother you.

[TOGSolid]

Kristov Kerensky, on 18 April 2013 - 01:30 AM, said:

You know, if I hadn't repeatedly been fired on by 6 PPC Stalkers while moving laterally to their line of fire, I'd think you might be on to something there.

But..you know what..I have been moving laterally to their line of fire and had those 6 PPC beams NOT all hit the same spot on my Mech, so I'm pretty sure that convergence is actually working. Walking directly INTO the line of fire, I'm sure you aren't aware of this, as it would always seem the beams converge and hit the same spot.

I know, I know, why would you do anything but walk directly at the tenemy? Well..first off..moving across their line of fire when they are using t2t weapons like Gauss and PPCs means they have to LEAD their shots, which means convergence gets all screwed up, so the weapons don't all hit the same spot..but hey..that would too difficult to pull of right, I mean, who moves across the enemy's line of fire instead of running directly into it? It also means they can flat out MISS you due to the lead time being off.

PPCs are big nasty guns, that's a fact ladies and gentlemen, and they are SUPPOSED to be big nasty guns. You are SUPPOSED to making water in your seat when someone points a PPC at you, and you should be making a really big mess in that seat when you see someone point more then 1 of them at you. In TT, it's one of the scariest weapons you can put on a Mech. In the lore/novels people see that blue lighting bolt and they go AWAY from where it came, they don't rush towards it, it's DEATH!

And the OP wants to turn it into a LL?

Wait...

What?

While I disagree on the effectiveness of convergence as it currently stands, I do agree that nerfing the weapon is just a ******** silly idea.

Also, I know better than to run straight at a PPC boat. Not everyone posting here is some scrub fresh out of a trial mech. I've been arguing that pinpoint aiming is an issue ever since the Gaussapult first showed up.

Funny how a lot of the FOTM mech builds people ***** about almost always come back to the pinpoint mechs. Boomcats, Gaussapults, Boomjagers, poptarting Cataphracts, and now all of the Highlanders. It always comes back to the same inherent problem but instead people ***** about the guns rather than really looking at what's going on. The two big exceptions are splatcats (which turned out to be the result of a splash damage glitch) and LRM boating (and LRMs need a massive overhaul of their own and are also glitched). Other than those two, it keeps going back to pinpoint damage.

Edited by TOGSolid, 18 April 2013 - 12:57 PM.

[XSive Death]

Attempting to regulate the PPC based on heat production is useless. That does not negate the initial problem of an insanely high alpha (which destroys your opponent, making prolonged engagements impossible). Not to mention the poptarting approach of jump, fire, land, cool repeat ad nauseam.

You want to fix the PPC, increase it's hardpoints to 4 slots each (hell, even 5), and it's tonnage. That directly affects the mech's ability to carry more PPC's, or sacrifice heatsinks which in turn results in a mech with a much more heat-unstable build.

[Ens]

Quote

"Projectile" Velocity ---> 2000
thats the real problem

i have no problem with getting stomped by ac/20 ( as a light pilot ) because i´m circling enemy assaults or else and doing quick hit and runs and my enemy just ruined my day because of having a swift hand

but its getting idiotic when you get blown to bits on range by ppc fire although you´re running around like a rabbit on crack to dodge something
any pilot with semi-good aim will hit next to everything with a ppc

heat might be fine on ppc... that was a reasonable buff
even raising the velocity was fine.... but 2000 is too damn high

put that to 1200 ( which is the velocity of the gauss ) or 1300 ( which is AC/5 and UAC/5 )
and the PPC might be pretty much well balanced... because you actually have to aim properly and not some hip-shooting john wayne style which allows you to hit at 50% chance even with sloppy aiming....

[Willie Sauerland]

Ens, on 18 April 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

Weapons have been balanced and rebalanced

multiple times over the course of this game's life.

Once Host State Rewind is fully implemented,

I'm sure the weapons will be rebalanced again

due to the errors and bugs which have been fixed

in the interim as well as the new solutions

which have been implemented.

[Victor Morson]

Willie Sauerland, on 18 April 2013 - 01:04 PM, said:

Weapons have been balanced and rebalanced multiple times over the course of this game's life. Once Host State Rewind is fully implemented, I'm sure the weapons will be rebalanced again due to the errors and bugs which have been fixed in the interim as well as the new solutions which have been implemented.

All replies

to him should

formatted like

this.

[Kristov Kerensky]

TOGSolid, on 18 April 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

While I disagree on the effectiveness of convergence as it currently stands, I do agree that nerfing the weapon is just a ******** silly idea.

Also, I know better than to run straight at a PPC boat. Not everyone posting here is some scrub fresh out of a trial mech. I've been arguing that pinpoint aiming is an issue ever since the Gaussapult first showed up.

Funny how a lot of the FOTM mech builds people ***** about almost always come back to the pinpoint mechs. Boomcats, Gaussapults, Boomjagers, poptarting Cataphracts, and now all of the Highlanders. It always comes back to the same inherent problem but instead people ***** about the guns rather than really looking at what's going on. The two big exceptions are splatcats (which turned out to be the result of a splash damage glitch) and LRM boating (and LRMs need a massive overhaul of their own and are also glitched). Other than those two, it keeps going back to pinpoint damage.

Pinpoint accuracy takes skill, despite all the claims to the contrary, and most of the 6 PPC builds are driven by people with only moderate skill, as clearly shown by the high damage scores they generate. A very skilled pilot with 6 PPCs would have low damage and high kill counts, since it only take 4 PPCs to the cockpit to get a kill, and it's not all that hard to hit the cockpits on most Mechs. I do it fairly often, point of pride for me and something I've been doing since MW2, putting PPCs into the cockpit of a target at extreme range. I play a sniper type in most of the FPS games I play because I LIKE being able to put a shot on target and get that quick kill, outside of the AWP in CS that is..that never counted

Personally, I won't use a 6 PPC Stalker, it's a bad build that's far too easy to overcome, just use cover and get inside 90m. I personally love taking them apart with my Spider 5D with medium lasers. Takes a little time but it's SO much fun knowing they are cussing and screaming and yelling at me because they can't hit me and on the rare occasions they do, I'm too close for them to do any damage. I've also done this with my Jager using dual gauss..I get in close to Stalker and kill it inside 90m, where his shots are useless but MINE aren't. I've even been having fun using a Highlander for this purpose, gauss, medium lasers and SRM6s..get in close using cover and rip that Stalker apart while it useless overheats itself trying to hurt me inside min range.

I'm sorry, but complaining about getting killed by a weapon with a decent but FAR from long range and NO short range ability...that's rather silly and makes me want to just scream L2P...because it really IS a simple matter of learning to play the game.

[Willie Sauerland]

Victor Morson, on 18 April 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

All replies

to him should

formatted like

this.

It is still able to be read and

conforms to the rules.

Only problem I see is the fact

it is off topic.

[TOGSolid]

Kristov Kerensky, on 18 April 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

Pinpoint accuracy takes skill, despite all the claims to the contrary, and most of the 6 PPC builds are driven by people with only moderate skill, as clearly shown by the high damage scores they generate. A very skilled pilot with 6 PPCs would have low damage and high kill counts, since it only take 4 PPCs to the cockpit to get a kill, and it's not all that hard to hit the cockpits on most Mechs. I do it fairly often, point of pride for me and something I've been doing since MW2, putting PPCs into the cockpit of a target at extreme range. I play a sniper type in most of the FPS games I play because I LIKE being able to put a shot on target and get that quick kill, outside of the AWP in CS that is..that never counted

Personally, I won't use a 6 PPC Stalker, it's a bad build that's far too easy to overcome, just use cover and get inside 90m. I personally love taking them apart with my Spider 5D with medium lasers. Takes a little time but it's SO much fun knowing they are cussing and screaming and yelling at me because they can't hit me and on the rare occasions they do, I'm too close for them to do any damage. I've also done this with my Jager using dual gauss..I get in close to Stalker and kill it inside 90m, where his shots are useless but MINE aren't. I've even been having fun using a Highlander for this purpose, gauss, medium lasers and SRM6s..get in close using cover and rip that Stalker apart while it useless overheats itself trying to hurt me inside min range.

I'm sorry, but complaining about getting killed by a weapon with a decent but FAR from long range and NO short range ability...that's rather silly and makes me want to just scream L2P...because it really IS a simple matter of learning to play the game.

I don't want pinpoint aiming to go away at all and I apologize if that's what you got from my post. If you took the time to line up your shot then you absolutely deserve to core my *** instantly. My issues come more from the people hill humping and poptarting. The people who are only exposing themselves for a moment, letting rip with a gigantic alpha strike, and then getting right back into cover. That is not a good system and does not promote intelligent play.

All I'm asking for is for convergence to take a smidge longer. That's it really. Sniping in MWO should not be the slow motion version of jumping out of a corner and nailing someone with a railgun. It needs to take far more thought and preparation than it currently does.

I still run brawler builds gladly in the current environment and usually do well. That doesn't mean I don't think there's an overall issue with the gameplay though.

Edited by TOGSolid, 18 April 2013 - 01:48 PM.

[Pandamcpanda]

Ironically the only solution i see to solving the pop tart problem isnt ppc itself, its jumpjets. Simply put, buff jumpjets distance and speed by 4x, and make it produce heat to boot. lets see someone trying to poptart when they are rocketing 120 meters forward at 200 kph

[Willie Sauerland]

Pandamcpanda, on 18 April 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

Ironically the only solution i see to solving the pop tart problem isnt ppc itself, its jumpjets. Simply put, buff jumpjets distance and speed by 4x, and make it produce heat to boot. lets see someone trying to poptart when they are rocketing 120 meters forward at 200 kph

While that would be funny to watch,

I would hate to try and shoot a spider

with jump jets set to these levels.

It is hard enough to hit them now

as it is.

[Pandamcpanda]

Well the thing is, jumpjets are supposed to get you into position or jump over things, not giving you a firing platform like mech assault. Make it so jumpjets are also bought in sets so you cant just have 1 to cheese.

[TOGSolid]

Willie Sauerland, on 18 April 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

While that would be funny to watch,

I would hate to try and shoot a spider

with jump jets set to these levels.

It is hard enough to hit them now

as it is.

I can see it now: 12 jumpjets on a Spider. *hits the spacebar* *breaks through the skybox and ends up in an entirely different match*

[Kristov Kerensky]

TOGSolid, it currently does take time for convergence to happen, and poptarters really have crappy convergence if they ARE just popping up and firing blindly. I've used the Cata 3D for jump sniping, and you'd be amazed how often people will stand perfectly still after they see me pop up the first time. Guess what..next time I come up, you've already been targeted BEFORE I hit my jets, I know exactly where you are and I'm pointing my guns at you before I get off the ground. THAT is what make poptarters deadly, shared targeting and lack of people moving. I can pop up and take potshots at people I glimpse suddenly but I know those shots are going to be spread out and not do enough concentrated damage to be worthwhile..but..that target WILL in most cases come to a screeching halt and WAIT for me to jump again, giving me a beautiful target.

It really is a simple L2P issue there, poptarters taking pot shots don't do great pinpoint damage, convergence actually works against them for that, so when you see one, do NOT stand still and wait for it to pop up again, odds are, it's already got all it's guns pointed at you and will have those few seconds needed for convergence before he fires. Most poptarters don't move much, just up and down, so YOU move and keep an eye on that location, he will come up again and you CAN put rounds on target without getting fired upon yourself. And look for someone somewhere targeting you beside that poptarter, shared targeting is what makes poptarts so deadly, just as 3rd person cameras did for MW4. Use cover, hide behind it for 3+ seconds to any targeting on you is lost(adv target decay is a common poptart module), THEN move..and move in a direction they won't expect, just stepping right back out where you were standing before is no better then standing in the open all along.

Pandamcpanda..jump jets are to allow you to move over obstacles, get into positions otherwise not accessible OR to get you a higher firing line so you can fire DOWN on the targets AS you jump. That's actually allowed in TT, you can fire weapons while in the air using jets. Yes there is a negative(positive actually TT, works backwards, +s bad, -s good) to your hit chance. MWO could definitely benefit from a serious cockpit shake when using JJ, and that is from someone who frequently uses JJ while firing!

And just having 1 single JJ doesn't give you all that much, you can't jump as high as someone with 2 or more, despite what people claim. I took the JJ off my Highlander because in order to get a USEFUL height from them, I needed all 3, and at 2 tons apiece...I can use that tonnage to better effect right now with a bigger engine. Once we get collisions and I can do DFAs, I'll drop those 3 JJ back into my Highlanders..until then..1 isn't enough for anything but getting over small obstacles, it's definitely not enough for poptarting.

[cyberFluke]

Pac Man, on 17 April 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

To balance the PPCs, you need a whole ton of Heatsinks. A Stalker with 6 PPCs isn't going to be able to Alpha strike more than a few times.

I think a more workable solution to this is some much more severe consequences to high-heat shutdowns and overrides. If you fire your 6 PPCs at 80% heat, and end up (logically) in the 120% heat capacity, then your PPCs should have a chance to literally melt. Or your internals suffer some serious damage right away, not only when you power back up.

This. At the moment you can be at 99% heat and alpha, shut down, and not take any damage. This is silly and needs to be changed. The higher your heat, the more your mech should glitch out, weapon inaccuracy, hud twitches, sensor ghosts etc.
Make heat actually mean something other than an "energy bar" by another name.

[ElLocoMarko]

But they do need to finish all these mechanics changes before spending any real time on damage/heat/refire.
SRM host state rewind.
LRM/Streak missile travel/hit location
And then adjust damage/refire/heat.

Changing the mechanics throws off everything. Gotta get it done first.
Now if something is making the game unplayable (like LRMPocalypse) then a quick massive 50% nerf should be hammered out and then left in place for at least a month if not two.

And I certainly hope that PGI stopped listening to the forums a long time ago because it's just a bunch of camps that hate each other and get spitting mad if something other than their stuff gets buffed. My camp: Graphs and spreadsheets. I might be able to recruit hammerreborn but right now I have a feeling I am in a gang of 1. They should use a 3D surface plot of total_tonnage/HPS/DPS to set initial values and then alter them based on game play.

[cyberFluke]

Kristov Kerensky, on 18 April 2013 - 02:10 PM, said:

TOGSolid, it currently does take time for convergence to happen, and poptarters really have crappy convergence if they ARE just popping up and firing blindly. I've used the Cata 3D for jump sniping, and you'd be amazed how often people will stand perfectly still after they see me pop up the first time. Guess what..next time I come up, you've already been targeted BEFORE I hit my jets, I know exactly where you are and I'm pointing my guns at you before I get off the ground. THAT is what make poptarters deadly, shared targeting and lack of people moving. I can pop up and take potshots at people I glimpse suddenly but I know those shots are going to be spread out and not do enough concentrated damage to be worthwhile..but..that target WILL in most cases come to a screeching halt and WAIT for me to jump again, giving me a beautiful target.

It really is a simple L2P issue there...

No it really isn't. If you need two jumps to put all your dmg on a pin point, you're not as good as you think you are. It's nothing to do with convergence and everything to do with your reaction time at the minute as convergence is set waaay to fast to be of any consequence.

[Bishop Steiner]

RedSkotina, on 18 April 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

we

just

need

report

him

good luck with that.

[Pandamcpanda]

M

Kristov Kerensky, on 18 April 2013 - 02:10 PM, said:

TOGSolid, it currently does take time for convergence to happen, and poptarters really have crappy convergence if they ARE just popping up and firing blindly. I've used the Cata 3D for jump sniping, and you'd be amazed how often people will stand perfectly still after they see me pop up the first time. Guess what..next time I come up, you've already been targeted BEFORE I hit my jets, I know exactly where you are and I'm pointing my guns at you before I get off the ground. THAT is what make poptarters deadly, shared targeting and lack of people moving. I can pop up and take potshots at people I glimpse suddenly but I know those shots are going to be spread out and not do enough concentrated damage to be worthwhile..but..that target WILL in most cases come to a screeching halt and WAIT for me to jump again, giving me a beautiful target.

It really is a simple L2P issue there, poptarters taking pot shots don't do great pinpoint damage, convergence actually works against them for that, so when you see one, do NOT stand still and wait for it to pop up again, odds are, it's already got all it's guns pointed at you and will have those few seconds needed for convergence before he fires. Most poptarters don't move much, just up and down, so YOU move and keep an eye on that location, he will come up again and you CAN put rounds on target without getting fired upon yourself. And look for someone somewhere targeting you beside that poptarter, shared targeting is what makes poptarts so deadly, just as 3rd person cameras did for MW4. Use cover, hide behind it for 3+ seconds to any targeting on you is lost(adv target decay is a common poptart module), THEN move..and move in a direction they won't expect, just stepping right back out where you were standing before is no better then standing in the open all along.

Pandamcpanda..jump jets are to allow you to move over obstacles, get into positions otherwise not accessible OR to get you a higher firing line so you can fire DOWN on the targets AS you jump. That's actually allowed in TT, you can fire weapons while in the air using jets. Yes there is a negative(positive actually TT, works backwards, +s bad, -s good) to your hit chance. MWO could definitely benefit from a serious cockpit shake when using JJ, and that is from someone who frequently uses JJ while firing!

And just having 1 single JJ doesn't give you all that much, you can't jump as high as someone with 2 or more, despite what people claim. I took the JJ off my Highlander because in order to get a USEFUL height from them, I needed all 3, and at 2 tons apiece...I can use that tonnage to better effect right now with a bigger engine. Once we get collisions and I can do DFAs, I'll drop those 3 JJ back into my Highlanders..until then..1 isn't enough for anything but getting over small obstacles, it's definitely not enough for poptarting.

My point was if you did buff jj's, you should bundle them to prevent 1 giving as much lift as 3 do atm. And like i said, rocketing at 200 kph would give you that added hit penalty thats present in tabletop.