44 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

M4NTiC0R3X, on 18 April 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

The only way to deal w/ it is to get playing the meta game, which is currently consisting of long range huge alpha direct fire damage and heavy armor. If you don't have direct fire or heavy armor... get some. It does not hurt to become personally familiarized w/ powerful tactics.

I wonder which New Meta game I will have to create next.

[MustrumRidcully]

jay35, on 18 April 2013 - 09:46 AM, said:

Sounds about right. But really, practically nothing mounts 4 PPCs plus a Gauss. There are a couple builds where you can mount 3 PPC and a Gauss, which is 45 damage.
Also, you're assuming perfect aim.



3 PPCs + 1 Gauss is roughly the same targeted damage as an AC/40 K2 or Jager. It's really not any different in the damage output. Remember the Jager also has 2xML, so technically they're dealing more damage than the mythical PPC/Gauss sniper beast.

That's why the Jagermech is/was also popular. But doing it at range, from behind cover, is even better than doing it up close.

Whether the FOTM will disappear or next depends on whether it's actually viable.

Most people run on new mechs and try to figure out if they are good. That's inevitable. But the mechs and builds that are good, they'll stay around. We will see what will happen, and I am not making any predicitons like "the game will forever be called Sniperwarrior Online" here. I would just not be surprised if the focus would stay on long range alpha strike builds for now.

[Vectoron The Black Minister]

People want the instant and easy (I WIN) button. LRMs used to be that when they were horridly broken. Now the new thing is Poptarts. Seriously, the more on a team the greater the chances that team will win. Ive seen this in 8 drops now. Just means more balancing needs to come into play.

[Smk]

Sug, on 18 April 2013 - 08:50 AM, said:

How did the LRM nerf strengthen pop tarts? By the time you get a lock they're already on their way back down.

This has always puzzled me. LRMs are literally the worst weapon you could use against a poptart sniper. He jumps, he shoots, he falls back down behind his cover and chills until the missile warning goes away and then he does it again. He's still putting out damage and the LRM guy has done nothing.

[MustrumRidcully]

Smk, on 18 April 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:

This has always puzzled me. LRMs are literally the worst weapon you could use against a poptart sniper. He jumps, he shoots, he falls back down behind his cover and chills until the missile warning goes away and then he does it again. He's still putting out damage and the LRM guy has done nothing.

I think people tend to react to "Missile Incoming" warnings very defensively. And I believe with target decay, you might actually be able to keep lock on the poptarter long enough. But that said, I am not really an LRM user.

Also, LRMs change the combat dynamic. Without LRM boats waiting for a target share, a flanker is pretty alone. So the lone medium or light that somehow manages to get around the Field of Death can't do much and is engaging a big risk - with little reward. If he has LRM support on his side, he will also trigger a rain of missiles, and this will soften the enemies. Softened up Snipers can be engaged by softened up Assault mechs or other mechs that had to walk through that field of death or at least couldn't completely avoid it.

Of course, this is no argument by me in favor of returning LRMs to the OPness they used to be in several incarnations of the game. They merely need to be worth their weight.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 18 April 2013 - 10:13 PM.

[Flash Yoghurt]

I played a pretty large number of games this evening (here in germany, for the americans/canadians its early in the morning) and at the moment the situation seems to be even worse then during the LRM-Hell, or at least comparable. LRMs at least give you a warning an travell very slow, making them somewhat avoidable. PPCs, Gauss and LLs don't and it shows.
I tried to pilot my Centurion for a few games and it was horrible, those were some of the worst matches I ever had. I dont mind dying or loosing but this?
I round a building in upper city, three(!) Alpha boats blast me to hell before I can fire even a single shot...
The time-to-kill is just so extremly short now, its nearly unplayable for anyone bringing anykind of sustained damage weapon.

Edited by Flash Yoghurt, 19 April 2013 - 02:40 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Of course, this weekend is bound to be worse, since it's Assault vs the World, and the Highlander and Stalker are Assaults, and the Highlander is also new. I recommend to opt in and drive an Assault.

Or maybe drive a Light. At least then you might outmanoeuvre them.

[Ngamok]

Jumping makes a 'Mech harder to hit, but the accuracy of weapons fitted to the jumping 'Mech is also adversely affected


From Sarna. But not implemented here.

[DeadlyNerd]

Good thing there's always someone to point out what we already know, and have been reminded of a dozen times, with a wall of text.
God, I love these forums, ego's so thick you can cut it with a knife.

[Anton Shiningstar]

Why we are able to shoot while jumping is beyond me. The G-Force of lifting a Mech off the ground should be enough to stop even thinking of firing weapons. How much trouble would it be to put an inhibitor in place to stop folks from firing while jumping?

Edited by Anton Shiningstar, 20 April 2013 - 09:07 AM.

[Bagheera]

MustrumRidcully, on 18 April 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:

Most people run on new mechs and try to figure out if they are good. That's inevitable. But the mechs and builds that are good, they'll stay around. We will see what will happen, and I am not making any predicitons like "the game will forever be called Sniperwarrior Online" here. I would just not be surprised if the focus would stay on long range alpha strike builds for now.

I agree with you in spirit.

It does occur to me, though, that the nature of this game will likely always favor the high-alpha (DPA for you MMO types) builds versus DPS builds. This is at any range.

Take the AC2 Jager for example. I run 5 on mine, for the lulz, and it takes 6 full volleys to reach 6-PPC alpha strike damage. Assuming equal skill at aiming by both players, the 6PPC guy can fire, twist, fire, twist while the AC2 boat has to maintain facing longer to put down the damage - which means being unable to spread damage to survive longer.

This extrapolates out to most, if not all DPA vs. DPS scenarios. Even knowing this, I still run that build for the lol-factor, but I have no illusions about it.

Not defending it, but I am not certain of the solution either.

Edited by Bagheera, 20 April 2013 - 10:25 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

In a game with convergence, alphas will always be preferable. But the game allows alphas that dealreally a lot of damage in one shot due to partially the high heat capacity, and partially the high damage/shot compared to armour values. 60 damage every 3 seconds against 120 armour just requires 2 shots to get through. There is no need to sustain your fire in this model.

The correct response tot his issue depends on whether combat is really too fast if it can be over in 3 seconds, or if it's too fast because it takes 2-3 shots with the right alpha to core a mech? If 3 seconds is too fast, we need more armour. If it's just that we want it to be more than 2-3 shots (and every shot requiring another moment of aiming and concentration to find the righ ttarget), we can try to work with heat capacity limitations, max weapon group sizes, "recoil" or what not...

[Lionheart2012]

Quote

The combination of this absurdly early warning + ECM + slow-as-hell LRMs is what REALLY broke them.

4/20/2013 - took down two atlases and a stalker. LRMs not broken.

[neviu]

LHKE2012, on 20 April 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

4/20/2013 - took down two atlases and a stalker. LRMs not broken.

cookie for you my dear sir,

[MustrumRidcully]

One thing I would find interesting to discuss how alpha-strike ability and damage vs armour ratios shape the game might be spreadhsheetwarrioring a bit again and determining something like "DPS5/10" - potential damage per second over a short period of time like 5 or 10 seconds. This would probably give some insights what actually works for the "alpha-strike" potential of mechs.

Just to give an example why short-term damage output can be very different from the absolute DPS value:
AC/2 fired over 5 seconds can get off 11 shots for 22 damage. DPS would suggest it to be 20.
Gauss Rifle fired over 5 seconds can get of two shots for 30 damage. DPS would suggest it to be 18.75
PPC fired over 5 seconds can get of two shots for 20 damage. DPS would suggest it to be 16.67.

[Mason Grimm]

LHKE2012, on 20 April 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

4/20/2013 - took down two atlases and a stalker. LRMs not broken.

You didn't do that by yourself that is for sure. You just happened to get the kill. Anyone can look for targets of opportunity and rain down LRMs upon an engaged mech.

You DID do a good deal of damage, that is true but I would really like to see a video of that fight before I actually comment on whether your screenshot of the final breakdown is an accurate representation of LRMs or not. I know some guys who boat LRMs (or used to), and empty their racks, who have a hard time breaking 600 on their best game whereas I can break 600 in my Jenner with as much, or less, effort.

[Corvus Antaka]

because ECM means scouts cant effectively get behind the enemy and lock for their LRM boats, which themselves are completely neutered due to poor damage and trajectories.

[Flash Yoghurt]

Maybe "spreedsheating" this out will help the Devs and the community see the problem... My excel and ststistics skills are unfortunately lacking.

[Xeven]

Also Most mechs are to slow. Faster Mechs would mean less accuracy both on alpha stikes and pop tarting. Speed the pace up.

[Xeven]

Anton Shiningstar, on 20 April 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

Why we are able to shoot while jumping is beyond me. The G-Force of lifting a Mech off the ground should be enough to stop even thinking of firing weapons. How much trouble would it be to put an inhibitor in place to stop folks from firing while jumping?

AC-130 acurately fires the 105 Howitzer in flight at 20000 feet going 300 MPH in a wind storm. Gyros and stabilizers are wonderful things when connected to a computer.

Edited by Xeven, 22 April 2013 - 01:17 PM.