55 replies to this topic

[Nonsense]

Disclaimer: Don't bother discussing 8v8 here. It's a totally different situation.
Disclaimer2: If you spend a lot of money on this game, or if you play enough that cbills aren't a problem, this won't really matter to you.

In response to the many threads where people complain about Assault mode base capping mechanics, when I play alone I've decided to try to be "the guy" who goes and defends against the inevitable cap attempts. Obviously games vary a lot, but the average game is usually very similar. In the interest of full disclosure, I don't think the current Assault mode base capping is a good mechanic, but that's rather irrelevant because my opinion isn't shared by everyone and Assault isn't going anywhere.

On to the point:

I've found that in most PUG situations, if I return to base alone to defend against cap, I'm successful regardless of the outcome of the rest of the battle. Sometimes my team cleans up and we win...and sometimes they lose the main fight and we lose. Whether I die in the end or not, I very rarely fail to stop the cap for long enough for the main brawl to finish. When I don't go defend against cap, 90% of the time nobody else does it so loss is guaranteed if I don't go (ignoring times when we have a faster cap).


Being that defending can be mostly successful in a PUG situation, the question becomes: "is it worth it for me (or anyone else) to bother defending?"

The answer is no, and I'll tell you why.

The real problem with base defense is that there is little incentive for the individual doing the defending. There are 999 scenarios where the individual (or 2-3 people) returning to base when cap is announced or staying to defend from the beginning is that they get hardly any cbills for their efforts.

If I load up a heavy/assault and go brawl, I'll easily get 60-100k cbills from kills/assists/components even if we lose (non-premium/founders/hero numbers). When I go defend, sometimes I don't get a kill because I'm delaying and the light(s) attempting to cap obviously won't fight head on, and the match doesn't last that long. If I don't get a kill, I earn about 50-70k.

So, if a player wants cbills to buy new stuff, defending is counterproductive.


Common response: "Go play conquest."

While conquest might be more fair and possibly more fun, if I'm trying to earn cbills, the average conquest match lasts 2x as long as the same assault match, and cbill rewards even when you win (again, if you're objective-focused) are about the same as Assault. If you brawl in either mode, Assault is by far the faster cbill earning mode.


What about 12v12?

It's entirely possible that increasing the number of mechs on the field will alleviate some of the problem. If there are more mechs, there's more scouting going on (even if it's unintentional) and more possibility that actual lance on lance combat might take place at the bases. If that's the case, it could actually be fun.


Will community warfare change this?

Possibly? Probably not, unless the game modes are different enough and/or the incentive for winning the match outweighs the individual player's desire for cbills.


Suggested fixes

-Damage done while inside the base should be worth bonus cbills
-Time spent in combat defending the base should be worth bonus cbills
-Increase cbill rewards for winning
-Wait for 12v12 and re-evaluate
-Unlikely: Get rid of Assault and have king of the hill or something similar.

[Team Leader]

Got it.

[Deathlike]

If you're saying you should be rewarded for the "base cap health loss", I guess I could agree... but I don't think "rewards" in this case would be enough for some people. You do get a defensive kill (and that can be combined with a savior kill) for killing a mech that has capped the base... but the money is all in the actual kill.

Edited by Deathlike, 23 April 2013 - 11:16 AM.

[Otto Cannon]

Nonsense, on 23 April 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

Suggested fixes

-Damage done while inside the base should be worth bonus cbills
-Time spent in combat defending the base should be worth bonus cbills

i think these rules would simply cause the entire team to sit in the base getting defend bonuses and trying to force the enemy to cross the map and attack them.

[Dawnstealer]

About the only time I base-cap is when I'm shot up and all my teammates are dead. Even so, yeah - it would be ridiculously easy to just loop around and land on the base. I had one game where my own base was being taken, went back to find an Atlas, Stalker, and Jenner waiting for me (my poor Cicada did not last long).

Having the base have AI controlled weapons might be an idea. ML or SL - something to give Lights pause and enough that someone has to do more than just stand there and watch the bar go down.

[Nonsense]

Otto Cannon, on 23 April 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

i think these rules would simply cause the entire team to sit in the base getting defend bonuses and trying to force the enemy to cross the map and attack them.

For one, the specific suggested fixes don't have to be implemented. I don't really care what the actual solution is. Agreeing that more incentive is needed is really my only point.

That said, you'd only get the bonus if you're actually fighting someone...that's why the rules refer to "time spent in combat" and "damage done".

[Lupin]

Coming from the conquest POV I think pilots capping bases should get more Cbills and XP.
I find myself at the bottom of the score table most times even though I have been following the main objective and often win the match for the team.

[Tatula]

Lupin, on 24 April 2013 - 12:16 AM, said:

Coming from the conquest POV I think pilots capping bases should get more Cbills and XP.
I find myself at the bottom of the score table most times even though I have been following the main objective and often win the match for the team.

Maybe just possibly that the devs are trying to discourage cap rushes, but still want to have that as an option to win if a team has been disarmed or out of ammo.

[RealityCheck]

I like the idea of turrets or some form of AI controled base defense. The "Base is under Attack" warning would appear when your base defenses come under fire as well. Then include saviour kills for base defenses. If the defenses have enough teeth it can deter/damage the capper where a defender can come in and take the credit. Also rewards cappers with C-bill rewards for killing/kill assist on the base defenses. Its an interesting idea at the very least.

RealityCheck

[Noobzorz]

As always with such complaints (they are valid, btw, and I agree with OP), the real failure here is with players believe they are playing Farmville Warrior Online.
DotA 2 has neither of those, and people are determined to win, and they will play boring support heroes if the team needs one, but I'm not sure how you cultivate that kind of community. In the interim, if PGI introduced some sort of system (e.g. public ELO, or league system) and people's egos got involved, this would disappear overnight.

[Nonsense]

Noobzorz, on 24 April 2013 - 05:09 PM, said:

As always with such complaints (they are valid, btw, and I agree with OP), the real failure here is with players believe they are playing Farmville Warrior Online.
DotA 2 has neither of those, and people are determined to win, and they will play boring support heroes if the team needs one, but I'm not sure how you cultivate that kind of community. In the interim, if PGI introduced some sort of system (e.g. public ELO, or league system) and people's egos got involved, this would disappear overnight.

I tend to agree, and I did indicate that community warfare might do this if it's done correctly.

That said, even in games like LoL and DotA, players need to feel as though they can try new things. In those games (as far as I know...I haven't played much DotA 2) you get some amount of points for winning a match, but everyone gets a similar amount regardless of what they did to contribute to the win, so playing support roles has the same incentive as playing other roles. Obviously it varies with player personality, though.

In MWO, playing a similar support role (defending the base) doesn't have that same incentive. If you decide you want to grind for a new mech or module, you're better off playing a greedy brawler build and not giving a damn about who wins the match.

It's a problem.

[Inkarnus]

umm i dont know you but i remember there are bonus cbills for defending the base just because
ppl dont notice or bother doesnt meant it doesnt exist btw its added to the kill amount if you
actually kill him too

Edited by Inkarnus, 26 April 2013 - 02:54 AM.

[Clit Beastwood]

What about AI turrets at base, that can be controlled by recently deceased pilots?

[jeffsw6]

My understanding is that you receive the "Defensive Kill" bonus if you dispatch an opponent who is inside (or near?) a base your team controls. The area for this should be expanded to be larger on Assault, say within 500m of your base; and the bonus should include damage/assists as well as killing-blows. It should be a large reward, like double the CB/XP of a normal kill?

Also I think the game is in need of an "un-stuck" feature. Mechs keep getting stuck, it's probably real hard to prevent / fix entirely, and if you could un-stuck yourself 1 time per match, maybe that would work by just teleporting your mech back to your spawn point (coincidentally, near your base.) Then base rush would almost never be successful. There should be some penalty for "un-stuck," like it puts you at 100% heat so you would be shut down and have all that heat as you begin combatting the cappers.

Sane? Stupid? I don't know, just throwing an idea out.

[Dawnstealer]

Lupin, on 24 April 2013 - 12:16 AM, said:

Coming from the conquest POV I think pilots capping bases should get more Cbills and XP.
I find myself at the bottom of the score table most times even though I have been following the main objective and often win the match for the team.

Agreed with this, too. As a scout mech, my job is mainly to find the enemy, spot them, and then harass. CDA's (especially the 3C) do not dish out a lot of damage. A good match for me is when I break 200 damage. It would be nice if there was some bonus for capping Resource Points or Bases, with a bonus if you're getting shot up while doing so.

I mean, that's what you're SUPPOSED to be doing in those things, but you get so little XP, it's rarely worth it. I play the scout role because it's fun to me, but the in-game rewards for doing so are pretty slim.

Edited by Dawnstealer, 29 April 2013 - 04:47 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Something needs to be done for the Assault mode game, absolutely.

In an 8v8 pugging situation the options are extremely limited for effective base defense, ESPECIALLY considering the lack of ability to pre-select the map you're going to drop in.

In an 8v8 pug group, AT BEST, you're only going to know the make up 4 of the mechs BEFORE dropping, leaving 50% of your force a great big mystery. This means you either have to plan on bringing one or two mechs designed solely around medium/short range battle that plan to do nothing but sit at the base, or you have to hope some of the other 4 pugs have planned it.

Then there's the 'unknown unknowns' of the battle itself. Will the enemy team have mech valets (the people who seem to want to do nothing more than pilot their mech across the map to park it on your square), or will all 8 enemy mechs be utilized in a brawling battle, putting your team at a numerical disadvantage while you sit back doing nothing on your base?

Are the mech valets piloting lights, mediums, heavies or assaults? Are the one more two mechs that decide to defend your base appropriately stout enough or nimble enough to delay capture long enough for the rest of your team to come to your base's defense and assist you? For all the smaller maps, this particular question isn't as significant as it is when it comes to Tourmaline or Alpine where it's possible that the brawl is taking place so far from your base it's not even possible for a Raven to make it back before the cap is complete.

I don't think ANY of us log into this game thinking, "Oh boy, now I get to sit back at the base and hope someone comes to me!" But apparently there's those among us that are thinking, "Oh boy! Now I get to drive my mech to a square and stand on it!"

Ultimately Assault should be King of the Hill, with a single ticker that shifts from blue to red and back as each team progresses in 'taking the hill.' If the enemy has 90% captured it, my team should be required to 'undo' that 90% before it turns blue (much like Conquest capture points).

Either that, or put Assault capture time at a quickest possible speed of 7 minutes. This would give the team being capped time to break off in a more organized, less vulnerable manner, and get back to the base (especially in Tourmaline and Alpine) to defend.

[KingNobody]

I don't know what everyone has against basecapping. Sure, the "stand-on-the-square" mechanic is a little dull, but it's an important part of the game IMO. Firstly, it stops cowardly players from hiding and shutting down to extend the match and secondly, it provides a purpose for otherwise rather pathetic 'mechs like the Spider 5K and the Cicada 3C. Lastly, it provides a potential mechanic for the last man standing to squeak out the win.

I think that C-Bill and XP bonuses should be reinstated for cap wins on assault, then teammates won't be angry that you're reducing their income.


Edit: I DO think "Oh boy, now I get to drive my 'mech to a square and stand on it"

Edited by KingNobody, 29 April 2013 - 10:46 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

KingNobody, on 29 April 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

I don't know what everyone has against basecapping. Sure, the "stand-on-the-square" mechanic is a little dull, but it's an important part of the game IMO. Firstly, it stops cowardly players from hiding and shutting down to extend the match and secondly, it provides a purpose for otherwise rather pathetic 'mechs like the Spider 5K and the Cicada 3C. Lastly, it provides a potential mechanic for the last man standing to squeak out the win.

I think that C-Bill and XP bonuses should be reinstated for cap wins on assault, then teammates won't be angry that you're reducing their income.


Edit: I DO think "Oh boy, now I get to drive my 'mech to a square and stand on it"

First, it's a cheap and sleazy means to end the game without actually testing your skill, or in the 'BETA' aspect of the current state of the game, looking for any new previously unencountered bugs. It is a waste of everyone's time and effort.

Secondly, it's unfair to the other 6 or 7 people you've pugged with who want to play 'mech WARRIOR as opposed to 'mech VALET. The other people on the team typically do NOT want a CAP race, they want to actually battle.

As far as the "cowardly player" mentality, again, change it from the current "opposing cap point" mode to a single cap point equidistant to each of the 'drop points'. That way, those who want to CAP still can, though now it's a bit more risky, and requires more skill to survive it. Not just being lucky enough to play against a team that dedicates all its forces to attacking an opponent and who happen to be too far to RTB in time.

The "pathetic 'mechs" as you put have other purposes other than running to a square and standing on it. They can provide scouting and harrassing fade attacks to break up the enemy line.

The "last man standing" theory tells me that if he and his team played badly enough to where the ONLY option to win is to go stand on a square, they don't deserve to win.

I disagree with your thoughts on reinstating bonuses for cap wins. In fact a cap win should be an ELO nuetral event in Assault mode as well. Meaning you don't get a boost/decriment in ELO due to a cap occurring.

If you want to run around and stand on squares, your game mode should be conquest. In Conquest you get FIVE WHOLE SQUARES to stand on... Knock yourself out! Have fun!

The rest of us want Assault to mean 'mechs actually shooting at one another...

[Clit Beastwood]

Capping should probably involve some sort of an activity, i.e. there's a shield protecting the cap point. You have to disrupt 4 power stations to kill shield power, then you can start capping. If you leave the cap square for 15 seconds, the first power station comes back online, then the second, etc. That way someone returning to base can chase you off the cap point and hold you off long enough for partial shielding? Or something along those lines.. Just some sort of early warning system that enemy units are en-route. Or sensors at base that'll allow you to identify what's there, how many, something. Hard to believe that our magic stompy robots have sensors but our base would be totally without sensors.

[TruePoindexter]

Dimento Graven, on 29 April 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

First, it's a cheap and sleazy means to end the game without actually testing your skill, or in the 'BETA' aspect of the current state of the game, looking for any new previously unencountered bugs. It is a waste of everyone's time and effort.

Secondly, it's unfair to the other 6 or 7 people you've pugged with who want to play 'mech WARRIOR as opposed to 'mech VALET. The other people on the team typically do NOT want a CAP race, they want to actually battle.

As far as the "cowardly player" mentality, again, change it from the current "opposing cap point" mode to a single cap point equidistant to each of the 'drop points'. That way, those who want to CAP still can, though now it's a bit more risky, and requires more skill to survive it. Not just being lucky enough to play against a team that dedicates all its forces to attacking an opponent and who happen to be too far to RTB in time.

The "pathetic 'mechs" as you put have other purposes other than running to a square and standing on it. They can provide scouting and harrassing fade attacks to break up the enemy line.

The "last man standing" theory tells me that if he and his team played badly enough to where the ONLY option to win is to go stand on a square, they don't deserve to win.

I disagree with your thoughts on reinstating bonuses for cap wins. In fact a cap win should be an ELO nuetral event in Assault mode as well. Meaning you don't get a boost/decriment in ELO due to a cap occurring.

If you want to run around and stand on squares, your game mode should be conquest. In Conquest you get FIVE WHOLE SQUARES to stand on... Knock yourself out! Have fun!

The rest of us want Assault to mean 'mechs actually shooting at one another...

Then go find the enemy team and fight them - walking out 2km to the middle of the map blindly and then complaining that the enemy didn't run at you isn't "looking for a fight" - its "I'm lazy."