378 replies to this topic

[ryoma]

short answer

Yes

Long answer

YEEEESSSSSSSS

The Centurion, Hunchback, Treb, Stalker, Quickdraw, Catapult, and Awesome all look too large compared to the Light mechs, the Cataphract, and the Atlas.

[Goregrimm]

Yes, yes, 100% yes! I love the Centurion but it is ridiculously huge compared to other mechs. Scale is a big issue with me. I would love to see it addressed.

[BillyM]

Make the Cent smaller? Are you kidding me?

I have one that I do VERY well in, and I can tell you RIGHT NOW that mech absorbs more damage than any other medium out there. They don't get called zombie's for nothing.

...you scale those hitboxes down and you'll see a centurions doubly-whoop all other mediums for damage-soak abilities.

--bilyM

[evlkenevl]

Trebuchets were fairly common when they came out, not nearly as much anymore. I see Hunchbacks and Cents almost exclusively. Even though the Hunch has that massive RT, it's still a better profile overall than the Treb. The extra speed on the Trebs doesn't help much with a profile that big. The missile blob on it's left arm is almost as big as the HB's hunch. The Cent is as big as the Treb, but can "zombie" better.

Mass doesn't equate to size, I know. If that's the case, Cents and Trebs should be able to look like Swiss cheese before they die due to having more empty space between vital components.

[Nebelfeuer]

evlkenevl, on 05 July 2013 - 03:54 PM, said:

Trebuchets were fairly common when they came out, not nearly as much anymore. I see Hunchbacks and Cents almost exclusively. Even though the Hunch has that massive RT, it's still a better profile overall than the Treb. The extra speed on the Trebs doesn't help much with a profile that big. The missile blob on it's left arm is almost as big as the HB's hunch. The Cent is as big as the Treb, but can "zombie" better.

Mass doesn't equate to size, I know. If that's the case, Cents and Trebs should be able to look like Swiss cheese before they die due to having more empty space between vital components.

I will not agree here:
Trebs are by design range supporters: their tall but slender frame allows for good overview while uneven ground does not pose much of a problem due to their high riding weapons - concerning enemy fire at range hight is not as much a problem as bulkiness and that makes a Treb very good at dancing through enemy sniper fireworks on the open field without getting hit and returning more acurately.

For brawls small mechs like the Hunchback (that partly is that small to compensate the massive hunch) are more suited since they have better feeleing for were they are stepping in closequarter fights and they can take advantage of other mechs hight since aiming low limits the field of vision of taller mechs.

And then there is special snowflakes like the Centurion that though being tall and wide in frame (wide armes that get hit often but can be used as shields + unhitable centertorso) that are totally imbalanced in multiple areas but can be considered balanced as whole.

Overall I´d say we have quite a good balance, that takes certain roles into account for certain mechs, here, with only a few exceptions IMHO - I´d name the Awesome as to way broad( not to high though).
.

[Typhoon Storm 2142]

Tennex, on 25 June 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

though PGI has not been using cannon to scale their mechs. It seems like they just upscale or downscale randomly

http://grammarist.co...g/canon-cannon/

[Daeonwolf]

The idea of scaling is a good one, but there's a major issue with it. Because mechs can only depress their torsos and arms so far, you'd have people doing the same thing I did way back in the original Mechwarrior game: taking out 95 ton Battlemasters with a 20 ton Locust because you run up close and shoot the legs out from under it. Weapons and torsos will only depress so far and right now, at least every mech can have a decent shot at an opponent that gets into 'clench' range.

[Big Giant Head]

Stalker shouldnt be resized.
They have to change its side torso hitbox

Awesome, Treb and Cent needs to be resized, maybe but maybe quickdraw

[Strum Wealh]

Well, the Devs (specifically, Dennis de Koning, the Art Director for MWO) did address the scale question(s) in ATD 42.

Quote

Question from BlackIronTarkus: Can you explain what is the reasonning/process for deciding what size a mech should be? More specificaly the quickdraw and the stalker.

Answer from Dennis: This is a tough one because no matter the reasoning, it’s largely subjective.
Addressing the Quickdraw and/or the Stalker specifically would be misguiding as all ‘Mech are subject to the same process.

When determining scale, we consider presumed mass and density as well as comparing silhouettes.
Many forum posters have used volume to determine what they believe to be the best method, but right from the start; we figured that this is not enough, and most certainly should not be the sole deciding factor. The main reasoning behind this is density. The missile boxes on the catapult, for example, have quite a bit of volume but not so much density; whereas the average fuselage is assumed to contain an engine which implies a lot more density despite the volume.

So, just because a ‘Mech is heavier (or lighter) than another, does not mean it should be taller (or shorter).
We also compare the ‘Mechs to at least two heavier and two lighter from the front, side and top; and adjust accordingly.

Earlier on, when we had only a handful of ‘Mechs on the roster, they were easier to scale as there were fewer comparisons to work from. As the population grew, it has become increasingly difficult, and now, even the smallest of adjustments makes a huge difference. As scaling is cubic (as opposed to linear), literally one foot of adjustment adds or removes what feels like 2-3 tonnes.

Admittedly; given the time, I would like to make a couple tweaks here and there, but it’s not as easy as one might assume.

Quote

Question from Felio: How feasible is it for you to address Mech scaling? (such as mediums being large enough that they are just as easy to hit as assaults, even at top speed) Is this something you'd like to do in the future?

Answer from Dennis: To re-scale a ‘Mech is not as simple as most might assume; it’s not just: 1.) select geo; 2.) rescale to x%; 3.) save.

As far as art is concerned, there are quite a few steps that would have to be taken.

Rescaling the actual ‘Mech geometry is just one of the many steps involved. There is also the re-scaling of every variant module (weapon) and damaged versions of the geometry; then there’s the re-scaling of LOD’s and hit-boxes (which would need re-alignment) and then re-exporting.

Depending on the amount of re-scaling, ancillary geometry i.e. Ladder rungs, tie-down cleats etc. would have to be scaled independently to retain consistency. This would necessitate re-baking the AO as well as texture correcting.

There’s also re-scaling and exporting the skeleton, retargeting animation and correcting foot-slide and other inevitable animation adjustments.

FX origin nodes would also have to be re-aligned. Then there’s (pov) camera and cockpit re-alignment.

Additionally, Alex Iglesias (aka "FlyingDebris"), the Lead Concept Artist for MWO, also touches on the questions of scale and geometry in MDB 13 (particularly at around the 23:40 mark).

[Tennex]

Strum Wealh, on 16 July 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

Well, the Devs (specifically, Dennis de Koning, the Art Director for MWO) did address the scale question(s) in ATD 42.
Additionally, Alex Iglesias (aka "FlyingDebris"), the Lead Concept Artist for MWO, also touches on the questions of scale and geometry in MDB 13 (particularly at around the 23:40 mark).

yeah alex is cognizant of scaling issues relating to balance. which is in vain because the modeling team ruins his efforts by making these mechs all sorts of wrong

Edited by Tennex, 16 July 2013 - 05:13 PM.

[Steven Dixon]

I 100% agree that the sizes of these mechs should be altered. I'm not sure if it is something that can be easily fixed though.

[Unbound Inferno]

Why didn't they get it right the first time? That would be a nice question to have answered.

[wickwire]

the quickdraw's size is the worst

[Pezzer]

Im just gonna come in late to the discussion and say that Meds need a 5%-10% reduction is overall size. The Hunchie should get a smaller hunch as well, even though that defeats the purpose of said Mech. As always with a Hunchie, RT gets cored before anything else due to size/how easy to hit it is. Been a problem since the game's inception, which ofc is an added challenge to a 50 ton mech that can carry an AC/20. It's there for balance, but after they started adding all these crazy newer mechs (last 5 months), that dynamic has been unbalanced. It's been unbalanced for all the Mediums, arguably.

And to add to the size-change-suggestion-argument-hoobaloo, Dragon/Awesome players have been begging for this since Open Beta Launch. They need to finally do something about it, or better, temporarily replace those Mechs (since it takes PGI time to fix things). I've seen too many Dragon players get destroyed simply because of that nose. One of the reasons being that I think the nose was enlarged in the past 6 months, it didn't used to have those air intakes to my knowledge (the lower section of each side of the nose has something that looks like a possible air intake). If they removed the intakes on the Dragon nose and re-added "nose drift"(Dragon's nose used to wildly shake while walking, which gave pilots a slight advantage), that would partially fix the Dragon's insta-CT coring issues. And ofc the only way to fix the Awesome chassis is to reduce its' size. It's way too large for its tonnage, especially when comparing it to the newly-added Stalker.

Oh, and side note, did they take shake/wobble during movement off of most of the Mechs when they took collisions out? I swear I remember Mech-shake being a bit more evident in the past..

[Adridos]

Tennex, on 16 July 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

yeah alex is cognizant of scaling issues relating to balance. which is in vain because the modeling team ruins his efforts by making these mechs all sorts of wrong

Which is strange considering they are working from his own orthos.

Centurions width compared to concept art is his own doing. Stalker's front profile, ...

[zorak ramone]

Is there any way we can get volumetric calculations for all the other mechs (as were done for the catapult and the stalker) and have them posted on the front page?

My guess is that some mechs, like the Atlas and Awesome are also way to big relative to other mechs.

[Flying Judgement]

Tennex, on 23 April 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

too small? too big?

both its too wide and too short need to be taller and skinnyer

[Big Giant Head]

Most of the mechs that have hitbox issues can be easily resolved with proper armor, crit slot and internal structure distribution, but mechs like Awesome and Centurion need to be looked at from size perspective.
Centurion is too hollow, and Awesome is to wide.
Stalkers hitbox is completely screwed up, just check it out in mechlab. His torsos are taking up way too much of his CT

[GRiPSViGiL]

I kinda felt the Mediums seemed large compared To Heavies. They should make sure the sizes make sense.

[Strum Wealh]

GRiPSViGiL, on 28 July 2013 - 01:53 AM, said:

I kinda felt the Mediums seemed large compared To Heavies. They should make sure the sizes make sense.

However, there is the matter of where and when "the sizes make sense".

The BT source material tells us that all 'Mechs are between 8 and 14 meters tall.
This would mean that the smallest 'Mechs (e.g. Flea, Locust) are around 8 meters (~26.25 feet) tall while the tallest 'Mechs (e.g. Atlas, Annihilator) are around 14 meters (~45.93 feet) tall.
In other words, the smallest 'Mechs are supposed to be just over half the height of the largest 'Mechs.

The BattleTech Centurion, a very humanoid 50-ton 'Mech, would be on the order of about 10 meters (~32.81 feet) tall if we take the entire head assembly to be about the same size as a large BMC Mini (~3.30 meters long x ~1.39 meters wide x 1.34 meters tall)) and use normal human proportions - a mere two meters (~6.56 feet) taller than the smallest of 'Mechs (which it outweighs by a factor of 2.5, while only being ~25% taller) and four meters (~13.12 feet) shorter than the largest of 'Mechs (which outweigh it by a factor of 2, while being only ~40% taller).


Riley Elf (larger Mini-type car - estimated size of Centurion head assembly)


By comparison, the M1 Abrams MBT masses 61.3 metric tons (~23% heavier than the Centurion, and only 1.3 tons heavier than the Dragon) has a hull length of 7.93 meters (26 feet), a width of 3.66 meters (12 feet), and a height of 2.89 meters (9.47 feet).



For MWO, the Atlas is ~17.6 meters tall - a ~26% increase over the canonical height.
For MWO, the Centurion is ~14.7 meters tall - a ~47% increase over the estimated canonical height.

If the Centurion were re-scaled relative to the Atlas (that is, 26% taller than its BT height), it would be on the order of 12.6 meters tall (the same as the current height of the MWO Cicada).
By contrast, if the Atlas were re-scaled relative to the Centurion (that is, 47% taller than its BT height), it would be on the order of 20.58 meters tall (about 17% taller than it is now).

A MWO Flea made to the same scale as the MWO Centurion would be on the order of 11.76 meters tall (slightly taller than the current height of the MWO Raven), while a MWO Flea made to the same scale as the MWO Atlas would be on the order of 10.08 meters tall (about midway between the heights of the MWO Jenner and the MWO Raven).
Most likely (IMO), the MWO Flea and MWO Locust will simply be set to "between 8.0 and 9.5 meters tall".

Depending on how one looks at it, either some Lights and most Assaults are too small and Mediums are about right, or most Lights and Assaults are about right and most of the Mediums are too large.

Thoughts?