85 replies to this topic

[Mercules]

Taemien, on 24 April 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

Boats suck. This community really needs to realize that.

Boats are easy to understand and use. For some people that means they can instantly do "better" in them. When all you have to remember is that your PPCs are effective out to 540 and your ERs out to 810 and remember that the maxes are 1,080 and 1,620 it becomes "easy". The 6 LL boat is even easier as it is 450 & 900.

A lot of boats run with an Alpha trigger and then some other staggered setup. They mostly use the Alpha then fall back to the second staggered trigger if they have to. Again this makes it very simple. In almost every case they hit trigger 1. In a few situations they hit trigger 2. In rarer situations they hit trigger 3. This lets a person with even a standard mouse play and fire their weapons easily.

Most of them get used to the heat fairly quickly as well. You have the alpha heat and they tend to learn what percentage the heat can be at so they won't overheat. Then you have the staggered, which is where the better players tend to shine with the build. They can build their heat up with an alpha or two and then maintain dps with their staggered fire which is often enough to finish off the mech they wounded with the alpha.

It is also easier in that it is often less hectic. "Fire-Fire-Duck into cover" seems to be the main approach even with Splatapults. Once cooled down they pop back out for another shot. They don't have to figure things out second by second as to what they can fire, what the ranges are for things, how they need to lead this instead of that.

This lets people who might have issues making those snap decisions as to what to and how to fire play in a manner that is totally comfortable and paced to them. They do better than they would if pressed with a bunch of different weapon systems.


While I agree a more versatile weapon system is a better layout, it is harder to adjust to and use properly. By eliminating that the boating player is giving themselves a shorcut to better play.

[Karl Streiger]

Mercules, on 25 April 2013 - 05:04 AM, said:

While I agree a more versatile weapon system is a better layout, it is harder to adjust to and use properly. By eliminating that the boating player is giving themselves a shorcut to better play.

So game mechanics favours worser players...a fact that we all allready knew - eh....

[Mercules]

Karl Streiger, on 25 April 2013 - 05:09 AM, said:

So game mechanics favours worser players...a fact that we all allready knew - eh....

I purposefully did not say that.

Chosing to eliminate a variable to improve your game play does not make you, "worse". It means you are taking an easier route to achieve certain benefits. The downfall of doing so is that you have limited your options. This is why some boats have issues dealing with certain opponents.

Back in the heyday of Splatapults I used to find them early in fasters mechs with longer range weapons and weaken if not kill them before they could even fire. The funny thing was that they would then close with me to eliminate my PPC or LRM fire and take 3 medium lasers to the now damaged CT and die, for example. I had weapons for all ranges.

Against the jump snipers and PPC boating Stalkers I have started to use cover to close with them. Many of them do not brawl well in those mechs or they can't seem to hit a fast enough mech often enough so I can make straffing runs and distract them while my team closes the gap.

They can be perfectly skilled pilots that have chosen to eliminate a variable to simplify their life. When push comes to shove those are the ones that don't overheat from "just one more shot" but instead use just enough force to finish you off or hold their shot for when you twist back to fire upon them instead of wasting a heat intensive alpha on an arm.

Edited by Mercules, 25 April 2013 - 05:22 AM.

[SpiralRazor]

Rhent, on 23 April 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

Seeing as the General forum is dead, lets talk about Mechs boating PPC's?

How about the PRO's and CON's of allowing 60 Alpha Strikes to certain Mechs (Stalker but not the but not Atlas) other Mechs?

zzzzzzzzzzz.....you bore everyone.

[Joseph Mallan]

Rhent, on 23 April 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

Seeing as the General forum is dead, lets talk about Mechs boating PPC's?

How about the PRO's and CON's of allowing 60 Alpha Strikes to certain Mechs (Stalker but not the but not Atlas) other Mechs?

If you are not overpowered you are not playing right!

[Yokaiko]

SpiralRazor, on 25 April 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

zzzzzzzzzzz.....you bore everyone.

My atlases all have +60 point alphas.

[Rackminster]

The problem isn't the build or even PPC's. It's the people and the mindset. PPC's just got *good enough* to be worth using and people are. If you're standing out in the open and scratching your arse when a PPC Mech pokes around a hill and blasts you, get into cover. If you're unable to flank them or stay in cover - that's not the opposing Mech causing the problem.

I keep reading these same damn complaints about PPC's over and over and over - and I PUG - nothin' but PUG - and I hardly see any of these problems. It seems like what's happened is people finding "easy" power builds and exploiting the group dynamic to ensure a massive overload of alpha damage.

I don't see any of that in PUG's. People are there to romp and fight - it's rare to see a boat - and because the boats are rare, they're not a problem. Last night in a Raven 4X I found a Stalker PPC boat that opted to remain behind and snipe people. I got right behind him and ripped his little core out and he couldn't even fight back in any kind of effective manner. At one point he shut down from overheating and gave me a clear slam-dunk on his back. I almost felt bad for him.

PPC's are fine.

The problem is the way they're being used. This problem isn't based on the PPC. If they were nerfed, then the next 'best' weapon would be the one overused and griped about. It's happened over and over now with different weapons and equipment. The problem is the players and their groups. They're not there to have fun. They're there for numeric domination. Typically there's only ever one way to do that in any given scenario.

Change the PPC's and you'll just shift the complaints to the next weapon. It doesn't matter.

Here's a solution: Introduce a "Capacitor" charge that acts as a secondary 'drain' aspect - heat, energy use. Make it so larger engines produce a charge faster than smaller engines. Set up PPC's to use a large amount of power to fire - it only makes sense. Ballistics require almost nothing, as do missiles. Gauss Rifles use a good charge since it pushes the slug electronically. Lasers take a fair amount and Pulse Lasers use more.

Now your new problem is Ballistics. Everyone keeps mounting UAC5's now and murdering everyone else because UAC5's are the numerically best weapon. We should nerf their range, increase their heat, increase the jam tendancies.

Now your new problem is...

[Doctor King Schultz]

It's simply not fun to have your mech crippled from across the map because you came out of cover once. I understand that it can be countered and that players like us on these forums can adapt, but new players are going to perceive the current meta as unfair. They're going to play 3-5 matches in an awful trial mech, get blown apart in 1-2 shots by enemies they can't find, doing 0-50 damage themselves and they'll never give this game a second thought.

[Mercules]

Doctor King Schultz, on 26 April 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

It's simply not fun to have your mech crippled from across the map because you came out of cover once. I understand that it can be countered and that players like us on these forums can adapt, but new players are going to perceive the current meta as unfair. They're going to play 3-5 matches in an awful trial mech, get blown apart in 1-2 shots by enemies they can't find, doing 0-50 damage themselves and they'll never give this game a second thought.

Which is different from Splatapults only by range. Before it was, "They are going to engage a mech only to have a Splatapult jump over a building, land next to them, and dump a 90 point alpha into them. Two of those and they are dead or crippled."

We have shifted the target, but it will never go away. There will always be something that is "bad". That doesn't mean we shouldn't balance but instead that we shouldn't balance based off perception of something being bad but actual issues. I don't think PPCs are a huge issue just overused right now.

[Doctor King Schultz]

Mercules, on 26 April 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

Which is different from Splatapults only by range. Before it was, "They are going to engage a mech only to have a Splatapult jump over a building, land next to them, and dump a 90 point alpha into them. Two of those and they are dead or crippled."

We have shifted the target, but it will never go away. There will always be something that is "bad". That doesn't mean we shouldn't balance but instead that we shouldn't balance based off perception of something being bad but actual issues. I don't think PPCs are a huge issue just overused right now.

I don't disagree, I just know for a fact that I can't get my friends into this game anymore. Been following this game for a while and, IMO, PGI/MWO needs to grow.

[Rackminster]

Genuinely "new" players aren't leaping in with groups and experienced players and doing 4 and 8-person premades. They're joining up as raw recruits and thumping into PUG's. I guarantee there's plenty of fodder there. The game's learning curve is substantially lower than that of World of Tanks and it only gets 'hard' when you start to dig into the numbers and want to design the 'best' Mechs.

Only once they enter the silliness that is "teams" in this team-based game will they learn the power of the dark side.

[Doctor King Schultz]

Rackminster, on 26 April 2013 - 12:44 PM, said:

Genuinely "new" players aren't leaping in with groups and experienced players and doing 4 and 8-person premades. They're joining up as raw recruits and thumping into PUG's. I guarantee there's plenty of fodder there. The game's learning curve is substantially lower than that of World of Tanks and it only gets 'hard' when you start to dig into the numbers and want to design the 'best' Mechs.

You might be right, but I can only speak from my own experience. The group I play games online with is 4-10 people, depending on the night, and we play often. They've moved from game to game to game to game over the years. Two of us, counting myself, are experienced mechwarriors going way back. The rest of them would likely never have tried this game or continued playing if we hadn't.

I don't mind the current meta that much. I liked the game a little more before, but I'm still having fun. I'm still taking down the alpha bots in my mediums. But most of my lesser-skilled (in mechwarrior) friends that were having some fun a couple of months ago will never seriously get into this game as it stands. The barrier to entry is higher now than it was back then. It's a clear night and day difference.

I'll be here either way to the bitter end, but playing less and spending less because if I want to play games online with friends it's likely not going to be this one most of the time. Perhaps Mechwarrior games will always be a niche concept.

To be honest I don't think PPC's are a big problem, the overarching problem is huge pinpoint damage that punishes small mistakes very harshly. PPC's exaggerate that problem for newer players by making it happen more often at range, with less chance to react. Experienced players have a plan, new players react. This is not good for growing the game.

Edited by Doctor King Schultz, 26 April 2013 - 01:33 PM.

[Shadowsword8]

JudgeDeathCZ, on 23 April 2013 - 08:45 PM, said:

I have to agree with OP.
Yesterday I played my 6 PPC Stalker for 2 games and I got 2 wins and 5 kills with over 350 dmg each...then I switched back to my brawler HGN bcuz it was like cheating .

I get more kills and more damage done with my 4 large laser stalker. Should we nerf large lasers?

Those who have issues with the 6PPC stalkers are either those who got unlucky and faced one of the 5% of trully skilled stalker pilots, or those who keep making noobish mistakes. For exemple, I bet the OP kept his torso aimed squarely at the stalker the whole time, and didn't try to use his arms as shileds for his approach.

Here's a tip: Don't try to outgun a Stalker, whatever it's weapon mix may be, in a face to face standup fight.

[Captain Stiffy]

Royalewithcheese, on 23 April 2013 - 05:40 PM, said:

1 Gauss + 2 ERPPC Cataphract > 4 PPC Staker > 6 PPC Stalker.

My 6 ppc stalker is out-of-this-world and nothing less. I have a growing collection of screenshots of 6 kill matches. SIX KILLS! That's a freaking rampage on the other team... is it fair? I dunno. Whatever the best weapon is, I'll probably be boating that.

Royalewithcheese, on 23 April 2013 - 05:40 PM, said:

1 Gauss + 2 ERPPC Cataphract < 4 PPC Staker < 6 PPC Stalker.

Fixed. From first hand experience.

Edited by Captain Stiffy, 26 April 2013 - 02:34 PM.

[mtvnews]

Taemien, on 24 April 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

Its not.

But what confounds me is how bad the average forum goer is at this game. They have always complained about the gimpiest configs in the game (2x AC20, 6x SRM6, 4x ERPPC, 6x PPC, or any jump sniper). Here we have someone who got 350 dmg and they said they felt like they were cheating. When I can score double or triple that in a Jagermech with 2 Medium Lasers, 2 AC5s, and 2 SRM6s, or even with my 4x Med Laser, 2x LRM15 Catapult (even post nerf).

I don't typically carry high alphastrike configs, but I can effectively put down damage consistently at all ranges with most of my configs. So my numbers are usually higher than the rest of my team (except when I'm in a light mech, then its only half the time), and my opponents as well.

Boats suck. This community really needs to realize that.

heres a mod with 6x er ppc's 2 ams's with 4,000 ammo: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...7869e0a07a02ab5

[Soy]

Kurt Loder is a Necromancer!

[LordBraxton]

Tennex, on 23 April 2013 - 05:31 PM, said:

its just ERPPC imo.

PPC mechs still have that short range weakness. just get a light mech in there and they are efffdddd

only if the assault pilot is stupid, and has no teammates around.

a smart 6ppc stalker will huddle behind his teammates, and allow them to deal with anything that manages to get close.

which is usually nothing, or a pesky spider or something, but nothing that could really do damage to the stalker before his allies clean up

people keep thinking about balance in this 1v1 vacuum

all balance has to be considered in an 8v8 format

is a lone 6ppc stalker easy to counter?

of course

is 2 6ppc stalkers hiding amongst 6 teammates easy to counter?

no, there is no counter, unless you have some serious burst damage on your team as well, either your own PPC boats or dual 20s or gauss\ppc snipers

long range burst damage is very powerful, there should be more severe tradeoffs

6ppcs should not even be a viable build, it should shut down in one shot

I remember firing 6ERLL at once in MW3

stock supernova

and exploding

Edited by LordBraxton, 26 May 2013 - 06:11 PM.

[Chavette]

mtvnews, on 26 May 2013 - 06:04 PM, said:

heres a mod with 6x er ppc's 2 ams's with 4,000 ammo: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...7869e0a07a02ab5

I'm in love.

[Nehkrosis]

i lol'd (at kurt loader reference. is that guy still alive?) ^^^^


also, whereas i do agree that high alpha ppc stalker boats are lame, cheesy, and annoying, there still handle-able-able.
remember they deal massively reduced damage close range. if you brawl, and brawl well, they get decimated.

Edited by Nehkrosis, 26 May 2013 - 06:11 PM.

[SpiralRazor]

Doctor King Schultz, on 26 April 2013 - 12:34 PM, said:

I don't disagree, I just know for a fact that I can't get my friends into this game anymore. Been following this game for a while and, IMO, PGI/MWO needs to grow.

Its growing just fine....youre friends most likely arent cut out for this kind of game...May I suggest Call of Duty?