143 replies to this topic

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Psikez, on 26 April 2013 - 04:11 PM, said:

Hey look the reason I don't like "modern" shooters at all.

Give me a rail gun and some heads any day

Yet the CoF ideal works wonderfully for MWO in that it helps prevent the exact problem we're having with MWO right now, pin point fire 100% of the time.

you are piloting a machine of war, there is an element of randomness in that, you might not like that idea, but from a "realistic" perspective [within the universe of mechwarrior/battletech] fighting the CoF would give a wonderful imersion factor of working with the targeting computer to gain a targeting solution.

[Corvus Antaka]

you forgot mech 3 LRMS that perfectly would solve the poptart problem.

[Deathlike]

Psikez, on 26 April 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

Are you kidding? playing mw3 on 56k was about the best training you could've had for mwo up until the host state rewinds.

Ironically, that's exactly why I wasn't complaining... because it wasn't as hard after facing that during MW3's era...

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 26 April 2013 - 04:57 PM, said:

you forgot mech 3 LRMS that perfectly would solve the poptart problem.

The magic arcs of hilarity....

[shabowie]

Hylius, on 18 April 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

There's still a recoil of a solid object travelling at immense speed. It just doesn't have the propulsion backblast of, say, an AC round. But yes, recoil still exists.

Yeah there would be recoil, but the mass of the mech is going to handle the recoil relatively easy.

In scale, just thinking about the humanoid rmechs, most of these guns are similar to a person firing a rifle or shotgun. In terms of mass however the object that wants to stay at rest is made of steel and other materials of greater density.

Edited by shabowie, 26 April 2013 - 05:31 PM.

[Volume]

I am all for this game having projectile inheritance a la Tribes (your second suggestion, OP)

[p4g3m4s7r]

Jade Kitsune, on 26 April 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

Yet the CoF ideal works wonderfully for MWO in that it helps prevent the exact problem we're having with MWO right now, pin point fire 100% of the time.

you are piloting a machine of war, there is an element of randomness in that, you might not like that idea, but from a "realistic" perspective [within the universe of mechwarrior/battletech] fighting the CoF would give a wonderful imersion factor of working with the targeting computer to gain a targeting solution.

You clearly have not encountered a modern war machine. There is almost no visibly measured randomness in the operation of a guided missile, laser-aimed tank round, or sniper rifle. Any weapon system that is currently operation that did exhibit any form of "out of nowhere" randomness like what happens in a CoF would be under serious review, removed from the field, and would severely hurt the name of the contractor developing it. Sure, the grunt can witness a CoF with an automatic rifle, but that is almost entirely due to the fact that he is a human being and he is attempting to both aim a weapon and deal with the effects of recoil.

shabowie, on 26 April 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:

Yeah there would be recoil, but the mass of the mech is going to handle the recoil relatively easy.

In scale, just thinking about the humanoid rmechs, most of these guns are similar to a person firing a rifle or shotgun. In terms of mass however the object that wants to stay at rest is made of steel and other materials of greater density.

I completely agree with your assessment of the physics and I also think that recoil isn't the answer because recoil (in a machine) does not affect the first shot. In the case of pop-tarters, they never fire a second shot before landing. Also, none of the weapons in game (except the AC2 and machine gun) fire fast enough for there to even be any noticeable recoil.

I think a real solution is some sort of aiming nerf when using JJ (shaky-cam or otherwise) to make aiming exceptionally difficult while employing jump-jets. Thus the best tactic would be waiting until you have stopped firing jumpjets to fire your weapons. Also, a heat penalty would be a good way to force poptarts to focus more on precision and consistent damage from afar and less on a huge burst of damage.

[Teralitha]

Remove double heat sinks problem solved.

[Alpha087]

Increasing the heat generation from certain weapons (*cough cough* PPCs...) might also help, at least a little. I don't think they were able to be abused nearly as much in any of the old MechWarrior games as they are in MWO. Also LRMs need to be fixed... They're an absolute joke right now, compared to how they were in basically every other BattleTech/MechWarrior game.

[Riptor]

Quote

[color=#959595]2) Movement affects aim. It's simple physics. If I'm moving left and I throw something, the object I throw is going to move slightly left as well. The faster I move left, the more the object I throw moves left. The same applies for weapons fire. If I'm accelerating upwards, my shots go higher than where I am. If I'm in a light going 150kph, my aim should be adjusted accordingly. Think of the poptarter: on his way up, he has to aim low. On his way down, he has to aim high. On his apex, he has to aim just right. And that's assuming he's doing a straight up and down and no side movement. Suddenly it's a wee bit harder.[/color]

Not aplicable for guns since the projectile is so fast the movement is kept to a minimum. We are talking about projectiles that cross the border of sound. I highly doubt me going 46 km per hour will affect my gauss rifle that much at the distances we are usualy engaging the enemy.

Edited by Riptor, 26 April 2013 - 08:03 PM.

[Wolf Ender]

CapperDeluxe, on 18 April 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

Recoil would solve nothing because you'd just alpha strike and all your weapons would still hit the same spot. All recoil would do is encourage more alpha striking and less chain firing. Complete opposite of what you appear to want.

this post and the sound logic therein, completely 100% obliterates both points in OP's original post. Well done.

[Lightfoot]

If players can pop-tart and not have their aim thrown off by that how will recoil throw it off? Pre-recoil?

I don't see jump jetters running the game. They jump, take a shot,if your not moving they probbaly hit, if you move probably not. I don't use jump jets so this is purely unbiased.

[Keifomofutu]

Teralitha, on 26 April 2013 - 07:35 PM, said:

Remove double heat sinks problem solved.

Doesn't work on this. They overheat in the air and fall back behind their hill in safety.

I think both projectile inheritance + reticule shake when jjing and falling would greatly reduce the problem.

Edited by Keifomofutu, 26 April 2013 - 09:24 PM.

[blinkin]

Xostriyad, on 18 April 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

Not sure how much recoil there would be with a PPC or a Guass rifle.

Heck, isn't a Guass Rifle made to be recoiless or am I thinking railguns?

F=MA

it doesn't matter how it is fired. you can compensate for recoil by spreading the force out over time with some sort of absorption system, but nothing will remove it entirely.

[TOGSolid]

CapperDeluxe, on 18 April 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

Recoil would solve nothing because you'd just alpha strike and all your weapons would still hit the same spot. All recoil would do is encourage more alpha striking and less chain firing. Complete opposite of what you appear to want.

That said, I wouldn't mind a neat animation on the mech with it rocking a bit from the Autocannon shots without actually affecting your aim mostly just for visual badassery.

Quote

I think a real solution is some sort of aiming nerf when using JJ (shaky-cam or otherwise) to make aiming exceptionally difficult while employing jump-jets.

Agreed. This is definitely one of the best solutions suggested so far when dealing with poptarters. It's either this or just make their shots deviate like a ************ while jump jetting.

Edited by TOGSolid, 26 April 2013 - 10:48 PM.

[Wolf Ender]

i don't think the answer necessarily lies in shaky cam while jumping. i mean you already do get a shaky crosshairs when you're taking off, but it's smooth while you're floating. i can't imagine making it shaky throughout the whole jump. that would just make it impossible and i feel like thats an over-nerf

wouldn't integrating some elements of the BTech TT heat scale negatives help solve poptarting and 6xLL and 6xPPC boating. For example if you run too hot you would get decreased mobility, decreased aiming ability, etc. it doesnt have to be anything drastic but maybe if you stay in the red for a long period of time it cuts your torso twist and arm speed by half or something or limits your max arm and torso axis.

one last possible suggestion, jumping in TT causes heat. maybe they should add just a little bit of that?

[Nihtgenga]

Your suggestion is known, but welcome to the crowd.

Nihtgenga, on 19 April 2013 - 07:02 AM, said:

Would support the idea of movement+heat affecting precision implementation as limitation of skill-free-poptarting.

[cyberFluke]

3N3RGY, on 18 April 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

There will always be jump sniping /pop tarting.

It has ALWAYS been this way. The game naturally evolves this way as players get better.

Novices run in the open and "brawl"; real players know , that it requires strategy to "cover" your mech and shoot precisely, like in any FPS game.

THESE ARE THE SAME TACTICS USED IN COUNTERSTRIKE, BATTLEFIELD, AND CALL OF DUTY.

Most elite Mechwarrior pilots, funny enough, are veterans of these games as-well, and brought these tactics over.

Also, jump sniping /pop tarting takes much more skill than you mentioned, as you have to lead your shots and the mech does "wobble" and throws your aim off. Also, "pros" try to find the minimum distance to clear the hill and manage heat.

So in conclusion, please open your mind to other superior /advanced play styles and the elite players that employ them.

Poptarting takes as much skill as clicking the centre of a button which pops up on your screen within say two seconds, one maybe? Yeah, none of us do that while we're sitting at a computer a bunch of the day.. oh wait.. Elite players my ****, deflate your effing ego for a minute, so you can see something other than up your own arse and grow a pair.

Edited by cyberFluke, 27 April 2013 - 03:44 AM.

[Denno]

I beat up poppers with a good ground build. All the time. Because I can (usually) aim.

Edited by Denno, 27 April 2013 - 03:52 AM.

[Echo6]

Randalf Yorgen, on 20 April 2013 - 02:15 PM, said:

simple solution, have you ever watched a video of what it's like inside a space shuttle when it launches into space? that much shaking and vibration would ruin anyones aim. However MWO has a wonderrful thing where the cross hairs don't jiggle or jumble about as you are moving across the country side, they are always perfectly centered and with the new Arm Lock everything hits where the CT is aiming. If they removed that stability the game would play much more realistically and most of these "Over powered, please nerf, This needs a buff" threads would be gone, all replaced by "Bring back my non moving stable crosshairs" threads.

This has got to be the best idea I've heard.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

The problem is, too many people make bias suggestions designed to remove jump sniping entirely because it goes against their brawling playstyle.

Very few people suggest options to bring them both into line and make both viable.

Jump Jets should produce heat, and they should introduce moderate shake but nothing over the top.

There should never ever be any random mechanics to deal with