143 replies to this topic

[Hylius]

There's no denying it: poptarting is driving a lot of people off. Be it a Cataphract, Highlander, Trebuchet, or even a Jenner, the result is the same: stand behind cover, jump up, fire with perfect accuracy, fall back into cover. People can defend playstyle choice all they want, but when it comes to perfect accuracy weapons at long range, it leads to a sniperfest. Frankly, that's boring. I like sniping, I like brawling. I've used LRMs, SRMs, Gauss, ACs, PPCs, lasers... basically everything. I pilot lights, mediums, heavies, and assaults. I like countering the different builds and tactics in solo, 4man, and 8man drops. But what this has led to is the same thing every game, in the same spots, on the same maps. In a single word: boring.

Mechwarrior 3 has your solution. It involves basic physics.

1) Recoil. Our weapons have an impulse when they hit a target (we'll ignore the fact that it doesn't actually affect the aiming of the target it hits, which is dumb, but moving on). It only makes sense that they have an impulse on the object they're leaving. Our war machines are massive, technologically advanced beasts. They carry massive amounts of firepower and armor, and do so with mirace myomer fiber, gyros, actuators, and engines. That doesn't mean they should ignore the simple physics of recoil of firing these massive weapons. Recoil means sustained long ranged fire becomes more challenging. It means sure, you can fire that 3 PPC, 1 Gauss alpha. And sure, it'll go where you aim. But you're going to have to reacquire your target and adjust your aim to compensate for your next shot. This will affect the snipers that are standing still. But what about the moving ones?

2) Movement affects aim. It's simple physics. If I'm moving left and I throw something, the object I throw is going to move slightly left as well. The faster I move left, the more the object I throw moves left. The same applies for weapons fire. If I'm accelerating upwards, my shots go higher than where I am. If I'm in a light going 150kph, my aim should be adjusted accordingly. Think of the poptarter: on his way up, he has to aim low. On his way down, he has to aim high. On his apex, he has to aim just right. And that's assuming he's doing a straight up and down and no side movement. Suddenly it's a wee bit harder.

Both of these were in Mechwarrior 3 and made aiming ballistics and PPCs at range a pain at times. Was it perfect? No, of course not. Anyone who played it can give you stories about Gauss and PPCs instantly legging (thus killing) 'Mechs. But it made sustained fire harder, and I sure as heck don't remember much poptarting there (to be fair, I didn't get a chance to play online much). Heck, I just played through the campaign again and was shocked by how downright difficult it was to aim my ballistics compared to the point and click stuff here.

I'm all for sniping. I enjoy it from time to time. But frankly, it needs a skill factor. That's not what we have currently. It's not the weapon's fault that the game mechanics themselves aid their usage.

Also, optionally, as a little sidenote, you could take a page out of Planetside 2's book. They have jumpjets too. But the accuracy is laughable while using them. The idea of hitting anyone outside of, say, 30m, is silly. Poptarting doesn't happen there, and wouldn't even if they could use a sniper rifle. I'm pretty sure 'Mechs, geared for land warfare, would understandably have targeting problems while in flight. Just food for thought.

[ManDaisy]

Recoil... I knew something felt off about firing ballistics.

[Xostriyad]

Not sure how much recoil there would be with a PPC or a Guass rifle.

Heck, isn't a Guass Rifle made to be recoiless or am I thinking railguns?

[General Taskeen]

MW3 has a lot of solutions actually, including, but not limited to all of the following:

- Recoil
- Fun Jump Jets (although I prefer the fun + balanced JJ's of MW:LL)

Also all of these are working/useful or have better programmed functionality:
- MG's
- Flamers
- NARC
- LB-X (all of them)
- Pulse Lasers (best pulse laser functionality of any mechwarrior)
- UAC's (fire twice as fast, they do not "double shot")

[Hylius]

Xostriyad, on 18 April 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

Not sure how much recoil there would be with a PPC or a Guass rifle.

Heck, isn't a Guass Rifle made to be recoiless or am I thinking railguns?

There's still a recoil of a solid object travelling at immense speed. It just doesn't have the propulsion backblast of, say, an AC round. But yes, recoil still exists.

[Elyam]

ACs in BT are supposed to be relatively recoiless (it's harder to find FASA's original tech descriptions that specifically mention the recoiless nature, but they are out there, I remember it quite well). Same for Gauss and PPC.

We should look to established Battletech effects on accuracy written into the technology. Jumping mechs are supposed to incur one of the most significant aiming penalties. It isn't just about the simple notion of a skilled gunner pulling the trigger at the right time as the target crosses beneath the reticle - it's about battletechnology, its limitations, and the ability of all mech systems to respond and bring weapons to bear on the gunner's selected target during the jump action. This is one of those things where player notion of FPS aiming skill encounters Battletech norms of limited tech. So somehow, this should be the method utilized to limit the Op's concern - a deviation penalty due to the jump. Same for other actions based on established BT norms.

Edited by Elyam, 18 April 2013 - 12:13 PM.

[Space Odin]

I don't understand your references to "perfect aim". About 1/5 times you hit an enemy dead-on it doesn't even register damage. Slightly less frequently you shots will go in almost the opposite direction you're facing. So even if your aim is perfect, even if you hit your target, there's no guarantee you'll do damage to it. Since mechwarrior is having a hard enough time detecting perfectly accurate shots as it is, I don't think making weapons even more difficult to hit with is the solution.

Movement already affects aim. Even slight twitches can alter the trajectory of your weapons dramatically. You always have to compensate for factors like the direction you're moving in and the direction your opponent is moving in.

If poptarts really need nerfing, which I'm not necessarily agreeing that they do, I think reducing the maximum number of JJ's they can take to 2 would go a long way. It would require the sniper to have much greater skill since his window for lining up shots will be much smaller.

[Victor Morson]

MW3 should never, ever, ever get brought up as an example of good balance. Wonky as MW2 was in a lot of respects it was a league better than 3. A lot of people fondly remember 3 as their first MW, but seriously, the game devolved into playing like a light gun shooter.

[Mechteric]

Recoil would solve nothing because you'd just alpha strike and all your weapons would still hit the same spot. All recoil would do is encourage more alpha striking and less chain firing. Complete opposite of what you appear to want.

[Nihtgenga]

I do also not really agree on a die-hard nerf on poptarting by killing JJ or something like that - because that would only cause other imbalances, like Spider pilots vanishing (that darn little things rely much on JJ mobility, without being a poptarter).

Should that really be a too big annoyance, I'd prefer to have a fix similar to one idea in one of the heat management threads, namely just making sniping fire harder to aim by penalizing HUD targeting reticle precision or just increasing the aimpoint: The faster you move (JJ having the worst penalty then) and the hotter you run, the bigger the circle and cross gets, or it starts to move.

Yes, that will still allow poptarting -as this is amongst other things, what the JJ are intended for, imho- but increase significantly the skill requirement to get your sniper shots on target, if you decide to poptart. If you fire while in JJ movement on a moving target at long range from a mech close to 100% heat, you would need a personal skill level of somewhere between "Lucky Luke", "David Copperfield" and "Jedi" to hit, because your targeting reticles being elephant-butt sized plus moving like your mech suffering from parkinsons disease will not allow it to have real use in targeting.

Edited by Nihtgenga, 18 April 2013 - 12:42 PM.

[n r g]

There will always be jump sniping /pop tarting.

It has ALWAYS been this way. The game naturally evolves this way as players get better.

Novices run in the open and "brawl"; real players know , that it requires strategy to "cover" your mech and shoot precisely, like in any FPS game.

THESE ARE THE SAME TACTICS USED IN COUNTERSTRIKE, BATTLEFIELD, AND CALL OF DUTY.

Most elite Mechwarrior pilots, funny enough, are veterans of these games as-well, and brought these tactics over.

Also, jump sniping /pop tarting takes much more skill than you mentioned, as you have to lead your shots and the mech does "wobble" and throws your aim off. Also, "pros" try to find the minimum distance to clear the hill and manage heat.

So in conclusion, please open your mind to other superior /advanced play styles and the elite players that employ them.

[aptest]

Quote

Also, jump sniping /pop tarting takes much more skill than you mentioned, as you have to lead your shots and the mech does "wobble" and throws your aim off. Also, "pros" try to find the minimum distance to clear the hill and manage heat.

put in other words:

a poptarting target is stationary in the air. Like all some cresting mechs, it clears it's head before it clears it's weapons. Because of that, a prepared opponent has an easier time ppc-ing a poptart than the poptart can ppc the prepared opponent. if you hit, the cockpit shake from the ppc / AC you've used to fire will make the poptart miss his shots.

Edited by aptest, 18 April 2013 - 01:00 PM.

[Nihtgenga]

3N3RGY, on 18 April 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

There will always be jump sniping /pop tarting.
(...)
So in conclusion, please open your mind to other superior /advanced play styles and the elite players that employ them.

No problems with that, I'd only support modification if it is reasonable within game logic, not invalidating player skill, and required for the purpose of playing fun at the same time.

[Hylius]

Space Odin, on 18 April 2013 - 12:12 PM, said:

I don't understand your references to "perfect aim". About 1/5 times you hit an enemy dead-on it doesn't even register damage. Slightly less frequently you shots will go in almost the opposite direction you're facing. So even if your aim is perfect, even if you hit your target, there's no guarantee you'll do damage to it. Since mechwarrior is having a hard enough time detecting perfectly accurate shots as it is, I don't think making weapons even more difficult to hit with is the solution.

Are you sure on this? This isn't true on my end before the ballistics rewind, and it certainly isn't now. I do damage on every impact now. And things always go where I point them. I'd call that perfect aim.

Victor Morson, on 18 April 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:

MW3 should never, ever, ever get brought up as an example of good balance. Wonky as MW2 was in a lot of respects it was a league better than 3. A lot of people fondly remember 3 as their first MW, but seriously, the game devolved into playing like a light gun shooter.

I played MW2 first. I acknowledge MW3 had a lot of problems (legging, lack of heat dissipation coolant, LRMs for a few examples), but that doesn't mean we can't think some things from it. I feel that ballistics management, in terms of aiming, is one of these.

CapperDeluxe, on 18 April 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

Recoil would solve nothing because you'd just alpha strike and all your weapons would still hit the same spot. All recoil would do is encourage more alpha striking and less chain firing. Complete opposite of what you appear to want.

I'm not advocating chain firing. I acknowledge it takes skill to line up the perfect shot, and I don't think it should be discarded because of an RNG or something silly. I can't count the number of times my perfect shots missed/bounced on World of Tanks before I finally gave the game up, even while sitting perfectly still in cover. Not hitting what you're aiming at is FRUSTRATING. However, any game with high powered, long range weapons applies recoil of some type. Besides immersion, this makes yours eyes, and your crosshairs, leave the target, affecting subsequent shots. That's what I'm talking about. It's a learned skill to overcome the recoil as well, which I'm sure people will. However, as is, you just point, click, reload, and click again, with maybe a slight twitch if your target was moving.

Nihtgenga, on 18 April 2013 - 12:40 PM, said:

I do also not really agree on a die-hard nerf on poptarting by killing JJ or something like that - because that would only cause other imbalances, like Spider pilots vanishing (that darn little things rely much on JJ mobility, without being a poptarter).

Nor do I want to nerf jump jets. The initial jump jet modification was horrible for me as a light pilot. My jump jets were useless for any vertical lift, even with maximum amount. The current version feels right in terms of thrust to me. The unfortunate side effect is what we have currently.

3N3RGY, on 18 April 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

There will always be jump sniping /pop tarting.

It has ALWAYS been this way. The game naturally evolves this way as players get better.

Novices run in the open and "brawl"; real players know , that it requires strategy to "cover" your mech and shoot precisely, like in any FPS game.

THESE ARE THE SAME TACTICS USED IN COUNTERSTRIKE, BATTLEFIELD, AND CALL OF DUTY.

Most elite Mechwarrior pilots, funny enough, are veterans of these games as-well, and brought these tactics over.

Also, jump sniping /pop tarting takes much more skill than you mentioned, as you have to lead your shots and the mech does "wobble" and throws your aim off. Also, "pros" try to find the minimum distance to clear the hill and manage heat.

So in conclusion, please open your mind to other superior /advanced play styles and the elite players that employ them.

I honestly don't know how to address such a post.

Firstly, brawling is not a nonskilled choice. Brawling requires a lot of thought, both in armament and positioning. You don't "run into the open". An Atlas doesn't walk into a plain to engage another Atlas. It uses cover and concealment to approach the target before engaging. It requires movement to mitigate damage, either by dodging or spreading it. And it requires a sacrifice of ranged firepower. Sure, you'll get your people that just stare an enemy down. They get cored out quickly. So does the sniper that stands on a hill and never takes cover. Both take skill.

Second, don't even try to bring crap like Call of Duty here.

Third, as said previously, I'm not saying things such as sniping do not require skill. I'm saying the minimum amount of skill required for the gains are not balanced. A bad brawler gets murdered in seconds. A bad poptarter can be a thorn in your side for minutes and still rack up high damages. The game mechanics, as they are, lend themselves to that style of play. I'm merely proposing a raising of the skill bar. The proposed changes would only require the skilled to adapt properly. The unskilled will miss and be murdered. AKA, the same as a brawler.

aptest, on 18 April 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

put in other words:

a poptarting target is stationary in the air. Like all some cresting mechs, it clears it's head before it clears it's weapons. Because of that, a prepared opponent has an easier time ppc-ing a poptart than the poptart can ppc the prepared opponent. if you hit, the cockpit shake from the ppc / AC you've used to fire will make the poptart miss his shots.

Incorrect, as the "cockpit shake" is merely visual. It does not affect your actual firing. And there is no advantage unless you know the exact moment a poptarter will appear. The time to react, turn, and fire negates any advantage.

In theory, LRMs would help, but they're useless.

In theory, lights would help, but many of us light pilots are rubberbanding and unable to use our quicker 'Mechs to get behind the enemy.

In theory, airstrikes and artillery would force poptarters out of cover or take damage, but they don't even scrape paint.

And, in theory, recoil and momentum on ballistics/PPCs would raise the skillbar. The truly skilled could still pull it off with great success. But the "novice" would be defeated easily and forced to either change tactics or be better at it.

[ForceUser]

I am all for advanced play styles, playing in the leagues and tournaments we saw some amazing tactics. There are however quite a few problems with your post.

3N3RGY, on 18 April 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

There will always be jump sniping /pop tarting.

It has ALWAYS been this way. The game naturally evolves this way as players get better.

Novices run in the open and "brawl"; real players know , that it requires strategy to "cover" your mech and shoot precisely, like in any FPS game.

THESE ARE THE SAME TACTICS USED IN COUNTERSTRIKE, BATTLEFIELD, AND CALL OF DUTY.

You are correct and therin lies the problem. This game was marketed, and still is marketed as more of a mech simulator. None of these games you mentioned is anything but a twitchy FPS shooter. Do you see the disconnect here? The game is currently in such a state that playing as if it were a twitchy FPS is more rewarding than playing it as a mech simulator.

Quote

Most elite Mechwarrior pilots, funny enough, are veterans of these games as-well, and brought these tactics over.

Also, jump sniping /pop tarting takes much more skill than you mentioned, as you have to lead your shots and the mech does "wobble" and throws your aim off. Also, "pros" try to find the minimum distance to clear the hill and manage heat.

So in conclusion, please open your mind to other superior /advanced play styles and the elite players that employ them.

Having tried poptarts out extensively I will say that you are incorrect. Poptarts require vastly less skill than countersniping poptarters in something like a 4ppc stalker. There is little to no wobble and you can fire at any point in your jump because there is little to no deviation of your weapons, especially now with state rewind.

The proof of all this is of course the sheer ludicrous amount of poptarters currently in game. PGI knows this as well that is not in doubt. They have all the stats available to them on what mech with what load outs gets played and how many deaths by what weapons and mechs as well. Drop into any game nd 80-100% of all mechs will be poptarting PPC mehs.

We talked on our TS3 server last night about how we have reached, or are near to reaching peak poptart, depending on what PGI does in the next few patches. Lets look at why we say this.

1) Ballistic rewind. This for me with a ping of 300ms has been the single most amazing thing to happen to this game. It is unfortunately the only great thing to happen to this game in a *very* long time

2) JJ Buff. The nerf a while back made jumpjets unsuitable for poptarting but still made them excellent for maneuvering around the battlefield, especially for lights. Quick turning, getting over small obstacles lights and heavies especially got stuck on etc. The buff back up from them instantly made poptarting king again. I miss those JJ.

3) Assault JJ. The highlander. Able to mount more PPCs and fire them often enough than the 3D has made this the go to mech for any poptarter. I have seen entire matches where I'd be in a 4PPC stalker and be surrounded by, I kid you not, 7 poptarting highlanders. This has never happened in the entire history of this game. This is a serious indication that there is something wrong.

4) PPC Heat buff. PPCs got a few patches back their heat reduced making them even more effective.

5) PPC projectile increase. Doubling the PPC projectile speed has made them even more accurate at long ranges.

6) Bonus future point! Blackjack. The next mech out should be the blackjack. It has all the ingreadients for making a better or similar poptarted to the trebuche and fill out the JJ poptarting lineup quite niccely. you will have a medium that can fite 1 gauss+PPC, heavy with 1 gauss+2PPC and an assault with 1 gauss and 3 PPC. All with jumpjets. Next patch we could very well reach peak poptart. (it's as ******** as it sounds yey!)

There might be some more minor things like DHS but these 5(6) points should be sufficient.

Now none of these points by themselves are causing the problem. In fact each one of these up to say, the last 3 patches, were *required* to make the PPC even remotely viable. Unfortunately as certain things improved or got introduced the PPCs were not updated to take these changes into account. This is typical of Beta development for F2P games as each patch has a certain focus and balancing focused patches are few as they try to introduce more content to keep players and cosmetics to make money.

That is why I say that the next few patches will show us what PGI's operating procedure is regarding grossly out of balance and out of date changes and how they address them. This will carry over into when the game goes officially out of beta and why my hopes for this game to be anything more than a Hawken clone has been diminishing patch by patch.

The game has never in its history been this out of balance. Comparatively the Splatcat? Not even close. Raven 3L? A joke. Streak cat? A pretender. KC20 or Gausscat? pussiecats. The LRM death from headcapping? Close but no cigar. Dragon bowling? a mere pebble in your shoe. Not even the ancient closed beta invulnrable XL engine SRM6 awesome the goons boated and rushed with were this bad.

Get this fixed PGI. Now.

Edited by ForceUser, 18 April 2013 - 02:17 PM.

[DegeneratePervert]

3N3RGY, on 18 April 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

Also, jump sniping /pop tarting takes much more skill

Tuned out right there. There's nothing really in this game that takes too much skill, but poptarting is NOT something that takes skill. It's imbalanced right now because of FoTM, and I don't really have an issue with it when EVERYONE is not a poptart, but never, EVER think it takes skill. Spacebar..... line up.... ALPHA *fall down* Spacebar....

[ForceUser]

DegeneratePervert, on 18 April 2013 - 02:43 PM, said:

Tuned out right there. There's nothing really in this game that takes too much skill, but poptarting is NOT something that takes skill. It's imbalanced right now because of FoTM, and I don't really have an issue with it when EVERYONE is not a poptart, but never, EVER think it takes skill. Spacebar..... line up.... ALPHA *fall down* Spacebar....

I was worried at first with the whole FoTM but I dunno, this is far, far worse than I have ever seen, even with the jager mech release. We will see.

[CancR]

Once again, Battle tech is the solution when PGI is the problem.

1) JJ produce heat. Alot of it. In real times terms 25% increase on take off and a 10% increase for 1 second sustained jump.

2)Weight balance per lance: for each four man group give them 200-235 tons max. This limits how many mechs that can simply take as many heavy and assaults they want. It's important as well to have each lance be 235 tons a lance and not do any sort of cumulative wieght per 4as that will get min maxed to 4 atals' and 4 spiders or something.

Weight balance per lance will make players take roles and play a smart game, and not line up to play press m1 warrior.

[Hylius]

CancR, on 18 April 2013 - 05:08 PM, said:

1) JJ produce heat. Alot of it. In real times terms 25% increase on take off and a 10% increase for 1 second sustained jump.

I know I'd like the jet's heat be based on actual time usage instead of all of it only on takeoff.

[CancR]

It would be. But there is alot of heat generated to get enough thrust to get in the air, hense why I framed as I did.