45 replies to this topic

[Specterr]

I think the best balance would be uneven teams (as stated before). Simple in theory, difficult in practice however. Frankly I don't envy them for having to balance it because its going to be big mess.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

apparently theyre going with the "balance by having to join the clans then buy it"

"The clan warfare's going to come out after launch. It's going to roll out within the first two to three quarters after launch and it'll start with some basic content and then the players will be able to join the clans and then they'll be able to buy the clan tech,"

Specterr, on 18 April 2013 - 07:32 PM, said:

I think the best balance would be uneven teams (as stated before). Simple in theory, difficult in practice however. Frankly I don't envy them for having to balance it because its going to be big mess.

which Im guessing is why theyre delaying putting them in till six months after launch

[Royalewithcheese]

Keep in mind that the clans have gauss rifles and will probably be able to boat them like nobody's business. Expect like three kinds of gausszilla. Seriously y'all ain't ready.

EDIT:

This thing comes stock with 2xGauss, 2xLPL, and jumpjets. (Hilariously named Grandthrust Mk. 5.) And that's stock. If you swap out the LPL and some other stuff for CERPPC, that's a 60-point alpha at 1/3 of the 6xPPC Stalker's heat generation. With jumpjets.

Edited by Royalewithcheese, 18 April 2013 - 07:41 PM.

[jakucha]

Stronger clan mechs will just make focus firing even more important for IS mechs.

[Taemien]

Don't know where you all are getting this idea that clan is heads over heels superior to IS. This is where I know you all have been staring at charts and excel spreadsheets too long, rather than actually playing any sort of BattleTech.

Most official maps in TT don't allow Clan to get their badass ranges. I've also seen Centurion 9D's hold up against Daishi's, Loki's, and Madcats. And there isn't any 8v5s in our games, its usually 4v4 or 5v5. In addition their heat, compared to many IS mechs is outrageous. So saying that a Clan weapon should outclass an IS weapon by all aspects is wrong.

It doesn't work like that in practice. And I'm going to enjoy jeering at you all when you post whine threads about Clan Tech rolling too hot, or getting wasted by more efficient IS builds.

[MustrumRidcully]

Okay.

Uses Clan Gauss Rifles and Ultra Auto-Cannons instead.

[Eternal Hunter]

This would make clan WORSE then IS.
Clantech is supposed to be better then IS hardware.

However we do need balance in a match.
I really feel we need some sort of point based system / Battlevalue added into ELO so that both teams gets similar "worth" in tonnage\efficiency while still keeping the canon that clan mechs and hardware are superior.

This could and should mean that one side might get more mechs then the other, but this isn't so bad when 12v12 is going live.

Then you might see, say 9v12 or similar depending on how many clan mechs, clan hardware, tonnage and so on is on the teams.

[King Arthur IV]

sry buddy even a poor sob like me knows thats not right. clan tech is suppose to be way way advanced. im not sure where i read it but the balancing is going to be done somewhere within the confines of engines, hardpoints, crit slots.

there will be some trade offs but heat isnt one of them.

im sure the devs are thinking this one out, it would be stupid to impalement a known OP system that would ruin the current game. without trying to balance it.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Taemien, on 18 April 2013 - 10:36 PM, said:

Don't know where you all are getting this idea that clan is heads over heels superior to IS. This is where I know you all have been staring at charts and excel spreadsheets too long, rather than actually playing any sort of BattleTech.

Most official maps in TT don't allow Clan to get their badass ranges. I've also seen Centurion 9D's hold up against Daishi's, Loki's, and Madcats. And there isn't any 8v5s in our games, its usually 4v4 or 5v5. In addition their heat, compared to many IS mechs is outrageous. So saying that a Clan weapon should outclass an IS weapon by all aspects is wrong.

It doesn't work like that in practice. And I'm going to enjoy jeering at you all when you post whine threads about Clan Tech rolling too hot, or getting wasted by more efficient IS builds.

um... these aint TT maps

[FupDup]

Taemien, on 18 April 2013 - 10:36 PM, said:

Most official maps in TT don't allow Clan to get their badass ranges.

What about most official maps in MWO?

While we do have mostly short-range maps right now in MWO, pretty much everyone plays sniper trenches on them. Also, Clan UACs and Streaks (and LBX after we get slug rounds) are going to dominate close combat.

Taemien, on 18 April 2013 - 10:36 PM, said:

In addition their heat, compared to many IS mechs is outrageous.

Clan weapon heat is identical to IS weapon heat (IS standard lasers are not the equivalent of ER lasers for either faction, they can't be directly compared that easily). Nobody in MWO is going to leave their ER laser spamming stock variants intact. Everyone is going to min-max cram in as many Clan Gauss, UAC, and/or Streaks as possible and then throw in a few IS Large Lasers Clan ER Medium Lasers.

Taemien, on 18 April 2013 - 10:36 PM, said:

Don't know where you all are getting this idea that clan is heads over heels superior to IS. This is where I know you all have been staring at charts and excel spreadsheets too long, rather than actually playing any sort of BattleTech.

The strength of a Clan mech in MWO is not going to be the same as the strength of a Clan mech in TT. Here, we have convergence and min-maxing...things that didn't exist in TT (min-maxing cost a lot of money in TT but here it's free if you own the equipment). Maybe they'll be weaker here. Maybe they'll be stronger here. We can't make this judgement based on random-variable board games from the 80's. We have to judge it based on MWO's FPS mechanics.

Edited by FupDup, 19 April 2013 - 06:00 AM.

[Black Templar]

heat is the worst way to balance the clans. here is my idea:

in BT lore when a clan wants to claim a certain planet/sector for itself, the general who bets the least troops to conquer it would earn the right to fight (trial of possession?).

e.g. this could potentially break down the MW:O matchmaking to 12 IS mechs vs 8 clan mechs. clan tech is supposed to be better, but don't bring in cheesy balance methods, please.

[Sephlock]

Given PGI's stance on heat, Clan DHS will probably be more like 1.2 heat sinks.

We'll never have awesomeness like this:

[3rdworld]

They can't balance IS vs IS.

I fully expect institution of Clans to break the game.

[Zerberus]

WIth the CURRENT heat system Clan mechs are already going to be deathtraps, why bork it even more?

Why? Clan mechs are the epitome of "Run Hot or Die", they are not designed to be cool, they are designed to cram as much firepower as possible onto a chassis that has a fixed number of heat sinks.

Many will already get heavily punished by losing about 25% of their total heat dissipation due to non-engine sinks being downrated to 1.4 as it stands today.

Seriously, can we at least wait until we SEE one before we suggest nerfing them 3x a week? Or is this just sstarting up already so that when they get introduced everybody is already warmed up for their rageqq "Clans are OP, we told you so" posts? 0.o

If anything, do it over the number of players queued in teh match as would be "realistic" AND "canon". For ex. 3 lances vs 2 stars (12 vs 10) or 2 lances vs one star (8 vs 5)

Edited by Zerberus, 19 April 2013 - 06:43 AM.

[3rdworld]

Zerberus, on 19 April 2013 - 06:37 AM, said:

WIth the CURRENT heat system Clan mechs are already going to be deathtraps, why bork it even more?

Why? Clan mechs are the epitome of "Run Hot or Die", they are not designed to be cool, they are designed to cram as much firepower as possible onto a chassis that has a fixed number of heat sinks.

Many will already get heavily punished by losing about 25% of their total heat dissipation due to non-engine sinks being downrated to 1.4 as it stands today.

Seriously, can we at least wait until we SEE one before we suggest nerfing them 3x a week? Or is this just sstarting up already so that when they get introduced everybody is already warmed up for their rageqq "Clans are OP, we told you so" posts? 0.o

Death traps? The heat for their ERPPCs is the same as IS ERPPCs. Gauss & 2-3 ERPPC clan poptarts are going to be ridiculous. You think Highlanders are bad now, wait till the poptarts are doing 60-90 dmg per alpha.

Heck who cares that they overheat in 3 shots. The enemy will be dead in 2 anyhow.

[Alekzander Smirnoff]

It kinda hit me after listening to the NGNG podcast last week when Garth mentioned looking at heatsinks in general after launch. So I thought, why not throw this out there.

[FupDup]

Zerberus, on 19 April 2013 - 06:37 AM, said:

WIth the CURRENT heat system Clan mechs are already going to be deathtraps, why bork it even more?

Why? Clan mechs are the epitome of "Run Hot or Die", they are not designed to be cool, they are designed to cram as much firepower as possible onto a chassis that has a fixed number of heat sinks.

For the love of everything that is decent, can people PLEASE stop confusing stock Clan mechs for the player-made min-max monsters that are going to pop up? Nobody is going to run a stock Clan mech.


Everyone is going to be boating ballistics and missiles in them, which generate equal heat (aka not very much) as their IS versions.

Edited by FupDup, 19 April 2013 - 07:15 AM.

[Zerberus]

^^ You are aware in your omniscience that Omnimechs cannot add heatsinks in Omnipods, right? And that clan mechs still run hot as a general rule.

If clan omnimechs are implemented "traditionally", we can change weapons loadout and that`s it. So the guy that decides to boat 6 erppc on his dire wolf is going to have a heat efficiency of .50 and shut down afer every fourth shot

And exactly this is why the discussion is COMPLETELY POINTLESS. YOU are speculating exactl as much as I am, because we know NOTHING about how the clans will be implemented.

But the speculation of IS pilots is apparently enough to justify call for a clan nerf multiple times a week almost a yeae before we vcurrently expect them.

So it`s your fear mongering vs. my rational thought process that accepts that we both know absofuckinglutely diddly SQUAT.

The difference is I`m not accusing other people of being "confused" just becasue I don`t agree and have no tangible argument to present that is not speculation.
_________________
All the ignorance of the Run hot clan build style tells me is that many people that have such a deep rooted phobia (we are beyond simple fear, here) for the clans have never actually played them im TT for any significant period of time, AND that they are ignoring topics that have been teh source of discusion here for forever and a day.

/rocket science on

IS Assaults are impacted more by the current HS system than IS lights. Fact.
Clan Omnimechs are imgenerally pacted by heat more than comparable IS mechs because they usually carry fewer sinks and cannot add more or change type. Fact
LOGICAL conclusion: The same heat system that disadvantages IS Assaults over IS Lights will serve to disadvantage clan Omnimechs even more strongly.

/rocket science off
__________________

/piece

Edited by Zerberus, 19 April 2013 - 07:28 AM.

[FupDup]

Zerberus, on 19 April 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:

^^ You are aware in your omniscience that Omnimechs cannot add heatsinks in Omnipods, right?

You don't need extra DHS if you're using Gauss, UAC, and/or Streaks. Stop ignoring this.

Zerberus, on 19 April 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:

So it`s your fear mongering vs. my rational thought process that accepts that we both know absofuckinglutely diddly SQUAT.

The difference is I`m not accusing other people of being "confused" just becasue I don`t agree and have no tangible argument to present that is not speculation.

The fact that Clanners will at least be able to change their weapons means they will gravitate towards those weapons above to avoid the issues of having a fixed number of heatsinks. That's my argument and it's a helluva lot more tangible than what you're presenting. You keep assuming that they're going to be running horrible weapon loads like the Nova Prime.

Edited by FupDup, 19 April 2013 - 07:24 AM.

[FuriA]

Overheating CLAN Mechs is not the answer