23 replies to this topic

[SC1P1O]

Posts I have made about poptarts, has had people always respond in a smart manner, Well learn how to use tactics and flank!.

This is my response to you, you obviously have never had to flank in your poptart...

on a more constructive note, flanking on alpine or tourmaline in a brawler moving slowly is no easy task. The jump jetting heavies and assaults can easily see you when they jump to scout ahead or shoot your buddies. Thus giving them warning that your approaching, and being alpha'd by 2 or 3 pop tarts no mater what mech you are, is going to leave you hurting once you even get inside of brawling range. Assuming best case scenario,

1) they are all horrible shots, which depending on your elo may or may not be true.
2) they have regular ppcs and 1 gauss.
3) they didn't see you until you where 200m out.

at this rate you and lets say 2 other buddies can probably take them out, assuming they don't have ers. You might lose one guy, but at this point you have made your flank and you have the upper hand.

What can go wrong in a bad scenario?

1) they see you at at least 500 to 600m and can back a way to a good position to snipe.
2) you take 3-4 alphas and your ct is orange, and you lost your ac20.
3) one of your buddies died
4) they have erppcs and gauss rifles

Your dead, no matter how good a pilot, and why is this?
You flanked, you did everything tactically correct to ensure the highest probability of beating them, but the fact that they have good visibility most maps have terrible terrain for flanking, and that they have high alpha with generally good heat management, makes this pretty useless.

So when all you poptart people are yelling at us, who say you need to be put back into place to ensure MWO doesn't turn into a bunch of cod players camping their cap with ppcs and gauss. You need to get off your high horse and realize your using a broken mech and mechanic of the game to pad your K/D.

That said its not bad to use a good mech build, the problem is there is no effective counter to a poptart except another poptart, which just makes the game very boring, and repetitive.

I think it clear to you and everyone else that flanking in a brawler with nerfed SRMs and a slower mech, is not an effective counter to poptarts period.

1) the ct mounted srms and ac20 can't elevate at a poptart, reducing the ability to have higher dps. We have to wait till you come down to use them meaning we cant cycle our weapons as fast as you.

2) we are slow and it takes us a while to get close.

3) Pugs are inherently untrustworthy in a push and will most likely let you down.

So Now that we have this out, what are some ways PGI can help us be better able to flank poptarts and be effective as a brawler assault?

1) Give us a speed boost equipment like jump jets, that allows us to sprint over short distances to
a ) get from cover to cover while flanking, limiting the time we are in the open to get shot.

b ) to close quickly on a PPc boat or poptart. Helping reduce the amount of alphas we get at range

This like jump jets would recharge over time to allow continued use while in the game.

2) provide some pathways to the enemy via terrain that allows us to get close to them without having to take pathways that are A open, or B have long lines of sight to enable sniping.

This is not saying to do this for every map, but doing this will force teams to take both brawlers and snipers, more evenly distributing the types of mechs used in a game.

and the last thing pgi can do is
1) increase SRM damage

Edited by SC1P1O, 22 April 2013 - 06:39 AM.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

absolute nonsense, especially when coming from the lower base, you've got enough coverage at the far left to the radio mast to come outside the sniper range, who is not even that can, should prefer a different game play ... at least I've never Problems had in my hunter with 3x AC 5 to get some kills, and with my team, the opposing sniper team to 1-8 rushing or with a Bad taem ,the lower Base Brawler Team rushed my... to finally hear crying and learn to think tactically different paths to find and not to machrching like lemmings ... learns to fight with kreativity

Edited by CSJ Ranger, 22 April 2013 - 08:11 AM.

[Jonathan Paine]

To be a little nitpicky, the AC5 has the same range as an ERPPC and does not require you to get to the infamous <270m range to be effective. My usual beef with poptarts and (ER)PPC boats is this: why do alpha strikes have the same accuracy as chain fire? I want more skill in the game, and for me that means spreading out damage from alpha strikes in order to encourage people to chain fire with a small delay between each shot for accuracy.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Hi Jonathan

To whoever goes to where the enemy is waiting for him, I fight my own fault and max to 500 m with the AC5, everything else is a waste of ammo ... and everyone has their own style of play, and it should allow you to adapt, because also that skill can successfully fight the opponent, no matter what weapon, which plays style, or what experience he has ... you were all not in the army?

[Kraven Kor]

Yeah, flanking is hard. Except it really isn't.

As usual, "If I can do it, believe me, anyone can."

[Madw0lf]

SC1P1O, on 22 April 2013 - 06:39 AM, said:

Posts I have made about poptarts, has had people always respond in a smart manner, Well learn how to use tactics and flank!.

This is my response to you, you obviously have never had to flank in your poptart...

on a more constructive note, flanking on alpine or tourmaline in a brawler moving slowly is no easy task. The jump jetting heavies and assaults can easily see you when they jump to scout ahead or shoot your buddies. Thus giving them warning that your approaching, and being alpha'd by 2 or 3 pop tarts no mater what mech you are, is going to leave you hurting once you even get inside of brawling range. Assuming best case scenario,

1) they are all horrible shots, which depending on your elo may or may not be true.
2) they have regular ppcs and 1 gauss.
3) they didn't see you until you where 200m out.

at this rate you and lets say 2 other buddies can probably take them out, assuming they don't have ers. You might lose one guy, but at this point you have made your flank and you have the upper hand.

What can go wrong in a bad scenario?

1) they see you at at least 500 to 600m and can back a way to a good position to snipe.
2) you take 3-4 alphas and your ct is orange, and you lost your ac20.
3) one of your buddies died
4) they have erppcs and gauss rifles

Your dead, no matter how good a pilot, and why is this?
You flanked, you did everything tactically correct to ensure the highest probability of beating them, but the fact that they have good visibility most maps have terrible terrain for flanking, and that they have high alpha with generally good heat management, makes this pretty useless.

So when all you poptart people are yelling at us, who say you need to be put back into place to ensure MWO doesn't turn into a bunch of cod players camping their cap with ppcs and gauss. You need to get off your high horse and realize your using a broken mech and mechanic of the game to pad your K/D.

That said its not bad to use a good mech build, the problem is there is no effective counter to a poptart except another poptart, which just makes the game very boring, and repetitive.

I think it clear to you and everyone else that flanking in a brawler with nerfed SRMs and a slower mech, is not an effective counter to poptarts period.

1) the ct mounted srms and ac20 can't elevate at a poptart, reducing the ability to have higher dps. We have to wait till you come down to use them meaning we cant cycle our weapons as fast as you.

2) we are slow and it takes us a while to get close.

3) Pugs are inherently untrustworthy in a push and will most likely let you down.

So Now that we have this out, what are some ways PGI can help us be better able to flank poptarts and be effective as a brawler assault?

1) Give us a speed boost equipment like jump jets, that allows us to sprint over short distances to
a ) get from cover to cover while flanking, limiting the time we are in the open to get shot.

b ) to close quickly on a PPc boat or poptart. Helping reduce the amount of alphas we get at range

This like jump jets would recharge over time to allow continued use while in the game.

2) provide some pathways to the enemy via terrain that allows us to get close to them without having to take pathways that are A open, or B have long lines of sight to enable sniping.

This is not saying to do this for every map, but doing this will force teams to take both brawlers and snipers, more evenly distributing the types of mechs used in a game.

and the last thing pgi can do is
1) increase SRM damage

Funny stuff there man. I have little trouble getting into position on a flank (once Im there, all bets are off....) Unless
1) I poke my head up too soon
2) Someone on the other team has decided that my route was a good way to where they were going...

Course Im also usually going around 90+ KPH... think that helps

[Haji1096]

The solution:

Flank using a mech that is designed for flanking on a large map.

Use a fast medium with long range weapons to put pressure on the enemy snipers. Use cover and maneuverability to avoid their alpha strikes. Use your arm mounted PPC/Gauss Rifle to score hits when they are in the air.

You can't just shoehorn a slow short range brawler into a flanking maneuver on a large map with no cover.

[Phalanx100bc]

This may be less of an issue when 12v12 comes about as flanking will be a more viable tactic for some teams....

Of course if you are soloing with pugs who refuse to attempt even the most basic of communication via chat....forget it and good luck.

I HIGHLY suggest getting TS3, 99.9% of the people I play with are super cool and willing to help players new to TS.

Edited by Phalanx100bc, 22 April 2013 - 08:54 AM.

[Sam Slade]

So... still waiting for a counter argument that isn't: "I'm awesome... you just need to be more like me".

Anyone have anything of substance to offer?

[Madw0lf]

Sam Slade, on 22 April 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

So... still waiting for a counter argument that isn't: "I'm awesome... you just need to be more like me".

Anyone have anything of substance to offer?

Use a faster 'Mech
Use cover (Yes there is, in actuallity, plenty of cover, even in Alpine)
be Better than me. I actually suck pretty bad in combat

[RedDragon]

Sam Slade, on 22 April 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

So... still waiting for a counter argument that isn't: "I'm awesome... you just need to be more like me".

Anyone have anything of substance to offer?

The problem is - that's how it usually is done. Sure, flanking works. But only if you have the right mech on the right map, are quite a good player and don't have a useless PUG-team behind you. And that's not good game design, when a simple tactic that everyone can learn and master without much skill (aka as jump sniping - yeah, there are good snipers and bad, but you can already achieve good results with this with only a little practice) counters most other tactics except the well executed ones that take much skill. It's the same discussion we had about Streakcats - sure it's possible to counter them, but it's ridiculously hard for a built that takes absolutely no skill to use.
Same with jump sniping. You get good results with as little skill and work needed as possible, so everyone and their grandma are doing it and the people who don't want to put so much effort into countering such a boring tactic are driven to using the same tactic to compete. Welcome to MW4.

[Kraven Kor]

Sam Slade, on 22 April 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

So... still waiting for a counter argument that isn't: "I'm awesome... you just need to be more like me".

Anyone have anything of substance to offer?

So, what part of "I suck and still manage to do this" made you think I was implying "I am awesome and thus able to do this?"

[KuruptU4Fun]

Flanking may also be a possibility if PGI can get MASC to work and briefly go above the speed cap of light mechs... Here's keeping our fingers crossed.

[Sephlock]

[Davers]

I have no problem flanking on Tourmaline in my Atlas D. Even less in my D-DC. If I can get a couple guys to come with me (not really hard, people like to follow Atlases) then we usually roll the entire sniper nest. For best results I usually announce my intentions at the start of the match. Players who aren't running poptarts are usually pretty eager to do something other than hide behind the rubble at Theta.

[Wispsy]

You realise of course that if you have a speed boost to get close they have a speed boost to get away...

[Tremendous Upside]

Sam Slade, on 22 April 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

So... still waiting for a counter argument that isn't: &quot;I'm awesome... you just need to be more like me&quot;.

Anyone have anything of substance to offer?

Well. Biggest mistake most players make when they flank is in thinking they have to either move laterally or forward only to pull it off. If you're pinned down, sometimes the right answer is to fade back further where the cover is better. If it sucks for you, it likely won't do them much better if they have to move forward to use it - and when they move, that's when you make your flanking run. Draw them in and run around behind...

[TheMadPoet]

I flank in my Dragon. The downside being that, although I do distract and damage the poptarts, I end up getting alpha'd by a majority of the enemy team, and die a quick, ugly death. With PUGs, which I always play, it's always a toss of the dice. Many times I'll see my whole team moving as one, then as soon as I get into position to raise some hell, I notice that the rest of my team has pulled back, or are off chasing a light...

[Davers]

TheMadPoet, on 22 April 2013 - 02:43 PM, said:

I flank in my Dragon. The downside being that, although I do distract and damage the poptarts, I end up getting alpha'd by a majority of the enemy team, and die a quick, ugly death. With PUGs, which I always play, it's always a toss of the dice. Many times I'll see my whole team moving as one, then as soon as I get into position to raise some hell, I notice that the rest of my team has pulled back, or are off chasing a light...

Yeah, a lone Dragon like a lone medium, is a distraction not a threat to heavy and assault poptarts. It's sad that Dragons don't actually fit the description of a calvary mech (the speed to get there with the firepower to make a difference). They only have the first part. You need to bring some friends with you, or stay at range and hit and move trying to get someone to break off/reposition to deal with you. If the whole enemy team turns to deal with you, then you better run like hell.

[Zerberus]

Interesting.. I PUG exclusively and have no problems with my brawling DDC on alpine or tourmaline....

Then again, I noticed the line "In a slow brawler", and talking about the torso SRMS and AC, so I assume he`s also running an Atlas. A 350 engine is your friend, esp w /speed tweak, anything smaller is asking to get kiled first, esp in a cloose range build.

Other than that, it`s all about knowing where the enemy is, and where they can shoot. Don`t be at the latter, and use the terrain to your advantage while approaching the former. Brawler piloting is 90% approach tactics, 10% boom, crash, bzzt, kapow.

ALSO, most importantly: Don`t "chain" yourself to a straight line or the direct route. You run almost 65, which even makes you viable as a capper if need be (and it`S not on the other side ofthe map). Learn to use that speed and alternate routes to your advantage. Just becasue your whole team is beelining to epsilon doesnt mean you can`t walk up the hill slightly to your right and intercept the inevitable snipers before tehy know what hit them. In that particular case it also allows you to scout the low line on teh way up and war of any lights trying to cap the base, freeing up a scout to go searching for the enemy near the main force.

Don`t get me wrong, I regularly take fire on my way from a-b, too. But w/ otso twisting and seeing ppc and gauss rounds a mile away, it`s usually a light orange back side torso and maybe a bit of orange on a front side, with some yellowing on the rest.

But then again, that´s why the SLDF engineers gave us over 600 armor to play with in the first place

Edited by Zerberus, 22 April 2013 - 03:15 PM.