143 replies to this topic

[Spheroid]

Xostriyad, on 18 April 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

Not sure how much recoil there would be with a PPC or a Guass rifle.

Heck, isn't a Guass Rifle made to be recoiless or am I thinking railguns?

F=MA Gauss rifle slug velocity is known as is the number of rounds per ton of ammo.

[Mechteric]

Hylius, on 18 April 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:

Besides immersion, this makes yours eyes, and your crosshairs, leave the target, affecting subsequent shots. That's what I'm talking about. It's a learned skill to overcome the recoil as well, which I'm sure people will. However, as is, you just point, click, reload, and click again, with maybe a slight twitch if your target was moving.

Unfortunately the recoil you mention only becomes a hindrance if you're trying to take another shot within the next second or less. Since the normal reload time for the sniper weapons in MWO are more like 3 or 4 seconds recoil will do nothing to hinder them because their subsequent shots aren't as immediate.

Think of it like this, in Counterstrike there is a bolt action one shot one kill sniper rifle and there's a semi automatic sniper rifle. Both have recoil. Guess which sniper rifle is used the most and makes pretty much all the kills? Thats right, the bolt action because all you need is the one hit every few seconds so who cares about its recoil as you're descoping anyway? On the other hand the semi auto rifle can be very tricky to use because of that recoil affecting shots that could otherwise be made much less than a second afterward.

[General Taskeen]

Victor Morson, on 18 April 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:

MW3 should never, ever, ever get brought up as an example of good balance.

Actually it can be, because MW3 did MG's better. LB-X did damage at range, NARC actually worked, etc., etc.

[Nihtgenga]

CancR, on 18 April 2013 - 06:27 PM, said:

It would be. But there is alot of heat generated to get enough thrust to get in the air, hense why I framed as I did.

Would support the idea of movement+heat affecting precision implementation as limitation of skill-free-poptarting.

[Deathlike]

MW3 had the one of the worst netcode ever. In fact... MWO reminded me of MW3's lag shooting prior to the major network patch months ago.

Not everything in older games was optimal or ideal.

[CancR]

MW4 is best Mechwarrior.

[Zordicron]

Xostriyad, on 18 April 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

Not sure how much recoil there would be with a PPC or a Guass rifle.

Heck, isn't a Guass Rifle made to be recoiless or am I thinking railguns?

this.
Things with recoil:
AC's
PPC- not as much as an AC. Probably open to interpretation.

I was thinking maybe SRM's because of the nature of how they fire/travel speed, but i dont think it would be enough to warrant code.

Gauss would not have recoil.

The only thing recoil would help when it comes to sniping is PPC, and poptarts fire only one shot most of the time anyway as an alpha. Adding recoil to a PPC would not bother them, and would add recoil disturbance to players also using the weapon in other ways.

that said, I think they should consider some recoil for ambient feel of game play. Probably not a huge amount, but it should scale with the weapon's recoil rating vs mech tonnage. They also need to re-implement knockdowns etc first, as IMO target knock from the same weapons is more important then how they affect the player shooting them.

Also, shooting an AC20 out of like a cicada should give a 10% chance to knock the cicada over backwards for lulz.

[Zordicron]

Victor Morson, on 18 April 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:

MW3 should never, ever, ever get brought up as an example of good balance. Wonky as MW2 was in a lot of respects it was a league better than 3. A lot of people fondly remember 3 as their first MW, but seriously, the game devolved into playing like a light gun shooter.

This is wrong, at least as far as weapon systems go. Perhaps the online play is what you speak of, to which I would agree: online play for MW3 was deffinatly limited by the tech of the era.

However, basically every weapon system in that game was useful and balanced for the single player campaign.

[Randalf Yorgen]

simple solution, have you ever watched a video of what it's like inside a space shuttle when it launches into space? that much shaking and vibration would ruin anyones aim. However MWO has a wonderrful thing where the cross hairs don't jiggle or jumble about as you are moving across the country side, they are always perfectly centered and with the new Arm Lock everything hits where the CT is aiming. If they removed that stability the game would play much more realistically and most of these "Over powered, please nerf, This needs a buff" threads would be gone, all replaced by "Bring back my non moving stable crosshairs" threads.

[Nihtgenga]

Word!

[CancR]

CancR, on 18 April 2013 - 05:08 PM, said:

Once again, Battle tech is the solution when PGI is the problem.

1) JJ produce heat. Alot of it. In real times terms 25% increase on take off and a 10% increase for 1 second sustained jump.

2)Weight balance per lance: for each four man group give them 200-235 tons max. This limits how many mechs that can simply take as many heavy and assaults they want. It's important as well to have each lance be 235 tons a lance and not do any sort of cumulative wieght per 4as that will get min maxed to 4 atals' and 4 spiders or something.

Weight balance per lance will make players take roles and play a smart game, and not line up to play press m1 warrior.

*ahem*

[Arclight]

Also in TT, as I understand it, jumping is strictly part of movement. So you can not jump in place.Jump jets impart forward movement, problem solved.

[Lord de Seis]

ForceUser, on 18 April 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

I am all for advanced play styles, playing in the leagues and tournaments we saw some amazing tactics. There are however quite a few problems with your post.



You are correct and therin lies the problem. This game was marketed, and still is marketed as more of a mech simulator. None of these games you mentioned is anything but a twitchy FPS shooter. Do you see the disconnect here? The game is currently in such a state that playing as if it were a twitchy FPS is more rewarding than playing it as a mech simulator.


Having tried poptarts out extensively I will say that you are incorrect. Poptarts require vastly less skill than countersniping poptarters in something like a 4ppc stalker. There is little to no wobble and you can fire at any point in your jump because there is little to no deviation of your weapons, especially now with state rewind.

The proof of all this is of course the sheer ludicrous amount of poptarters currently in game. PGI knows this as well that is not in doubt. They have all the stats available to them on what mech with what load outs gets played and how many deaths by what weapons and mechs as well. Drop into any game nd 80-100% of all mechs will be poptarting PPC mehs.

We talked on our TS3 server last night about how we have reached, or are near to reaching peak poptart, depending on what PGI does in the next few patches. Lets look at why we say this.

1) Ballistic rewind. This for me with a ping of 300ms has been the single most amazing thing to happen to this game. It is unfortunately the only great thing to happen to this game in a *very* long time

2) JJ Buff. The nerf a while back made jumpjets unsuitable for poptarting but still made them excellent for maneuvering around the battlefield, especially for lights. Quick turning, getting over small obstacles lights and heavies especially got stuck on etc. The buff back up from them instantly made poptarting king again. I miss those JJ.

3) Assault JJ. The highlander. Able to mount more PPCs and fire them often enough than the 3D has made this the go to mech for any poptarter. I have seen entire matches where I'd be in a 4PPC stalker and be surrounded by, I kid you not, 7 poptarting highlanders. This has never happened in the entire history of this game. This is a serious indication that there is something wrong.

4) PPC Heat buff. PPCs got a few patches back their heat reduced making them even more effective.

5) PPC projectile increase. Doubling the PPC projectile speed has made them even more accurate at long ranges.

6) Bonus future point! Blackjack. The next mech out should be the blackjack. It has all the ingreadients for making a better or similar poptarted to the trebuche and fill out the JJ poptarting lineup quite niccely. you will have a medium that can fite 1 gauss+PPC, heavy with 1 gauss+2PPC and an assault with 1 gauss and 3 PPC. All with jumpjets. Next patch we could very well reach peak poptart. (it's as ******** as it sounds yey!)

There might be some more minor things like DHS but these 5(6) points should be sufficient.

Now none of these points by themselves are causing the problem. In fact each one of these up to say, the last 3 patches, were *required* to make the PPC even remotely viable. Unfortunately as certain things improved or got introduced the PPCs were not updated to take these changes into account. This is typical of Beta development for F2P games as each patch has a certain focus and balancing focused patches are few as they try to introduce more content to keep players and cosmetics to make money.

That is why I say that the next few patches will show us what PGI's operating procedure is regarding grossly out of balance and out of date changes and how they address them. This will carry over into when the game goes officially out of beta and why my hopes for this game to be anything more than a Hawken clone has been diminishing patch by patch.

The game has never in its history been this out of balance. Comparatively the Splatcat? Not even close. Raven 3L? A joke. Streak cat? A pretender. KC20 or Gausscat? pussiecats. The LRM death from headcapping? Close but no cigar. Dragon bowling? a mere pebble in your shoe. Not even the ancient closed beta invulnrable XL engine SRM6 awesome the goons boated and rushed with were this bad.

Get this fixed PGI. Now.

The last paragraph sums it up pretty well, the game is not fun at all when you walk out and expose yourself for a few moments and have internals on any one of your torsos. Previous inbalances could be countered but currently it is not that easy. My atlas should not be getting cored in 3 shots.

Edited by Lord de Seis, 22 April 2013 - 11:52 AM.

[RenegadeMaster]

I agree that both suggestions would make the game balance the snipers better against other roles, but if these two were to be implemented, they should be done so separately. Otherwise, implementing both at the same time would be tougher for pilots to adjust to and there would be a risk of more bugs hitting players all at once.

[Sturmforge]

How about no weapon convergence when jumping? Think that is a big thing. All the weapons firing in the middle of a jump and somehow hitting the same place? Isn't it supposed to be harder to hit something while jumping?

[Psikez]

Deathlike, on 19 April 2013 - 07:34 AM, said:

MW3 had the one of the worst netcode ever. In fact... MWO reminded me of MW3's lag shooting prior to the major network patch months ago.

Not everything in older games was optimal or ideal.

Are you kidding? playing mw3 on 56k was about the best training you could've had for mwo up until the host state rewinds.

[Greyfyl]

3N3RGY, on 18 April 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

There will always be jump sniping /pop tarting.

It has ALWAYS been this way. The game naturally evolves this way as players get better.

Novices run in the open and "brawl"; real players know , that it requires strategy to "cover" your mech and shoot precisely, like in any FPS game.

THESE ARE THE SAME TACTICS USED IN COUNTERSTRIKE, BATTLEFIELD, AND CALL OF DUTY.

Most elite Mechwarrior pilots, funny enough, are veterans of these games as-well, and brought these tactics over.

Also, jump sniping /pop tarting takes much more skill than you mentioned, as you have to lead your shots and the mech does "wobble" and throws your aim off. Also, "pros" try to find the minimum distance to clear the hill and manage heat.

So in conclusion, please open your mind to other superior /advanced play styles and the elite players that employ them.

Please open your mind to the idea that having poptards dominate the game the way they did in MW4 is MAYBE not a good idea.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Guys, guys... This isn't about "was mechwarrior 3 better/worse"

This is about a preposed fix, and additional immersion element to Mechwarrior Online.

Hell even MW4 had some form of recoil for some weapon's

At the end of the day, there's a TON that can be done to help with poptarts, Greater heat penalty's on jumping mechs, additional shake, reticle movement while jumping that throws aim off...

Honestly a Cone of Fire system would do wonder's for MWO's "balance" but too many people already complained that makes the game too "random" despite the fact that every modern shooter has some form of CoF.

[Barghest Whelp]

Yes OP, very good. Bravo! *clap clap clap* *handshake* *hug*... ok that's going a bit too far.

But yes, I would like to add to your list of why MW3 was better, that MW3 had better penalties for excessive heat.

You could explode simply by overheating. Too much heat meant the map/radar would go all wonky. Too much heat meant your aiming reticule would get blurry and start shaking. Exactly as in the lore. This not only meant that boating PPC's was not a very good idea, it also made you think twice about overheating.

As it stands, I only think once, and then it's a matter of "hm, can I core him in one shot?". Not a matter of, "omg, what are my options here?" which is what it should be like.

Heat is a mechwarriors worst nightmare. In MWO it's more like a reload time.

[Psikez]

Jade Kitsune, on 26 April 2013 - 04:01 PM, said:

Honestly a Cone of Fire system would do wonder's for MWO's "balance" but too many people already complained that makes the game too "random" despite the fact that every modern shooter has some form of CoF.

Hey look the reason I don't like "modern" shooters at all.

Give me a rail gun and some heads any day