85 replies to this topic

[AlmightyAeng]

Someone else started a thread about balancing Clan Tech out using heat...and drew a number of responses, one of which was, paraphrased "There are lots of ways to do it, but this isn't one of them."

Well, what ARE those ways? I'm curious as to what you think.

One idea that occurred to me is that, since Clanners are all about their code of honor and engaging individuals in 1v1 duels...how about giving Clanners a mechanic similar to our current 'teamkill' mechanic...but for team assists instead.

Assist a teammate on a kill? -XP and -CBills.

I'm sure some people will shout against this loudly...but it's just a thought.

Got more?

[FupDup]

If you think about every popularly proposed solution long enough, you can find flaws in every one of them. This includes the asymmetrical drops idea. The Clans were designed from the ground up to break TT in half and I simply do not have the creativity to find a way to bring them into an FPS environment without achieving similar results.


I have no envy for whoever at PGI is tasked with dealing with this mess.

Edited by FupDup, 19 April 2013 - 07:33 AM.

[Davers]

Show me how you can balance a mech with 2 UAC/20s, or 3 LRM20's with no minimum range. Or 6 Clan ERPPCs with a 90 point pin point alpha strike. Or 6 SSRM6. Every weapon that people complain about and call 'cheese' or 'low skill' or 'easy mode' are NOTHING compared to their Clan tech equivalents.

[Skunk Wolf]

Clan Tech is terrifyingly over-powered. When the Mad Cat and, from observing the changes on the Jaeger and the Cat in regards to the weapons changing plus the fact there is no ECM heavy, Loki hit, they are going to SHRED everybody. The only balancing factor right now would be cost, and I assure you, that is no balancing factor.

[Zerberus]

Until they`re here? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

Constant screaming for "Balancing" things we have no clue about is one of the primary reasons the metagame is in the state it is, continuing to do so will only make this worse.

If all of the current ideas were to be implemented, clan mechs would have abysmal heat efficiency, castrated loadouts (hardpoints instead of omni), and be fighting in non-clan sized units, hindered in their battlefield efectiveness by an arbitrarily inmlemented misunderstanding of Zell, against a 50% larger force. And these are by far not all of the "suggestions"

Please explain to me how that is NOT a recipe for the most massive clusterfucking of an unimplemented faction in any game ever written, and with it the predetermined destruction of the game due to a mass outflux of rightfully POed clanners?

Edited by Zerberus, 19 April 2013 - 07:49 AM.

[FupDup]

Zerberus, on 19 April 2013 - 07:42 AM, said:

Until they`re here? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

The best possible thing PGI or anyone could do with the Clans is create a super-secret beta-within-a-beta server for players (not just the devs) to try it out long before release. Our minmaxers and spreadsheet warriors will be able to hunt down issues much more efficiently than PGI's 3-second Jenners and 6 MG Spiders.

Zerberus, on 19 April 2013 - 07:42 AM, said:

Constant screaming for "Balancing" things we have no clue about is one of the primary reasons the metagame is in the state it is, continuing to do so will only make this worse.

Many of the issues in our current meta have been fully known and explained for quite some time now.

[Dirus Nigh]

Zerberus, on 19 April 2013 - 07:42 AM, said:

Until they`re here? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

Constant screaming for "Balancing" things we have no clue about is one of the primary reasons the metagame is in the state it is, continuing to do so will only make this worse.

this is BS. We do know clan tech. A lot of us have played with it for 20+years. Just the raw weapon stats, and how weapons already behave, IE streaks and ECM, is enough to know that clan tech will be overwhelmingly OP.

Clan tech is the number one reason why I have been advocatiing a large change on how streaks work. You think a streak raven is OP, or splatcat is OP, just wait untill you get hit by a clanner mech with streak sixes.

[Royalewithcheese]

HEY STOCK NOVA WHATS UP



NOTHING BRO JUST SHOOTING PEOPLE IN THE FACE WITH MY 84-DAMAGE ALPHA

Gonna just echo FupDup and say I do not envy the folks at PGI who have to balance clan tech.

[Hood]

Balance is easy. Clans would bid to fight. the lowest number bid won so the Clans would always go into a fight under what the IS had. So make it to where the clans get 1 star and IS gets 2 Lances.

[FupDup]

hood, on 19 April 2013 - 07:50 AM, said:

Balance is easy. Clans would bid to fight. the lowest number bid won so the Clans would always go into a fight under what the IS had. So make it to where the clans get 1 star and IS gets 2 Lances.

A quote of mine from a different thread regarding asymmetrical drops:

FupDup, on 18 April 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

Clan vs. IS only asymmetrical drops aren't the panacea that they sound like on paper. Reasons:
1. You split up friends. What if Billy is an IS roleplayer and Joe is a Clanner enthusiast, and the two get on Teamspeak every day and play MWO together until the sun goes down? Are people just supposed to never play their favorite faction again if they want to play as a team with their friends?

2. Good luck finding a magic ratio that works. 5v8 in TT is different than 5v8 in MWO, because here we have min/maxing and convergence. In TT, a Clanner's stronger weapons could end up spreading their damage all over the place on a mech and therefore it wouldn't make as much of an impact...and you couldn't min-max to your heart's content without packing some serious moolah. Here, they are going to hit your center torso more often than not and you can refit your mechs for free after you buy the equipment once. Also, we don't have BV or tonnage matching in any form, and I'm pretty sure the devs said they don't plan on any sort of BV. Point is, a Clan mech in TT does not have the same worth as a Clan mech in MWO and never will. Maybe it'll be less, maybe it'll be more. We can't make that judgement based on random-variable board games. We have to judge it by the FPS mechanics of MWO.

No matter what number is chosen, it is more likely than not going to favor one side over the other instead of having a 50/50 chance of winning for each.

[El Bandito]

Simple.

Just...



You know what, I'll get back to ya.

[Zerberus]

Dirus Nigh, on 19 April 2013 - 07:47 AM, said:

this is BS. We do know clan tech. A lot of us have played with it for 20+years. Just the raw weapon stats, and how weapons already behave, IE streaks and ECM, is enough to know that clan tech will be overwhelmingly OP.

Clan tech is the number one reason why I have been advocatiing a large change on how streaks work. You think a streak raven is OP, or splatcat is OP, just wait untill you get hit by a clanner mech with streak sixes.

1. We know clantech as well as we knew ECM before it was implemented.
2. Name ONE weapons system in this game that functions exactly as it dit in Tabletop, because that is our only reference.

The point is, none of us have any clue what the devs have planned, or even exactly when, much less how.

Maybe the Devs plan on 5 vs 12 matches? In which case where is the grounds for weapons and heat nerfs?

Maybe the devs will leave heat as it is after all (looking at something and changing it are radically different things) and leave the clans to run hot by default? In which case where is the call for Greater numbers and weapon nerfs?

Maybe the devs will set weapon values closer to IS values despoite their supposed "supremacy". In which case thaey are already nerfed any we`re just pining more on it for fun.

This is what I mean by "balncing things we don`t have a clue about" You canot take one variable from a system that is being arbitrarily followed to start with, universally apply it across the board, anmd expect a balanced result. Thats like saying "the scale is light on this side, But I can`t see the other side... maybe this 50 pound bag of rice will do the trick."

Edited by Zerberus, 19 April 2013 - 08:00 AM.

[jay35]

How would you balance Clan tech?

Allow all mechs to run it.

[Alois Hammer]

Quote

HOW WOULD YOU BALANCE CLAN TECH?

1: Rename game "MWO: The Inner Sphere"
2: Drop all plans of screwing things up further with asinine Clan garbage
3: Drink in all the delicious tears of the vat-scum fans

[Royalewithcheese]

Seriouspost: IMO the way to balance clan stuff is to make it balanced with but different than IS stuff. So like a clan ER laser might have same damage/heat as a stock IS laser of its type but have a longer range and firing duration. I can't think of a way that there's any way to make balance points like "ER Medium Laser = 1 ton IS Large Laser" work correctly.

Edited by Royalewithcheese, 19 April 2013 - 08:06 AM.

[jay35]

Alois Hammer, on 19 April 2013 - 08:04 AM, said:

[/b]


1: Rename game "MWO: The Inner Sphere"
2: Drop all plans of screwing things up further with asinine Clan garbage
3: Drink in all the delicious tears of the vat-scum fans

I could get behind this. The game is already fun and there's a nice diversity of chassis coming online now. Really, the only draw for the Clans is the sweet-looking chassis designs and some lighter-weight or better running tech/equipment. We could live without those at least for a couple more years as the rest of the IS content is published.

Edited by jay35, 19 April 2013 - 08:13 AM.

[OpCentar]

ClanTech should be high heat, long range, with limited chassis customization options (no engine swapping etc). Also, true DHS and unable to mount any IS tech.

If a IS chooses to mount ClanTech he will lose heat efficiency, more range for less damage over time.


And a Clanner should always be outnumbered, a Clan star (5) vs two IS lances (8) is the ideal ratio. I don't know how to balance three IS lances without giving either side a severe handicap.

[Royalewithcheese]

OpCentar, on 19 April 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:

with limited chassis customization options (no engine swapping etc).

I have mixed feelings about this - my suspicion is that you'll run into issues where some options for a given weight class are strictly better than other options. For instance the Kit Fox is basically dead on arrival because it's a light mech that moves at around 100 kph.

[Sadistic Savior]

Quote

HOW WOULD YOU BALANCE CLAN TECH?

Exactly the same way as we did in TT...numbers.

It worked fine in TT. It will work fine here too. The only question is what the balance needs to be. I am guessing 8 v 12 will work.

[Asakara]

Personally I say they should leave the tech as powerful as it is expected to be and instead balance it by having the clanners fight at 2 to 1 odds.

Let them take their 75 ton Timber Wolf Prime (BPV2 = 2,737), as long as we get 2 X 75 ton Marauder 3Rs (BPV2 = 1,363 each, so 2,726 for both).