44 replies to this topic

[MustrumRidcully]

Why are poptarts and alpha strike boats so popular right now?

• Because they work.
  
• Because there is a new mech in town that can do it, and everyone wants to test the new mech.
  
• Because LRMs were severely weakened.

The first point is particularly interesting to me.
They work. If they didn't work, people would ditch them quickly.
Why do they work?

1) Convergence.
If you fire multiple weapons with similar properties together, all your weapons will hit the same spot. (Convergence isn't actually 100 % perfect, so sometimes they actually don't hit the same spot. But your chances of hitting the same spot are good.

2) Heat Capacity
Many of these builds require a high heat capacity. 6 PPCs require the ability to deal with 48 heat in one shot. It would be bad to overheat on every alpha.

3) A certain damage threshold is reached.
6 PPCs deal 60 damage. 60 damage is enough to take off most of the armour on an Atlas arm or side torso, a second hit would destroy it. 3 hits would core an Atlas.
4 PPCs and 1 Gauss Rifle deal 55 damage. 2 hits would core a Cataphract.
2 PPCs and 1 Gauss Rifle deal 35 damage. 2 Hits would core a Cicada. 3 Hits would core a Hunchback.

The first 2 are enabling mechanics - these mechanics allow alpha strike builds in the first place and give them advantages over chain-firing and sustained DPS builds.

But the 3rd is probably crucial why they work - the damage you can inflict is really significant, and it doesn't take very long to severely hurt any enemy you face. Because you can kill many mechs in 2 hits, you don't need sustainable firepower. Most players will probably not be good and lucky enough to hit the same mech on the same hit location twice in a row, but with range and possibly jump jets at your aid, you have time to cool off a bit and try again.

And if you have team mates that can do the same and you focus fire a bit, you have a good chance of taking out enemy mechs quickly. And especially teamed up, the damage can come so fast that a defender might not realize that he needs to react and get into cover before it's too late.

How to deal with this I leave as an exercise to the reader. (For now, at least).

[WolvesX]

I love that
    MustrumRidcully
!

GJ again and again!

Edited by WolvesX, 18 April 2013 - 08:16 AM.

[Sam Slade]

Deal with this by min/maxing LRMs.

Give them a really solid damage buff against armor(so not as damaging to internals) ... I mean make them scary again.

Give LRMs a really scary heat increase(a la 6 PPC STK),

Drop the LRM Ammo per tonne by a scary margin(so your 'easy bake' shots as many call them become a tactical decision).

Reduce the range of TAG to 450m again.

Reduce range of some(most) mechs sensors

Perhaps buff NARC activation time.

Test.

The idea being that poptarting gives away your position and allows LRM spotters to close in and light you up for a horrible armor stripping LRM barrage. I used the word scary in there a good deal because scary is the best way to counter(not remove) poptarting... I think this change would also make good LRMing a skill rather then a point n' click.

Edited by Sam Slade, 18 April 2013 - 08:22 AM.

[Volthorne]

Sam Slade, on 18 April 2013 - 08:16 AM, said:

Deal with this by min/maxing LRMs.

Give them a really solid damage buff against armor(so not as damaging to internals) ... I mean make them scary again.

Give LRMs a really scary heat increase(a la 6 PPC STK),

Drop the LRM Ammo per tonne by a scary margin(so your 'easy bake' shots as many call them become a tactical decision).

Reduce the range of TAG to 450m again.

Reduce range of some(most) mechs sensors

Perhaps buff NARC activation time.

Test.

The idea being that poptarting gives away your position and allows LRM spotters to close in and light you up for a horrible armor stripping LRM barrage. I used the word scary in there a good deal because scary is the best way to counter(not remove) poptarting... I think this change would also make good LRMing a skill rather then a point n' click.

And all of this is pointless if people still have "WARNING: MISSILES" blaring the SECOND that a single missile leaves the tubes. The combination of this absurdly early warning + ECM + slow-as-hell LRMs is what REALLY broke them.

[Sug]

How did the LRM nerf strengthen pop tarts? By the time you get a lock they're already on their way back down.

[Ngamok]

Hey, let's add another thread about poptarts.

[AlmightyAeng]

MustrumRidcully, on 18 April 2013 - 08:04 AM, said:

Why are poptarts and alpha strike boats so popular right now?

• Because they work.
  
• Because there is a new mech in town that can do it, and everyone wants to test the new mech.
  
• Because LRMs were severely weakened.

The first point is particularly interesting to me.
They work. If they didn't work, people would ditch them quickly.
Why do they work?

1) Convergence.
If you fire multiple weapons with similar properties together, all your weapons will hit the same spot. (Convergence isn't actually 100 % perfect, so sometimes they actually don't hit the same spot. But your chances of hitting the same spot are good.

2) Heat Capacity
Many of these builds require a high heat capacity. 6 PPCs require the ability to deal with 48 heat in one shot. It would be bad to overheat on every alpha.

3) A certain damage threshold is reached.
6 PPCs deal 60 damage. 60 damage is enough to take off most of the armour on an Atlas arm or side torso, a second hit would destroy it. 3 hits would core an Atlas.
4 PPCs and 1 Gauss Rifle deal 55 damage. 2 hits would core a Cataphract.
2 PPCs and 1 Gauss Rifle deal 35 damage. 2 Hits would core a Cicada. 3 Hits would core a Hunchback.

The first 2 are enabling mechanics - these mechanics allow alpha strike builds in the first place and give them advantages over chain-firing and sustained DPS builds.

But the 3rd is probably crucial why they work - the damage you can inflict is really significant, and it doesn't take very long to severely hurt any enemy you face. Because you can kill many mechs in 2 hits, you don't need sustainable firepower. Most players will probably not be good and lucky enough to hit the same mech on the same hit location twice in a row, but with range and possibly jump jets at your aid, you have time to cool off a bit and try again.

And if you have team mates that can do the same and you focus fire a bit, you have a good chance of taking out enemy mechs quickly. And especially teamed up, the damage can come so fast that a defender might not realize that he needs to react and get into cover before it's too late.

How to deal with this I leave as an exercise to the reader. (For now, at least).

You forgot:

4) Most people take ERPPC's over PPC's, and the result is that they can brawl just as well as they snipe...so flanking them and getting in close doesn't really counter anything.

[King Arthur IV]

mainly the 3rd answer.

the game favors bursty builds over dame over time. think of it this way. 4 man group all have high damage alpha's regardless of heat. all four focus the same mech and it dies FAST. heat is not a problem because you can go hide a bit since you can do it all over again together.

[IceCase88]

Bold and refreshing thread! Can we stop the Jihad on Pop Tarts?



They are yummy and delicious. Enough said.

[M4NTiC0R3X]

The only way to deal w/ it is to get playing the meta game, which is currently consisting of long range huge alpha direct fire damage and heavy armor. If you don't have direct fire or heavy armor... get some. It does not hurt to become personally familiarized w/ powerful tactics.

[Bobdolemite]

IMO LRM's are the reason why sniping is so prevalent. sniping is the best way to engage at range and commit area denial and choke points since LRMS are slow and broken generally. And yes sometimes poptarts can negate some LRM's by LOSing, but I still believe they kept them in check.

LRM's keep poptarts in check by:

1) making it so that they cant continually jump and shoot (or risk taking damage from missile volleys)

2) making it so that poptarts cannot make a tactical retreat across open ground

3) giving the team more options in flanking

poptarts are so popular right now because of the new mech and the ballistics rewind period. They were always a popular choice though even when everything was working. The OP said it best people use them because they work. Spotting / snipping with JJ's is a valid tactic.

As to the ERPPC thing, you do see that a lot but in my experience I prefer either a mix 4xppc 2xerppc or straight ppc. The heat difference in alpha firing is staggering between the two. ERPPC boats are generally the ones that spend 1/4th the match powered down....

[LordBraxton]

There is no point in closing with the enemy because SRMs lost all their bite

This is why we are playing snipewarrioroffline

LRMs don't do **** vs a good tart, they lock on then hit the hill he is popping behind.... then he moves and repeats the process...

Edited by LordBraxton, 18 April 2013 - 09:19 AM.

[Blackadder]

i have no issues with them, except for the fact that when pugging i do more damage then 95% of them on a regular basis. Frankly they are more of a liability then an asset, and now we have hordes of long range sniper players who cant snipe, and are ineffective in matches. matchmaking has gone to hell since the patch.

[darkkterror]

Toaster strudels are better.

[Thundercles]

Let's not forget everyone and their brother's roommate's cousin's uncle Hank being able to trot around in heavies/assaults.

[therealswilly]

LordBraxton, on 18 April 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

There is no point in closing with the enemy because SRMs lost all their bite

This is why we are playing snipewarrioroffline

LRMs don't do **** vs a good tart, they lock on then hit the hill he is popping behind.... then he moves and repeats the process...

As a Hunchback 4SP pilot, I can tell you right now that my mech and I will never be taken seriously. We're the first to be targeted even when SRMs were good damage dealers. I'm hell on wheels in the closer together brawling matches but with the new maps, I'm having issues because it takes too long to close in. I can't actually make it without losing at least a large chunk of my armor. It gets annoying because then I just sit there till I get surrounded by what's left of the opposing side and chewed apart.

This balancing shouldn't invalidate mechs, it should make each mech to someone's certain play style, I do damage over time and in brawling matches I'm about 400+ if things go well. When things go badly its about 200 and below.

I think the main problem is that LRMs have become something that can't always be used, SRMs were nerfed for whatever reason. And now we have big honking mechs that care fire weapons from long distance without any issues, I take heavy penalties because my mech build is meant for short range combat. Long range mechs don't take ANY penalties for setting up long range. It shouldn't be that way.

[jay35]

MustrumRidcully, on 18 April 2013 - 08:04 AM, said:

3) A certain damage threshold is reached.
4 PPCs and 1 Gauss Rifle deal 55 damage. 2 hits would core a Cataphract.
2 PPCs and 1 Gauss Rifle deal 35 damage. 2 Hits would core a Cicada. 3 Hits would core a Hunchback.

Sounds about right. But really, practically nothing mounts 4 PPCs plus a Gauss. There are a couple builds where you can mount 3 PPC and a Gauss, which is 45 damage.
Also, you're assuming perfect aim.

Quote

[the 3rd reason] is probably crucial why they work - the damage you can inflict is really significant, and it doesn't take very long to severely hurt any enemy you face. Because you can kill many mechs in 2 hits, you don't need sustainable firepower. Most players will probably not be good and lucky enough to hit the same mech on the same hit location twice in a row, but with range and possibly jump jets at your aid, you have time to cool off a bit and try again.

3 PPCs + 1 Gauss is roughly the same targeted damage as an AC/40 K2 or Jager. It's really not any different in the damage output. Remember the Jager also has 2xML, so technically they're dealing more damage than the mythical PPC/Gauss sniper beast.

Quote

And if you have team mates that can do the same and you focus fire a bit, you have a good chance of taking out enemy mechs quickly.

That's the case regardless of builds.

Quote

And especially teamed up, the damage can come so fast that a defender might not realize that he needs to react and get into cover before it's too late.

Situational awareness is always important on the field of battle.

Quote

How to deal with this I leave as an exercise to the reader. (For now, at least).

Give it time for the Highlander to stop being the FOTM and balance to come back naturally, as it always does. Last month the AC/40 Jager was all the rage and the QQ threads were prolific. Then, magically, new content arrived and now they're not the most common mech on the field. What changed? There was no nerf. None was needed. People mastered their Jager variants and moved on. New content arrived. People learned how to counter AC/40 Jagers and to better prioritize their targets according to danger/risk/threat level. All of these factors played a part.

An unwillingness to learn and adapt is the primary source of 90% of the QQ and nerf request threads.

Edited by jay35, 18 April 2013 - 09:49 AM.

[Flash Yoghurt]

I really hope this is just FOTM and will return to normal soon. I pilot mostly Medium and Heavy mechs and at the moment the game is barely fun to me. I round a corner or crest a hill to check were the enemy is and before I can go back or often even react at all I eat some huge Alpha to CT. If this happens more then once I'm basically out of the game or at the very least severly crippeled.
The problem is not only with poptards, though they are annoying and look stupid as hell, but the current "alpha" Meta.
I came to MW:O because it offered somewhat slower gameplay and longer times to react when you came under fire, compared to most other modern shooters were you are practically dead if something starts hitting you.
Now there are matches were I would even survive better If i'd play Hawken or something similarly fast.

Even Torsotwisting ™ does not elleviate this problem as they can just wait for you to twist back to fire...

[Kraven Kor]

therealswilly, on 18 April 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

As a Hunchback 4SP pilot, I can tell you right now that my mech and I will never be taken seriously. We're the first to be targeted even when SRMs were good damage dealers. I'm hell on wheels in the closer together brawling matches but with the new maps, I'm having issues because it takes too long to close in. I can't actually make it without losing at least a large chunk of my armor. It gets annoying because then I just sit there till I get surrounded by what's left of the opposing side and chewed apart.

This balancing shouldn't invalidate mechs, it should make each mech to someone's certain play style, I do damage over time and in brawling matches I'm about 400+ if things go well. When things go badly its about 200 and below.

I think the main problem is that LRMs have become something that can't always be used, SRMs were nerfed for whatever reason. And now we have big honking mechs that care fire weapons from long distance without any issues, I take heavy penalties because my mech build is meant for short range combat. Long range mechs don't take ANY penalties for setting up long range. It shouldn't be that way.

I mostly agree, but I still have my "best" matches, in general, in my MPulse + SRM Centurions.

And Caustic is still, for me, the hardest map so far as closing to long range foes. Plenty of cover available for short range fights by moving in and out of caldera, devil's den, and the low ridges or whatever. But trying to get from, say, Theta to Sigma if they set up on the hills is really hard unless you go way out and around.

Alpine is the second hardest. Tourmaline I only have issues if I (stupidly) try to cross no-man's land at D4/D5 or whatever.

[therealswilly]

Kraven Kor, on 18 April 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:

I mostly agree, but I still have my "best" matches, in general, in my MPulse + SRM Centurions.

And Caustic is still, for me, the hardest map so far as closing to long range foes. Plenty of cover available for short range fights by moving in and out of caldera, devil's den, and the low ridges or whatever. But trying to get from, say, Theta to Sigma if they set up on the hills is really hard unless you go way out and around.

Alpine is the second hardest. Tourmaline I only have issues if I (stupidly) try to cross no-man's land at D4/D5 or whatever.

I have no problems normally with Caustic because there is a big O in the center of no man's land. My issue with caustic is heat, but I chain fire manually so I don't have heat issues normally.

Alpine and the new map is a ******* nightmare, especially because everyone sets up in the same spots and the only thing to get by is flank. But as mediums, its our damn job and there are no other mediums to help with that.

I'm not say its impossible to get good matches, normally in 4 mans I'm cleaning house. Pugging, different story. Actual matches that matter? I get trashed because I can't compete with mechs that trash me in two shots while it takes me spinning around them for a good 2 minutes harrasing and stripping them.

Edited by therealswilly, 18 April 2013 - 10:51 AM.