87 replies to this topic

[DeadlyNerd]

Mason Grimm, on 19 April 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

I would say that comes under "polish" than under "implementation". Right now they are getting critical systems online and feedback like this helps during the polish passes.

sorry, but making the screen and crosshair shake during JJ liftoff and mech falling is a feature and not a polish method.
you don't just "polish" the movement by adding crosshair and screen shake.
Polishing is reducing PPC heat, or increasing projectile speeds.

who supervises the appointing of volunteer mods? I though one would at least need to have basic knowledge of how game mechanics are produced.

Edited by DeadlyNerd, 21 April 2013 - 04:47 AM.

[Cattra Kell]

Updated opening post to include some neat things I have seen people suggest so people can continue to discuss and talk.

[Nebelfeuer]

Though i´m not completly against your idea I think it might be a little unfair to be able to shoot at someone who is jumping while he can only shoot back with problems(shake), especially with ballistic weapons. Remeber high jumping on open ground is already punished with a short standstill making jumpers vunerable - preventing or making shooting while jumping harder would be a dobble punishment for jumping ligths and medium mechs.

Besides It does not really matter if i have to take cover from a person who is moving 2steps back and forth around a corner or a person who is jumping to shoot at me while having good cover otherwise.

The real sniping problem is pinpoint dmg with "boating" builds and not jumpshooting. Fix that and your problem is solved along with 75% of the balancing issues of this game.

Edited by Nebelfeuer, 21 April 2013 - 03:47 PM.

[White Bear 84]

So no to putting quirks on JJ fitted mechs?? Hmmm

Another idea to consider - given the weight mechs should require considerable thrust to come down without damage - so increase damage on mechs as they land. This wont impact lights so much due to the decreased weight but will be more of an impact for heavier poptarting mechs such as the highlander or cataphract..

..of course if the mech is using JJ to get up a hill or onto a building then this wont have much of an effect at all - thus not affecting the viabilty of jumpjets.

[Sam Slade]

http://mwomercs.com/...-the-skill-cap/

I suuggest this

[RedDragon]

Nebelfeuer, on 21 April 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

Though i´m not completly against your idea I think it might be a little unfair to be able to shoot at someone who is jumping while he can only shoot back with problems(shake), especially with ballistic weapons. Remeber high jumping on open ground is already punished with a short standstill making jumpers vunerable - preventing or making shooting while jumping harder would be a dobble punishment for jumping ligths and medium mechs.

How exactly is this unfair? First, no one is forced to jump. You jump because you want to get a positional advantage, not to fire accurately (at least that's how it's supposed to be, jumping in TT gives you the worst hit modifier). Second, you could as well say that it's unfair that someone can jump and others can't. When someone can jump, he can bear a disadvantage to offset the advantages he gets through jumping.

[Donas]

Yes to shake. Saturn Rocket cockpit shake on liftoff. But smooth on descent while not under power. This still gives the tart a window for the smooth aiming, but in a smaller window as he returns to ground. I don't have a problem with poptarters, I do have a problem with having the aim be smooth as silk while under power of jumpjets.

No to Heat. Jumpjets in my opinion do not require further heat. The case can be made they are not an internal heat source since their reaction is vented outside the mech. What i DO have an issue with though is unlimited jumpjets. If a poptarter has a source of fuel volatile enough that it can lift a Highlander assault mech off the ground onboard I want to be able to shoot it, and i want it to explode when I do just like any other ammo crit. Either that, or give them a limited number of jumps/fuel, or make them load fuel like ammo, by the ton.

[topgun505]

Yes to everything except the modules. Jump shots should be significantly difficult to pull off.

I also wouldnt be against adding some forward momentum to mechs that use jump jets.

Shutting down mid-jump should result in an uncontrolled fall that causes an automatic falldown and causes damage.

[Neolisk]

topgun505, on 22 April 2013 - 05:14 AM, said:

Shutting down mid-jump should result in an uncontrolled fall that causes an automatic falldown and causes damage.

OMG, did you just mean people sometimes shut down in mid air? I did not know it could be that ridiculous.

Edited by Neolisk, 22 April 2013 - 05:18 AM.

[topgun505]

Heck yes. A poptard takes a shot and drops, as soon as his jets recharges he jumps and takes another shot, generally by the 3rd time they are near shutdown. But currently there is NO downside to just jump again and take a shot and shut down mid-jump. Rather stupid.

[Donas]

topgun505, on 22 April 2013 - 05:52 AM, said:

Heck yes. A poptard takes a shot and drops, as soon as his jets recharges he jumps and takes another shot, generally by the 3rd time they are near shutdown. But currently there is NO downside to just jump again and take a shot and shut down mid-jump. Rather stupid.

Wow. This I did not know.

I would HOPE that gets cleared up on a polishing pass, because thats pretty silly. Even for make believe rompy stompy robots.

[Cattra Kell]

Yeah its true to the shut down mid air - I know I am guilty when dropping in the 8 mans and when I am designated sniper on the team of shutting down mid air only to land and then power back up cool enough for an alpha again and full fuel.

I like the idea of falling down 100% chance if shut down mid air.

[PropagandaWar]

I abstained from heat. I think that leg damage equalt\ to tonnage should be implemented. Thing with Jump snipers is they can use all their fuel and max the vertical lift with little repercussion on falling damge. Put that in and they won't be able to max lift. That or treat it like coolant and give a limited amount of fuel.

[Dirus Nigh]

Cattra I agree with the basic ideas of jump jets causing a cockpit shake effect, and adding to the heat level of a mech. However I dont think having the effect based on mech class is best. After all the jump jets weight is based on the class of the mech already.

I think heat should be determined by a base number increase, with heat added over time.

The initial ignition of the jump jets would cause a 3% heat increase. For every second after that the jump jets are engaged 1% is added until one of three things happen; 1) the pilot stops using the jets 2) the mech runs out of charge 3) the total heat added to the mech is equal to the number of jump jets the mech has plus the initial 3% spike.

I think this complements the heat being added due to the speed of the mech. A walking mech adds 1% to the heat scale and a running mech 2%. Given that an initial boost given by jump jets should give 3% plus 1% for every second engaged I think it ties into TT specs rather nicely, and there is a consequence for jumping around like a pogostick.

I like many other pilots who use jump jets can depress and release the jump key sever times depending on how I want to maneuver the mech. To prevent rapped build up of small heat spikes the effect should only come into play after a two second delay or when the mech touches ground.

Cockpit shake should also be added as well. There should be a good jolt, as if hit with an AC, then decrease to a wobble that is just enough to shake the cross hairs. Releasing the jump jets in med flight should stop all shaking. That way the pilot will have to learn how to time his jumping, aiming and firing. When the mech lands there should also be a sharp jolt to the mech.

Just some thing I've thought of and wanting to add to the discussion. Hope it makes sense.

EDIT.
Oh forgot. When collisions are implemented again. A mech which shuts down while in the air falls and takes damage.

Edited by Dirus Nigh, 22 April 2013 - 05:00 PM.

[GaussDragon]

I agree that there is an imbalance between sniping and brawling at this point, and a pretty bad one at that. However, I disagree with most of OP's suggestions because something virtually nobody here has addressed is the fact that SRMs got nerfed into the ground. Is it any wonder the game has become snipe-a-palooza? Snipers don't have to be nearly as worried about brawlers coming into range and tearing them to pieces. This is how the tradeoff should be; damage for range.

Playing these games in a light mech, I get bored to tears. Why? Well, the game is pretty much a camp fest for at least the first five minutes and you can't really go running into the fray as a light because your team is going to be camped out 600m or more behind you and you'll basically have to deal with the entire enemy team if you actually want something to shoot at. Granted, I could mount PPCs on my light mech, but that only contributes to the original problem: overabundance of sniping. If it gets to the point where even light mechs are mounting PPCs then GG game balance I say.

Edited by GaussDragon, 22 April 2013 - 07:04 PM.

[Grieg]

http://mwomercs.com/...weapon-balance/

It is logical that players will want the most effective mech builds they can make out of any of the given chassis. Everyone will try to Min/Max their mechs; and if you don't, you really should. This is as it should be.

Using cover to shield oneself from fire is simply common sense. Firing weapons during a jump and landing behind cover is a very effective tactic to not only deliver damage, but protect oneself. The tactic is not flawed, nor is it an exploit (as I've read so often as of late).

Weapons such as the ER PPC and Gauss Rifle are not poorly implemented. They function in the game as intended - deliver concentrated damage at range. They have their drawbacks, given the heat and tonnage required to field them. The Gauss will even blow up, and will probably kill you if it is in a torso hardpoint. Seems balanced to me.

Combine all of the above - Min/Max builds, jump and fire behind cover, and large amounts of high damage concentrated weaponry - and you have the current situation of Cataphract / Highlander poptarts.

What is the issue? How do you fix it? Should it be fixed?

I think the issue is this: We are free to put any weapon into any mech, given we have the critical slots and available tonnage. Mech designs are afforded too much freedom here, combining too many abusive possibilities, which not only stray from canon but make the game less fun in practice. Anymore, I've found 8v8 matches to be 5 poptarts, 2 assaults and a light mech. This doesn't encourage battlefield tactics, strategic cooperative game play, or creative thinking - it is simply finding the best line of cover, and may the best snipers win.

If you've read this far - thank you.

My proposed solution would be to limit the number of "large" weapons a chassis could carry, by tonnage/weight class of the mech.

What could be classified as a large weapon?
PPC / ER PPC
Gauss
AC/20
AC/10
LB 10-X AC
Large Pulse Laser
LRM20
LRM15 (Maybe?)

Allowed number of large weapons, per weight class:
Light - 0 (zed)
Medium - 1
Heavy - 2
Assault - 3
100 Ton Mechs - 4

Combine these weapon limits with tonnage limits on drops, and I believe that would force the balance of mech builds toward well rounded combat platforms, and less toward specialized sniper builds. Furthermore, this really pushes the game closer to traditional battletech lore, where you will never see a Raven with an AC/20 duct taped to it.

Perhaps hero mechs could deviate from this, allowing more than the normal number of large weapons?

Thank you for reading.

Edited by Grieg, 22 April 2013 - 07:14 PM.

[buttmonkey]

i agree with the shake idea completely, i also have another suggestion which i just made a topic on, leg actuator durability. this would basically give heavy mechs an amount of jumps before their legs give out under the continuouse strain of being landed on.

this makes sense in the real world too, just look at planes if nobody checked the tires every time the plane landed eventually it would land and the tires would give out in an explosion.

[Mason Grimm]

DeadlyNerd, on 21 April 2013 - 04:46 AM, said:

sorry, but making the screen and crosshair shake during JJ liftoff and mech falling is a feature and not a polish method.
you don't just "polish" the movement by adding crosshair and screen shake.

YOU don't but professionals designers do. Start with the framework and add new mechanics as required; essentially conduct polish passes until the desired affect is reached.

DeadlyNerd, on 21 April 2013 - 04:46 AM, said:

Polishing is reducing PPC heat, or increasing projectile speeds.

That is what professionals call balancing. Still, I suppose you can call it whatever you want and someone will nitpick over it.

DeadlyNerd, on 21 April 2013 - 04:46 AM, said:

who supervises the appointing of volunteer mods? I though one would at least need to have basic knowledge of how game mechanics are produced.

I'm no more involved in the development of the game, in any aspect, than you are. Volunteer Moderators are not responsible for answering specific questions on game dynamics, mechanics, development, balancing or anything along the lines of game production; this is what PGI and IGP are here for. We are here to ensure that the Code of Conduct is maintained (in which your original post, before your edit, was in breach of).

Have a super day!!

Edited by Mason Grimm, 23 April 2013 - 07:19 AM.
Clarification on Volunteer Mod duties added

[PropagandaWar]

Grieg, on 22 April 2013 - 07:11 PM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...weapon-balance/



Using cover to shield oneself from fire is simply common sense. Firing weapons during a jump and landing behind cover is a very effective tactic to not only deliver damage, but protect oneself. The tactic is not flawed, nor is it an exploit (as I've read so often as of late).


Thank you for reading.

I agree the tactic is not flawed. The game mechanic to let a 70-90 ton mech jump 120 meters into the air and then come crashing down with little to no leg damage because it burned all its fuel is flawed. PPC heat needs to go back up a little. It doesn't have the drawbacks of a gauss: Slow Reload time, Ammo limitations, weight and Mech Crippling Explosion. While the PPC has decent heat, rof, heat and range

[Mainman]

i must say i agree with u Catra i think there should be a shake indeed and mabye a small heat increase