220 replies to this topic

[TOGSolid]

Und3rSc0re, on 18 April 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

World of tanks has a successful repair rearm system

BHhaahahahahahaha
*inhales*
hahahahahahaahhaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

Oh wait, you're serious.

[Fire and Salt]

The possibility of losing money on a match is a seriously bad idea.

What if you have 0 chills and you get decimated? Do you go into debt? Does your mech stay broken? Or do we just make it so any negative chill account becomes 0? If so you best buy a small laser after every win, and then sell them all to get that endo steel.


It wouldn't make it any harder for me... I would just use the same mech instead of adding to my collection...

It would really hurt the less skilled players. I say let the noobs grinding away to get their 15 million bill mech... That's good, they will appreciate it. But don't make it so they can only use it once, and then need to play 5 games in a crap much to fix it.



I would be fine if they added some sort of modifier to encourage 'cheap' mechs, though. But you should never lose money, no matter what.

Edited by Fire and Salt, 18 April 2013 - 11:53 AM.

[DaPwnageMachine]

Fut, on 18 April 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

Yes!! Bring it on!
This is the attitude that people should have. Part of the fun in Mechwarrior is that it's challenging.
People who don't want R&R back are either lazy, or they only like games when they're easy.

To me, MW:O won't feel like Battletech until R&R is brought back.

Unfortuantely our beta is full of players who want things to be easier, easier, easier, easier to make up for their lack of skill or committment to get better.

TOGSolid, on 18 April 2013 - 11:32 AM, said:

Yeah, that's basically what happens in every R&R thread. The supporters always end up resorting to rude comments and vague rants about "how there's so much that could be done to make R&R work."

You have still yet to post anything other than to bash me or anyone else who atually likes the idea. So you're no better than me in your own terms, clown. Stop posting here we got your message lol.

But lets say that I agree with you for a second. Let's just keep the game the way it is now, where the PPC is the same PPC that it as last patch but people are crying because other people are abusing them since they can't abuse LRMs or SRMs anymore. Now PPCs are going to get nerfed into the ground again because of all the crying and the next weapon is gonna be abused. The cycle will never end.

This is what your game has become after R&R was taken out. No depth. No strategy. No thought. Take the next prime build and go until people like ToG Solid make 500 posts about it and it is not good anymore. I'm sorry but this game was much funner when there was more depth to it. When you had to play better because not doing so would cost you the in-game money you have to earn. It was actually challenging. It's a shame.

Fire and Salt, on 18 April 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

The possibility of losing money on a match is a seriously bad idea.

What if you have 0 chills and you get decimated? Do you go into debt? Does your much stay broken? Or do we just make it so any negative chill account becomes 0? If so you best buy a small laser after every win, and then sell them all to get that endo steel.


It wouldn't make it any harder for me... I would just use the same much instead of adding to my collection...

It would really hurt the less skilled players. I say let the noobs trying away to get their 15 million bill mech... That's good, they will appreciate it. But don't make it so they can only use it once, and then need to play 5 games in a crap much to fix it.

Obviously you wouldnt go into debt. You could just run Trial mechs until you have enough to repair. Crap mechs? I have enjoyable and successful variants saved from just about every chassis except for the raven and centurion. There is no crap mech in this game. This all goes back to people not wanting to play anything but the "prime build". I played my Commando until I saved up for my Awesome back in the day and the Commando became one of my favorite mechs even if it initially wasn't. Again, this community is at fault here not the system.

The desire for instant satisfaction and not challenge is what makes this game bad now. That's the player base in MWO. I would even take a wipe and lose all my mechs and money just to start scratch again for this system, that's how much I would appreciate it. It's a shame that the majority of you all wouldn't do the same.

Edited by DaPwnageMachine, 18 April 2013 - 11:52 AM.

[TOGSolid]

Fut, on 18 April 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

Not sure about you, or anybody else for that matter, but when I think about MW:O in it's entirety I think of Community Warfare.
What we have right now isn't what MW:O is supposed to be, the game is supposed to be a perpetual galaxy at war - not just 1 off battles with random people for random reasons.

Read my post edit:

Quote

The argument could come up in CW that merc corps as a whole could have some sort of general repair bay costs for protracted campaigns into enemy territory and THEN R&R would be a very interesting mechanic. Having to maintain a positive cash flow during a major assault to ensure you can keep fielding an army sounds like a lot of fun to me, but then, I played Eve Online for six years and that's besides the point.

I'd love to have some sort of campaign costs involved with CW because then they would make a lot of sense. You could have Alliances, NAPs, merc corps supporting each other's pushes only to backstab each other. But again, I'm an old Eve vet and thrive on that kinda ****.

Quote

But lets say that I agree with you for a second. Let's just keep the game the way it is now, where the PPC is the same PPC that it as last patch but people are crying because other people are abusing them since they can't abuse LRMs or SRMs anymore. Now PPCs are going to get nerfed into the ground again because of all the crying and the next weapon is gonna be abused. The cycle will never end.

This is what your game has become after R&R was taken out. No depth. No strategy. No thought. Take the next prime build and go until people like ToG Solid make 500 posts about it and it is not good anymore. I'm sorry but this game was much funner when there was more depth to it. When you had to play better because not doing so would cost you the in-game money you have to earn. It was actually challenging. It's a shame.

Except I haven't done any of that. :3

PPCs and Gauss Rifles are fine. Keep trying to build me up as your personal strawman though, it's kind of adorable.

Quote

You have still yet to post anything other than to bash me or anyone else who atually likes the idea.

You're still doing EXACTLY what I said people like you would do and proving me right with every post you make. If you want to have a quality debate on R&R then the burden of proof is ENTIRELY on you.

My challenge stands: Write out a quality R&R system that avoids the pitfalls of the old one. I love having a good mechanics discussion but you have so far failed to say anything of value.

Edited by TOGSolid, 18 April 2013 - 11:52 AM.

[Echo6]

I kinda wonder what people would run if the whole C-Bill mechanic were deleted from the game. You just build the mech you want and then pilot it.

I know this won't happen because it's harder to monetize that (although lotsa mechs seem to be painted). So don't tell me that; I'm just wondering.

[jay35]

You think it's hard to monetize now? Imagine if they discourage people from collecting mechs (which requires at a minimum to purchase more mechbays) by reintroducing R&R.

[Jonathan Paine]

OP: first of all, I do support R&R.
However, the old system was so punitive and open to exploitation that I would rather do without that layer of immersion.
Second, if someone did come up with an iron clad R&R system, it should still be an opt in system, not mandatory.
Third, the game is still riddled with bugs and in dire need of improved content. R&R should not be a priority until we have a stable platform with CW.

[DaPwnageMachine]

Zerberus, on 18 April 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

Either do it right, or don`t do it at all, R+R is a halfassed solution that needs to stay away or be taken to it's logical conclusion, the "immersion" that so many of the R+R fans harp on.

You want "immersion" and "realism"? Ok. Wipe EVERYONE`s cbills and loose equipment depots clean at the start of CW to level the field. Out of money? Your problem, Sell your mech like so many f2p peolple had to while the system was still here. What, nothing left to pilot? oooh, poor baby... maybe you should become a tech

"realistic" R+R implementation for "optimized immersion".

Mech survives conflict:

Normal R+R, all destroyed components must be replaced at cost. Meck locked for repairs for 24h

Destruction of mech in battle:

Round won? R+R, every lost component must be opurchased back at full price, missing limbs must be purchased back at partial chassis costs equivalent to their % of overall tonnage. Mech out of commission for a week due to repair efforts.
Round lost? Mech permanently deleted from your bay, because the other team salvaged it. mech`s c-bill value after component destruction divided evenly amongst other team.

What? But you paid RL money for it and spent another 5$ making it look cool? Too bad... be happy ejections aren`t implemented yet, otherwise we`d be defaulting to:

HS kill, cockpit or Life support destroyed.

Mech destroyed, pilot dead, account permanently locked.

"But but but I spent a year beta testing this game and /or paid a founders fee?"

"And? You wanted realism and immersion at the proven cost of ******* up the game beyond all recognition for new players. And that`s what you got. Deal with it"

--------------------------

And btw, you can only play in one given system per week, because jumping takes time.

Can only drop in a maximum of 2 rounds a day becasue R+R takes time as does your insertion and extraction.

Jumps to the next ysytem because you`re bored cost money and take 24h to complete.

6h /day minimum must be dedicated to sleep or suffer a cumulative to hit penalty. this must be manually set by the player. For every day w/o sleep, cumulative 15% chance of falling asleep on the battlefield.

If you want me to list more ways that the same "immersion" and realism" constantly used to justify R+R would totally **** up the game for just about everybody, just let me know.

These ideas are worse than mind but you post them to make a mockery of my argument and TOG SOlid likes the post becuase it is meant to debunk my arugment rather than posting something positive. Good job forum trolls, ur absolutely doing the best that you're capable of to help make a better game. Not trying to build you up for anything really, I'm just stating that you continue to post in this thread negatively and continue to maintain a negative presence. You say I haven't made a good quality R&R suggestion but you obviously haven't even countered it other than to say NO IT SUCKS NO IT SUCKS NO IT SUCKS MAKE A BETTER ONE.

LOL and you may not have a problem with PPC and gauss rifles, but you can't deny the 500 posts that occur every day. just like it did with SRMs, small lasers, gauss rifles, and LRMs. At least others in this thread who have disagreed have done so with legit non-bashing arguments. You have provided none.

Anyway, good discussions. This game used to be fun and I was merely offering a suggestion to bring it back to what was fun but apparently this community prefers "Forumwarrior every weapon is OP so nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf" Online. Absolutely no challenge in this game anymore but I think thats what everyone wants lmao.

Edited by DaPwnageMachine, 18 April 2013 - 12:08 PM.

[jay35]

DaPwnageMachine, on 18 April 2013 - 11:20 AM, said:

There are various ways to combat a lot of the bad stuff that R&R brought with. A lot of it can be done by the community. GOt a teammate whos hiding to avoid damage? Report his position to the other team. In the most extreme ways, they could even implement a full loss on your mech if ur base was capped. I wouldn't mind that

Oh, i get it now. He's just got the wrong perspective on every aspect of the issue. He posts something destined to get the forums riled up, and now he's trying to call you guys trolls for disagreeing with his "modest proposal".

DaPwnageMachine, on 18 April 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

Good job forum trolls, ur absolutely doing the best that you're capable of to help make a better game.

This is amazing.

Edited by jay35, 18 April 2013 - 12:11 PM.

[Galenit]

For what the cbills are?
If you play some games a day, you will have more then you can eat.

I wish they will bring r&r back.

[von Pilsner]

R&R can prevent players from playing with the big stompy robot that they want to play with...

That is bad for the game, it is not coming back.

[ManDaisy]

Well they could always break it down into Merc units and houses. Merc unit = R&R better rewards. House unit = no R&R. It only makes sense.

[TOGSolid]

DaPwnageMachine, on 18 April 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

These ideas are worse than mind but you post them to make a mockery of my argument and TOG SOlid likes the post becuase it is meant to debunk my arugment rather than posting something positive. Good job forum trolls, ur absolutely doing the best that you're capable of to help make a better game. You're done. You say I haven't made a good quality R&R suggestion but you obviously haven't even countered it other than to say NO IT SUCKS NO IT SUCKS NO IT SUCKS.

LOL and you may not have a problem with PPC and gauss rifles, but you can't deny the 500 posts that occur every day. just like it did with SRMs and LRMs. At least others in this thread who have disagreed have done so with legit non-bashing arguments. You have provided none.

Quote

Yeah, that's basically what happens in every R&R thread. The supporters always end up resorting to rude comments and vague rants about "how there's so much that could be done to make R&R work.

Quote

My challenge stands: Write out a quality R&R system that avoids the pitfalls of the old one. I love having a good mechanics discussion but you have so far failed to say anything of value.

EDIT:

Quote

There is no crap mech in this game.

Go run the six ballistic spider with nothing but MGs and get back to us on that.

Edited by TOGSolid, 18 April 2013 - 12:10 PM.

[TruePoindexter]

DaPwnageMachine, on 18 April 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

Well it's the truth dude. There's going to be griefing in every game, every smallest way possible by internet trolls. What do you want me to say to you? Oh, you're totally right let's not implement an idea because someone will find a way to grief you in it and make the whole idea bad. Sorry, but no thanks. You gotta have some stomach dude. Have I been disarmed completely just cuz the other team wanted me to pay hella money to repair when R&R was implemented? Yes. Does it bother me as much as bothered you? Absolutely not.

I never said it was bothering me - I just said that it is a result of the R&R system just like it's a result of allowing high level players to exist in low level zones in an MMO. This is in fact a problem.

You're also ignoring every other negative aspect of R&R.

Relax - I'm not jumping down your throat or insulting you. I'm saying why R&R is a bad idea and you're responding to pretty much everyone in a rude manner which does far more to hurt your opinion than anything I say or do.

[ManDaisy]

Only one thing has to be done to make R&R work,

Merc Units = R&R

House Units = No R&R, less reward, less risk

Edited by ManDaisy, 18 April 2013 - 12:04 PM.

[Fire and Salt]

In my favorite mech I have a kd of about 1.8... Though its rising... Surely I would be able to pay r and r on it.

My opponents will not all be so lucky. So I will continue to use my beast, while half of the player base has to downgrade.

I will kick more but than ever before. It will not add a challenge, only make the game harder for the less skilled players.


Why do I care?
1. I have friends who I am trying to get into this game. I don't want them to quit because they can never get the mech they want.
2. Same thing as 1, but for the rest of the noobs. It will be better for the player base.
3. I do not want p2w. Excessive r&r will make it p2w, because the pay crowd will keep using endo/ff/xl etc.

Edited by Fire and Salt, 18 April 2013 - 12:11 PM.

[Fut]

ManDaisy, on 18 April 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

Well they could always break it down into Merc units and houses. Merc unit = R&R better rewards. House unit = no R&R. It only makes sense.

Houses should produce income based on the amount of planets they control.
All money from this would go into a House-Bank.
Cbux needed for R&R would come from that bank...

[Mercules]

TOGSolid, on 18 April 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:

Yes it is, and there is no R&R in Battletech so you just torpedoed your own position.

I think you mean to say, "When I played Battletech I and my friends didn't use R&R." There is R&R in battletech in the Startegic Operations rules.

[jay35]

And with ELO in play, we're all being artificially constrained to a competitive set of players in our matches, so it's not like your skill can ensure you better winnings/earnings over the long term, as it will only result in your ELO rising, putting you up against harder and harder players. This means everyone will suffer a bit more were R&R to return, thanks to ELO. Those who were used to their skill allowing them to rake in positive earnings every match would probably not fare as consistently well any longer. But they probably haven't considered that.

Fut, on 18 April 2013 - 12:11 PM, said:

Houses should produce income based on the amount of planets they control.
All money from this would go into a House-Bank.
Cbux needed for R&R would come from that bank...

Or better, R&R would simply not be part of the economy.

[DaPwnageMachine]

jay35, on 18 April 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

Oh, i get it now. He's just got the wrong perspective on every aspect of the issue. He posts something destined to get the forums riled up, and now he's trying to call you guys trolls for disagreeing with his "modest proposal".

This is amazing.

And yet, you have said nothing about R&R other than to bash me. LOL jesus christ we don't want your opinion anymore. If you don't like mine, then simply leave the thread. You do have that freedom and you did make your point already. Or maybe you just need a little more acknowledgement in your life?

TruePoindexter, on 18 April 2013 - 12:01 PM, said:

I never said it was bothering me - I just said that it is a result of the R&R system just like it's a result of allowing high level players to exist in low level zones in an MMO. This is in fact a problem.

You're also ignoring every other negative aspect of R&R.

Relax - I'm not jumping down your throat or insulting you. I'm saying why R&R is a bad idea and you're responding to pretty much everyone in a rude manner which does far more to hurt your opinion than anything I say or do.

I'm fully aware of all the bad things that went on when R&R was implemented. I merely stated that they are solvable and while you may not have liked my suggestions, I don't see anyone else posting any suggestions of their own other than just dissolve it completely. TOGSolid has continually posted "Post quality suggestions" with the intention of stating that my suggestions were crap. He doesn't like my ideas, I get it. You don't have to like them, but if you're not going to like them, why not post your own? I don't see anyone here posting anything productive for R&R other than "your suggestions suck, go away. " What a joke.

You may not believe it becuase you like an easier game, but the lack of R&R has RUINED this game and whatever depth in the mechlab this game may have had. Now we have a game where the only thing to do is "build the strongest loadout and use iit to win until everyone cries hard enough to nerf it." Yes the flaws were bad in R&R, but the game has a come a long way since when those flaws were there with newer features like double heat sinks, gauss rifle revisions, etc.

With all of the stuff we have now that weren't available back then, R&R can be reimplemented in a way that works now to bring back the gameplay and depth that this game is sorely missing since it was removed. But instead of posting of your suggestions, certain individuals are just bashing mine and not offering anything in return other than something negative meant to attack me lol. That's the community at fault, the same community that now cries over a new weapon every patch. The same community that ruined this game really lol

Edited by DaPwnageMachine, 18 April 2013 - 12:37 PM.