99 replies to this topic

[Elizander]

Tennex, on 21 April 2013 - 08:57 PM, said:

but we have machine guns that CAN damage mechs. just not in this game.

We're looking for alternatives at the moment. We already have people pushing for the MG which I still believe should be around 0.69-0.90 DPS or PGI can add a slow heat buildup to the weapon to compensate for its higher damage, but it seems they are currently set on the idea that it's fine. If the MG buff isn't to their liking, maybe they will consider adding some of these weapons instead.

[Tennex]

the only reason its called a "anti- infantry" weapon. is because its used mostly against infantry. Because of its short range. shoot the infantry at your feet. and its spreadfire. all these mean its very good against infantry.

though as you can clearly see from the rules. it can damage mechs.

Edited by Tennex, 21 April 2013 - 09:32 PM.

[TOGSolid]

Tennex, on 21 April 2013 - 09:31 PM, said:

the only reason its called a "anti- infantry" weapon. is because its used mostly against infantry. Because of its short range.

though as you can clearly see from the rules. it can damage mechs.

Funny how the TT bible thumpers always, aaaaaaaaaaaaalllllllllwwwwwwaaaaaaaayyyyyyyssssss ignore that part.

[Blackfire1]

All they would have to do to "fix" MG's is this.


-Machine Gun damage have been increased from .04 to .07.
-Machine Gun heat has been increased to .05/sec
-Machine Gun spread and fire rate has been left alone.
-Machine Gun Ammo has been lowered from 2000 to 1500 per ton.
-Machine Gun Crit chance to internal has been lowered to a max of x1.5

Damage is still lower than Small Lasers. 2.1 vs 3
All the shots have to hit and the pattern is large if anyone's noticed.
Max damage range is still 90 meters.

It would take a 6 MG's spider ~600 rounds to do 48 point of damage over the course of 10 seconds. Remember, damage is spread on a larger pattern then an LBX-10. Also 10 seconds is a long *** time to be at point blank range.

[Utilyan]

Blackfire1, on 21 April 2013 - 09:35 PM, said:

All they would have to do to "fix" MG's is this.


-Machine Gun damage have been increased from .04 to .07.
-Machine Gun heat has been increased to .05/sec
-Machine Gun spread and fire rate has been left alone.
-Machine Gun Ammo has been lowered from 2000 to 1500 per ton.
-Machine Gun Crit chance to internal has been lowered to a max of x1.5

Damage is still lower than Small Lasers. 2.1 vs 3
All the shots have to hit and the pattern is large if anyone's noticed.
Max damage range is still 90 meters.

It would take a 6 MG's spider ~600 rounds to do 48 point of damage over the course of 10 seconds. Remember, damage is spread on a larger pattern then an LBX-10. Also 10 seconds is a long *** time to be at point blank range.

whoa.....WHO told you about the 6 MG spider!? Its sopose to be one of those "unseen" secret mechs.......

[TOGSolid]

Blackfire1, on 21 April 2013 - 09:35 PM, said:

All they would have to do to "fix" MG's is this.


-Machine Gun damage have been increased from .04 to .07.
-Machine Gun heat has been increased to .05/sec
-Machine Gun spread and fire rate has been left alone.
-Machine Gun Ammo has been lowered from 2000 to 1500 per ton.
-Machine Gun Crit chance to internal has been lowered to a max of x1.5

Damage is still lower than Small Lasers. 2.1 vs 3
All the shots have to hit and the pattern is large if anyone's noticed.
Max damage range is still 90 meters.

It would take a 6 MG's spider ~600 rounds to do 48 point of damage over the course of 10 seconds. Remember, damage is spread on a larger pattern then an LBX-10. A


lso 10 seconds is a long *** time to be at point blank range.

But there's no such thing as a 6 MG spider.

EDIT: Damnit Utilyan! Beat me to it!

EDIT EDIT: Wait, what if that's one of the two new Hero mechs coming down the line? >___>

Edited by TOGSolid, 21 April 2013 - 09:42 PM.

[Tennex]

Utilyan, on 21 April 2013 - 09:40 PM, said:

whoa.....WHO told you about the 6 MG spider!? Its sopose to be one of those "unseen" secret mechs.......

6MG spider is upon us!!! runnn it will kill you in 2 seconds!

(lol PGI insignia )

[Taemien]

Firelizard, on 21 April 2013 - 08:52 PM, said:

Point of fact: The light rifle is supposed to represent weapons like the main gun off the Abrams and Leopard. Those guns are just hilariously outclassed by battlemech armor.

This says something about mech machine guns...

I think the weapon you are looking for the represent the Abrams and Leopard II tanks is this: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Heavy_Rifle

But that isn't going to fit well on the mechs you're looking for. The idea of a 9 damage 10+ second cool down cannon for 8 tons isn't very appealing for those mechs. The Light Rifle would also have a long cooldown.

There is a reason AutoCannons are called AutoCannons.

Elizander, on 21 April 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

Let's call it a modernized / upgraded Light Rifle then that can damage mechs. Anything to fill the gap and to not make lighter ballistic heavy mechs not so bad is fine, even if we need to twist a bit of reality / lore to get there. Light AC2/5/Rifle whichever makes the cut.

There's no reason to twist lore. Just make machine guns take up a third or fourth of a hardpoint. Now you're bending MWO mechanics, not lore. Since they'd still take up .5 ton and 1 critical each. Thats the only thing really throttling their damage right now. The fact that you can only mount 4-6 on a mech even if you have 20 tons left over.

[Tennex]

Taemien, on 21 April 2013 - 09:42 PM, said:

I think the weapon you are looking for the represent the Abrams and Leopard II tanks is this: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Heavy_Rifle

But that isn't going to fit well on the mechs you're looking for. The idea of a 9 damage 10+ second cool down cannon for 8 tons isn't very appealing for those mechs. The Light Rifle would also have a long cooldown.

There is a reason AutoCannons are called AutoCannons.



There's no reason to twist lore. Just make machine guns take up a third or fourth of a hardpoint. Now you're bending MWO mechanics, not lore. Since they'd still take up .5 ton and 1 critical each. Thats the only thing really throttling their damage right now. The fact that you can only mount 4-6 on a mech even if you have 20 tons left over.

they have to increase the MG's DPS.

in TT MGs did 2damage/10seconds. In MWO. MGs do 4damage/10seconds.
the MG was only buffed 2x relative to TT (from its already low value)

compare this to the small laser's DPS of 3damage/10seconds in TT and 10damage/10 seconds in MWO.
Small laser got a buff in DPS by more than 3 times!

Edited by Tennex, 21 April 2013 - 10:06 PM.

[TOGSolid]

Quote

There's no reason to twist lore. Just make machine guns take up a third or fourth of a hardpoint. Now you're bending MWO mechanics, not lore. Since they'd still take up .5 ton and 1 critical each. Thats the only thing really throttling their damage right now. The fact that you can only mount 4-6 on a mech even if you have 20 tons left over.

Why go through all that work when PGI could simply just make MGs not suck? Machine Gun Arrays don't exist for another eighteen years.

Edited by TOGSolid, 21 April 2013 - 09:45 PM.

[Team Leader]

FupDup, on 21 April 2013 - 08:05 PM, said:

Now I have some hard evidence for why MGs aren't anti-infantry only:
[pic of tech manual] I'd like to see one of the MG-opponents argue against that.

Clearly photoshopped as a .50 cal machine gun can't possibly hurt a mech you guys are so dumb it's quintessential anti infantry weapon that means its only good against infantry!

[Elizander]

Taemien, on 21 April 2013 - 09:42 PM, said:

There's no reason to twist lore. Just make machine guns take up a third or fourth of a hardpoint. Now you're bending MWO mechanics, not lore. Since they'd still take up .5 ton and 1 critical each. Thats the only thing really throttling their damage right now. The fact that you can only mount 4-6 on a mech even if you have 20 tons left over.

Lore has already been twisted and turned and bent. We already have a gazillion MG threads. PGI doesn't agree. Now we're looking for alternatives to fill in those slots for smaller mechs.

[Tennex]

Elizander, on 21 April 2013 - 09:59 PM, said:

Lore has already been twisted and turned and bent. We already have a gazillion MG threads. PGI doesn't agree. Now we're looking for alternatives to fill in those slots for smaller mechs.

if PGI isn't going to put in wokring MGs because lore dictates it.(or i should say their interpretation of the lore) even moreso they won't put in working light rifles because rules dictate it.

and god knows they won't add anything noncannon.

Edited by Tennex, 21 April 2013 - 10:07 PM.

[Team Leader]

Tennex, on 21 April 2013 - 09:45 PM, said:

they have to increase the MG's DPS.
they increased every other weapon's dps by increasing its rate of fire. they did not do this for MGs.

they actually reduced MG ts DPS by a fourth

in TT MGs did 2damage/10seconds. In MWO. MGs do 0.4 damage/10 seconds.

First part is true. Kinda. Every weapon got only 1 shot per turn, so everything got 1 shot per 10 seconds (as far as I know, I've never played TT). Unfortunately the second part is not correct. The machine gun in MWO does .04 damage a bullet, at 10 bullets a second, which equals out to .4 damage per second. Which is 4 damage over 10 seconds. Compared to the TT of 2 damage over 10 seconds. It got doubled, however seeing as every other weapon had its DPS raised sky high from the TT (AC2 anybody?) the MG got the horrible, moldy, chewed on short end of the stick and has been sitting collecting dust at the back of mechlabs since early 2012.

[Tennex]

Team Leader, on 21 April 2013 - 10:04 PM, said:

First part is true. Kinda. Every weapon got only 1 shot per turn, so everything got 1 shot per 10 seconds (as far as I know, I've never played TT). Unfortunately the second part is not correct. The machine gun in MWO does .04 damage a bullet, at 10 bullets a second, which equals out to .4 damage per second. Which is 4 damage over 10 seconds. Compared to the TT of 2 damage over 10 seconds. It got doubled, however seeing as every other weapon had its DPS raised sky high from the TT (AC2 anybody?) the MG got the horrible, moldy, chewed on short end of the stick and has been sitting collecting dust at the back of mechlabs since early 2012.

yeah realized that and had corrected it. was reading the damage value instead of the dps

also for anyone who is wondering the per 10seconds thing is because each turn in TT is 10s. heat sinks dissapate 0.1/s so 1heat/10 seconds (turn)

Edited by Tennex, 21 April 2013 - 10:11 PM.

[KinLuu]

Elizander, on 21 April 2013 - 09:59 PM, said:

Lore has already been twisted and turned and bent. We already have a gazillion MG threads. PGI doesn't agree. Now we're looking for alternatives to fill in those slots for smaller mechs.

And you believe this to be more likely than a MG buff? Really?

[Elizander]

Tennex, on 21 April 2013 - 10:04 PM, said:

if PGI isn't going to put in wokring MGs because lore dictates it.(or i should say their interpretation of the lore) even moreso they won't put in working light rifles because rules dictate it.

and god knows they won't add anything noncannon.

I'm not saying that people should stop pushing for MG buffs. People will regardless of what I or anyone else says. This is a separate issue from MGs. It is not this or that, one or the other. Keep the MG discussions in the MG threads. That's what they are there for. This is a thread for lighter ballistic weapons that are not MGs. I think it's easy enough to understand.

[Tennex]

Elizander, on 21 April 2013 - 10:11 PM, said:

I'm not saying that people should stop pushing for MG buffs. People will regardless of what I or anyone else says. This is a separate issue from MGs. It is not this or that, one or the other. Keep the MG discussions in the MG threads. That's what they are there for. This is a thread for lighter ballistic weapons that are not MGs. I think it's easy enough to understand.

so what suggestion do you have ? knowing what PGI will and will not do since you seem to have a good grasp of that

Edited by Tennex, 21 April 2013 - 10:16 PM.

[Team Leader]

Elizander, on 21 April 2013 - 10:11 PM, said:

I'm not saying that people should stop pushing for MG buffs. People will regardless of what I or anyone else says. This is a separate issue from MGs. It is not this or that, one or the other. Keep the MG discussions in the MG threads. That's what they are there for. This is a thread for lighter ballistic weapons that are not MGs. I think it's easy enough to understand.

Perhaps you are right but the "light ballistic weapon" IS the MG. we shouldn't have to be adding band **** to problems that could be easily solved at the root. This is part of the problem with how ECM came to be. Missiles were broken, and instead of fixing the missiles, they put in an uberitem to block them. Now we are experiencing the fallout of that months later.

[TOGSolid]

Team Leader, on 21 April 2013 - 10:04 PM, said:

First part is true. Kinda. Every weapon got only 1 shot per turn, so everything got 1 shot per 10 seconds (as far as I know, I've never played TT). Unfortunately the second part is not correct. The machine gun in MWO does .04 damage a bullet, at 10 bullets a second, which equals out to .4 damage per second. Which is 4 damage over 10 seconds. Compared to the TT of 2 damage over 10 seconds. It got doubled, however seeing as every other weapon had its DPS raised sky high from the TT (AC2 anybody?) the MG got the horrible, moldy, chewed on short end of the stick and has been sitting collecting dust at the back of mechlabs since early 2012.

The funny part about all of that is that the MG is still listed as having 2 firepower in the mechlab.