133 replies to this topic

[Owlfeathers]

True enough. Poptarts also seem to typically not care about being shot in the back for some reason, I tend to just go behind them and kill them with 3-4 alphas to the rear CT.

[Mr 144]

Victor Morson, on 20 April 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

Here's where you misunderstand. Teamwork is limited by what you have available.

And if your team has multiple 6 PPC Stalkers, you are going to have heat problems. So even if your teamwork is superior, a team that's using even moderate teamwork with more viable designs will completely mop the floor with you.

Thus, Teamwork is still the answer. You need to identify these threats and then punish them with (hopefully) powerful counter designs.

If the enemy team has multiple 6xPPC stalkers, they are already an inferior opponent and needs no special tactics to defeat.. 4xPPC+4xSSRMs...2xPPCs+2xERPPCs...those are stalker builds...Highlanders have even more options an can generally run pretty heat, ammo, and self-defensive. The 3D is still probablly the best, and has no minimum range to its 35 pinpoint alpha.

So what are these powerful counter-designs ? Nothing out-alpha's them...DPS is moot if you don't survive long enough to put it to use (again, an equally skilled opponent). The best weapon are sniper weapons right now.

Mr 144

[Lonestar1771]

LexLuther, on 20 April 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

Still with the condescending tone, I see.
A team of snipers doesn't share all the weaknesses of one the is mixed class. As pointed out in my "stupid" post. Is it possible to have civilized conversation on the internet?

Please point out how a team of snipers that use team work can be trumped by a well rounded team that uses team work.

[Xandergod]

Victor Morson, on 20 April 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

If they're 6 PPC Stalkers, still Teamwork.

That's a match balance issue.

Mr 144, on 20 April 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

Meh...the current Meta annoys me, as I loathe pop-tarting, but I'm not all noes! over it. I have a few problems with your 'guide' however.

Encourage snipers to miss...any strategy which relies on the lack of skill of your opponent is not a valid tactic in mind. I happen to know a few very good snipers who gets quite upset with themselves if they miss a light/medium....counting on poor aiming skills / timing is a poor choice for strategy.

Know Your Maps....yes, cover..blah blah...this completely ignores the fact that most sniper are just as dangerous up close and personal as they are from range. Even normal PPC's minimum range is tough for a slower heavy or assault to close into without heavy damage taken. A light or medium simply lacks the firepower to finish one quickly in a team enviornment...and should be busy dealing with scouting and enemy lights/mediums.

There is no longer a short range weapon which surpasses the raw pinpoint damage of sniper weapons. Closing with them does nothing, as you either are running the exact same weapons, or are under-gunned. The highest damage weapons are also sniper weapons...heck, even the AC/20 is gauss damage good out to 450 meters...

Teamwork....Moot point...The enemy uses teamwork as well....again, counting on an inferior opponent is not a strategy.

DPS vs. Pinpoint Alpha...While I love me my Dips...I can't agree here either...although you have higher DPS your aim must be far superior to your opponents to win the war. You simply cannot sustain enough DPS (assuming equal skill) to reliably counter builds that can pop a side out in 2-3 alphas...once that occurs (if not just destruction in general) your DPS is now handicapped so far as to no longer be relevant.

All-in-all...a poorly thought out 'guide' which amounts to nothing more than L2P noob, and hope your opponent has not yet.

The only fix is SRMs...they use to be worth it to close into a sniper, as your optimal short range was superior in burst to there no-range alpha. Without a superior weapon system (restricted by range) there is no point in closing or tactics....only counter sniping.

Mr 144

1. By encuraging a sniper to miss you are making it harder for them to hit you. The lessens your overall damage and increases your chance to close distance.

2. Most snipers are not as dangerous up close. Due to the fact heat becomes an increasing issue the closer you get to a sniper. Sure the shot it's self is going to do the same amount of damage, but hitting a target moving a 90kph at a great distance is much easier then at close range. This is in addition to the fact that the most popular sniper builds don't move very quickly. I circle assault is my heavy and it don't even move very fast.

3. My aim doesn't have to be much better. Even though i'm moving while firing. The fact of the mater is that it is easy to hit a stationary target. As most of these snipers are. Even the pop-phracts jump in the same locations with the same timing.

4. Your suggestion that SRMs would help is invalidated by the points you made. You claim you can't get close, I argue, that isn't necessarily true.

[Merky Merc]

I have found that running around enemy snipers and capping their base works quite nicely. Especially on maps like Alpine, where they're counting on that big brawl on the flatlands between bases.

Works pretty well in 86+ kph heavies.

[TheSteelRhino]

LordBraxton, on 20 April 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

Hey genius!

Whats the counter to

snipers who use teamwork?

Ahh...Snipers hate this thing called...MANEUVERING. You see..if you move where they aren't...Use terraing for cover...ECM isn't even needed..Hit their cap...they have to respond..and are no longer snipers. If they don't respond..they lose...

Or..

Maneurver a medium or a dragon something with some long range firepower (ie..a "Balanced" build)...and shoot them in the back..if someone wants to stand in 1 spot and play sniper..that's its his own fault when he gets shot in the back or the cockpit.
Again..they'll either have to move, or..get taken out from behind..

This isn't rocket science. Don't ...play.....their...game.

[Jman5]

OP, you make solid points all around that I think many people unfairly dismiss. Look guys, no one is saying that it's easy or that there aren't issues that need addressing. However, there are some real fundamentals that a lot of players gloss over.

• Knowing the terrain and I mean really knowing it is critical. winding through crevasses and getting the first shot or two in can turn an engagement in your favor.
  
• Knowing the hardpoints and standard builds is mundane but unbelievably important. Do you know all the highlander hardpoints from memory? What about the Cataphract 3D? The Atlas D-DC? Don't waste your time blowing off an arm with nothing in it.
  
• You guys should be in a constant state of motion. Standing still should be something you only do for very very specific reasons. Always be looking to use the terrain as cover for your flank. Always be keeping an eye on the enemy positions and move to put terrain between you and their snipers. Don't stand still and just hope the snipers stupidly decide to get in brawling range. They wont!

In the immortal words of GI Joe: Knowing is half the battle.

[Mr 144]

LexLuther, on 20 April 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

That's a match balance issue.




1. By encuraging a sniper to miss you are making it harder for them to hit you. The lessens your overall damage and increases your chance to close distance.

2. Most snipers are not as dangerous up close. Due to the fact heat becomes an increasing issue the closer you get to a sniper. Sure the shot it's self is going to do the same amount of damage, but hitting a target moving a 90kph at a great distance is much easier then at close range. This is in addition to the fact that the most popular sniper builds don't move very quickly. I circle assault is my heavy and it don't even move very fast.

3. My aim doesn't have to be much better. Even though i'm moving while firing. The fact of the mater is that it is easy to hit a stationary target. As most of these snipers are. Even the pop-phracts jump in the same locations with the same timing.

4. Your suggestion that SRMs would help is invalidated by the points you made. You claim you can't get close, I argue, that isn't necessarily true.

4. ahhh...no, I do not claim I can not get close...my point is, there is no reason to get close as your weapons will be inferior and closing solves nothing.

3. so your counting on a noob sniper that stands still, huh? And yes, your aim must be far supeior against equally skilled opponent. The only way your DPS matters is if you consistently land all of your shots on a specific component...and you have more shots to land. Simple concept.

2. Unless you are talking about 8-mans (an entirely different topic) class balancing makes these arguments rediculous. If your 90kph medium is the 'counter' to an assault sniper...then what's the opponent's medium doing? Again, counting on an enferior opponent.

1. Same thing....over and over again...relying on poor skill and tactics used by the opponent. You will not make a sniper run out of ammo...you carry inferior weapons, even at close range, and/or lack pinoint damage to rip components off quickly. Again...no reason to close the distance, other than you've brought inferior weapons.

Under the current meta, snipers are simply superior in class to any other build, which is the only non-skilled component that can be used for comparison.

Mr 144

[Xandergod]

Jman5, on 20 April 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:

OP, you make solid points all around that I think many people unfairly dismiss. Look guys, no one is saying that it's easy or that there aren't issues that need addressing. However, there are some real fundamentals that a lot of players gloss over.

• Knowing the terrain and I mean really knowing it is critical. winding through crevasses and getting the first shot or two in can turn an engagement in your favor.
  
• Knowing the hardpoints and standard builds is mundane but unbelievably important. Do you know all the highlander hardpoints from memory? What about the Cataphract 3D? The Atlas D-DC? Don't waste your time blowing off an arm with nothing in it.
  
• You guys should be in a constant state of motion. Standing still should be something you only do for very very specific reasons. Always be looking to use the terrain as cover for your flank. Always be keeping an eye on the enemy positions and move to put terrain between you and their snipers. Don't stand still and just hope the snipers stupidly decide to get in brawling range. They wont!

In the immortal words of GI Joe: Knowing is half the battle.

I see so many people treating their mechs like artillery pieces. Move to a location, Stop. Engage. and repeat. This is a sure fire way to take alpha strikes to the face. There are some good snipers that know their ballistics speed and are incredibly accurate. This is not the case for most of them though.

[Silentium]

LexLuther, on 20 April 2013 - 10:48 AM, said:

snip -

• If you fight fire with fire, you might get burned. - With the growing popularity of long range combat, I've seem game play shift to a sniper vs. sniper style. The problem with this is that if the enemy has more snipers or have slightly better aim, You're probably going to lose the fight.......

snip -

This. All of my PUG assault matches since tuesday have played out in exactly this way.

[Mawai]

LordBraxton, on 20 April 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

Hey genius!

Whats the counter to

snipers who use teamwork?

I think the point of the post is that you want to engage snipers at close range .. and the way to do this is use the terrain and team work as much as possible. PPC boats overheat easily ... this doesn't matter much at range when cover is available or when pop-tarting .. it is a huge handicap when your enemy is on top of you and you shut down or blow yourself up due to overheating ...

[Xandergod]

Mr 144, on 20 April 2013 - 11:42 AM, said:

4. ahhh...no, I do not claim I can not get close...my point is, there is no reason to get close as your weapons will be inferior and closing solves nothing.

3. so your counting on a noob sniper that stands still, huh? And yes, your aim must be far supeior against equally skilled opponent. The only way your DPS matters is if you consistently land all of your shots on a specific component...and you have more shots to land. Simple concept.

2. Unless you are talking about 8-mans (an entirely different topic) class balancing makes these arguments rediculous. If your 90kph medium is the 'counter' to an assault sniper...then what's the opponent's medium doing? Again, counting on an enferior opponent.

1. Same thing....over and over again...relying on poor skill and tactics used by the opponent. You will not make a sniper run out of ammo...you carry inferior weapons, even at close range, and/or lack pinoint damage to rip components off quickly. Again...no reason to close the distance, other than you've brought inferior weapons.

Under the current meta, snipers are simply superior in class to any other build, which is the only non-skilled component that can be used for comparison.

Mr 144

The problem with saying that only noob snipers are stationary is the fact that it's not true. The fact of the matter is with snipers each shot is important. It isn't logical to lower your chances of connecting a shot by moving. That is why positioning is so important to snipers. They want the largest field of view with minimal risk to self. For the purpose of not having to be very mobile. Look at the current sniper builds. No one would call those mobiles at all. Do you think a 6 PPC Stalker is just running around the battlefield? Pop-a-phracts are stationary by their very nature. Fact of the matter is that these builds rely on superior firepower to even be viable. This comes at the cost of their ability to maneuver.

[alexivy]

this thread is fresh and exhilarating.

no, that's not it...

this thread is fun and original.

no that's not it either.

damnit, where the hell is roadbeer?

[Buffie]

Totally off the topic of the OP:

It's bloody amazing how the first page is all whining & snarky remarks to OP, but page 2 actually has a discussion. Trolls are too lazy to hit "next page" these days.

Just thought it was odd, carry on.

[Xandergod]

Mr 144, on 20 April 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:

If the enemy team has multiple 6xPPC stalkers, they are already an inferior opponent and needs no special tactics to defeat.. 4xPPC+4xSSRMs...2xPPCs+2xERPPCs...those are stalker builds...Highlanders have even more options an can generally run pretty heat, ammo, and self-defensive. The 3D is still probablly the best, and has no minimum range to its 35 pinpoint alpha.

So what are these powerful counter-designs ? Nothing out-alpha's them...DPS is moot if you don't survive long enough to put it to use (again, an equally skilled opponent). The best weapon are sniper weapons right now.

Mr 144

This is very true, but the reason I champion DPS, is suppressive fire as well as heat management. I used a Jager with 4 AC5 with no heatsinks. I rarely have heat issues. while doing 11.76 DPS. I'll go 1v1 against a sniper build any day. If the sniper manages a few alpha strikes with pin point accuracy, of course i'm dead. Most of the time it isn't the case. Then I punish them for their lack of continuous damage output.

[Rebas Kradd]

LordBraxton, on 20 April 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

Whats the counter to

snipers who use teamwork?

Most don't. They think their loadout is all the skill they need.

[Helican]

LexLuther, on 20 April 2013 - 10:48 AM, said:

It's called teamwork!!

Even a little bit helps. Do you know the biggest disadvantage to using these powerful alpha builds. Maneuverability. They work well in the right situation, but their advantage isn't insurmountable. The reason why it seems like the PPC stalker and pop-a-phracts are OP is the predictability of engagements. If you notice, there are locations where the pilots always go. They want height advantage and easy cover. If you fight them at range, you will lose. It's easy to manage high heat builds at a km away. It isn't when the enemy is all over you. This is where they show their true weakness. Personally, I've been having great success with my Jager-s and K2.

• Know your a maps - This seems like a no brainier, but I watch people walk into no mans land time and time again, only to die by sniper fire. On most maps it's pretty easy to close distance while remaining in cover. Ironically enough, these are the same tactics you use to avoid missile spam. They work equally as well avoiding high alpha builds. It seems people have forgotten that lesson. If you take the regular route to engagement, don't be surprised when snipers are waiting for you.
  
• If you fight fire with fire, you might get burned. - With the growing popularity of long range combat, I've seem game play shift to a sniper vs. sniper style. The problem with this is that if the enemy has more snipers or have slightly better aim, You're probably going to lose the fight. Take the war in Iraq as an example. When enemy combatants fought head to head with American solders, they were out trained, out gunned and overall out matched. Their campaigns didn't see real gains until they started using IEDs on the battlefield. You saw similar tactics in the Vietnam war and even in the American revolution. It's some real Sun Tsu ****, but The Art of War is time tested.
  
• Know your enemy - The two main sniper weapons are guass and erPPCs. It is my personal opinion that guass snipers are far more dangerous than their counterparts. Due to ammo restrictions, they are more likely to pick their shots more carefully. Also due to the lack of heat generation, when engaging at close range. They are far better at defending themselves. With this in mind, your best bet is to encourage them make bad shots. The lights and mediumsexcel at this with their ability duck in and out of cover.All the while, your heavy hitters can close distance. PPC users are at such a huge disadvantage at close range, it isn't even funny. Even with this disadvantage, you see most of them continuing to alpha strike in hopes to catch someone running by. They are plagued by frequent shutdowns, giving you more then enough time to move to their 6 and do you unmolested damage
  
• For the love of God, keep moving - My general purpose anti sniper build is my Jager S. It's equip with 4 AC5s, 2 med lasers and several tons of ammo. While I don't move very fast, I focus on shooting while moving. Because my rate of fire is much higher than and alpha sniper, I can land many shots while moving to more cover. These snipers have become very bold. Many will stay stationary while firing just until the point of overheating. if they even seek cover at all. With the ability to lay down suppressive fire at long range. Some simply just soak up damage and out DPS the enemy. Use this to your advantage, It's much harder to hit a moving target and many snipers will pick easy targets over moving ones. As for the pop-a-phracts. They normally have a target before they jump and engage. A moving target means they have to worry about vertical as well as lateral aiming. Making their shots that much more inaccurate.

​I understand people are up in arms about the current metagame. I'm not trying to say that the way things are now can't be improved. Just don't call for mass nerfs every time the game is played in a way you don't like. I'm willing to bet that people that hate snipers, hated missile users just as much. We all have to live with the fact that not everyone is going to play the game the same way. Sniping is a good mechanic and I argue that it isn't broken. What's broken is antiquated notions of combat engagement. You think these heavy hitters are OP now. Just wait until the clans arrive and pack serious alpha strike power.

Because the other team can't possibly use teamwork, or know the map, or move (because aiming is sooooooo hard...). I don't know why the proposed "solutions" to boats always seem to assume that its your team vs. that one boat.

And as much as you have the ability and right to defend your chosen style of cheese, those of us who don't care for it have just much right to call it cheese. No one is saying that sniping should be neutered, they are merely saying that that it shouldn't the the "best".

[Mr 144]

LexLuther, on 20 April 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

The problem with saying that only noob snipers are stationary is the fact that it's not true. The fact of the matter is with snipers each shot is important. It isn't logical to lower your chances of connecting a shot by moving. That is why positioning is so important to snipers. They want the largest field of view with minimal risk to self. For the purpose of not having to be very mobile. Look at the current sniper builds. No one would call those mobiles at all. Do you think a 6 PPC Stalker is just running around the battlefield? Pop-a-phracts are stationary by their very nature. Fact of the matter is that these builds rely on superior firepower to even be viable. This comes at the cost of their ability to maneuver.

Highlanders...yes, relatively stationary, as they usually pop up-and-down. Highlanders also are more likely to have additional weapon systems to compensate...Gauss in the (heavily armored) arm provides very decent heat-free targeting ability up-close. ERPPCs have no min range. Streaks or SRMs are included as well as defensive weapons, and they carry just as many as any other assault.

Stalkers...never stationary...always chugging along with the pack. A very stable platform to fire from while moving. Blind spots for sure, but rarely found alone without support. 6xPPC stalkers are not relevant as that already shows FotMism...4xPPC+4xSSRM or 2xPPC+2xERPPC are the 'real' builds. For another assault to close into less than 60 meter range where normal PPC use becomes questionable is a very difficult proposition....especially when they stay roughly with the pack.

3Ds...my god, those are anything but 'by their very nature' stationary. Still the premier Sniper platform due to decent mobility..parabolic arc jumping...options for non-XL 'zombie' use, or Gauss arm-targeting...ERPPCs here as well, so no min range whatsoever.

So I'll make this simple for you...what pair of assaults would you use to engage a highlander and stalker...be specific here.

What pair of heavies would you use to engage a pair of 3Ds ? (this ones your easy one, as there are options...but we definately get into skill arguments)

Mr 144

[Mystere]

LordBraxton, on 20 April 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

Hey genius!

Whats the counter to

snipers who use teamwork?

Even better teamwork?

Of course, having skilled team members also helps a lot.

ForestGnome, on 20 April 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

BUT WHAT IF THE TEAM OF SNIPERS APPLIES EVERYTHING YOU JUST SAID?

THEN WHAT?

god you people are so stupid. JUST PLAY BETTER!!!! COVER YOUR TEAMMATESSS!!!! you idiots do realize the enemy team of snipers can do (and probably is doing) the same thing right?

Don't be too hasty:

• Team A beats Team B
  
• Team B strives to get better and eventually beats Team A
  
• Team A gets royally p1ssed ( ) and decides to get better, eventually beating Team B
  
• Team B goes back to #2

Isn't this a situation that everyone want to happen? It's pure win-win, at least until Team C (the Clans) arrives and stomps both of them in equally brutal measure.

Edited by Mystere, 20 April 2013 - 12:25 PM.

[Ignatz22]

Sirs;

The "page two" folks make some interesting points, but what do you think of positioning? Everyone races to the Stargate, the Communications tower, the wrecked ship or the dropship; it's easy to set up sniping places there. With the larger maps coming, could the answer be forcing snipers to change position, and working to their rear if they don't?

Snipers need good sniping points, and a team placing itself on a hill obscured from the enemy snipers will make them move to less favorable ground to engage.

-ignatz22