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Crashes / Hud: Either Fix It Or Roll It Back -Now-, People Are At Their Break Point


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Poll: Rollback or prioritize a fix for the crashes & HUD issues? (48 member(s) have cast votes)

Do you agree with the OPs suggestion?

  1. Yes (32 votes [66.67%])

    Percentage of vote: 66.67%

  2. No (14 votes [29.17%])

    Percentage of vote: 29.17%

  3. Other (Explain) (2 votes [4.17%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.17%

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#1 Victor Morson

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 11:06 AM

Let me prefix this entire conversation by saying I have an insane tolerance for bugs. I will play the crashiest, buggiest games if I enjoy them and generally just shrug off glitches; in fact, I generally am interested by the glitches themselves and how they came about. So I am not saying this lightly.

But if a fix for the HUD issues and crashing is not pushed immediately, this is the first time I've honestly really been concerned about the future of the game.

To put it frankly, many units are just BLEEDING pilots right now, who refuse to play until this is fixed. Our unit is doing considerably better than that (Others we've known have imploded over it, though), but I'd be lying if I wasn't going to say this is crushing morale.

For context, last night we wanted to play 5 drops against another 8 man in Conquest. Do you know how many drops it took to get games where less than 1 person disco'ed? 22.

To make matters worse, among those disconnects, at least 2-3 people were afflicted with various HUD bugs ranging from no guns, to no map, to inverted cap points - and we were generally lucky to even get in with that. On top of that, we also encountered the new cap point issue that prevents one team from taking a point (even after the whole team dog piled it).

This isn't acceptable PGI. I'm not attacking anyone here, I think you guys are awesome overall, but this is really really really bad. And it's not just impacting us "serious" players; look around at all the PUGs that are more than a little upset by the "AFKers" and "Discos." While that happened a little before, I'd say as much as 95% of it are these bugs.

Whatever changes you made in the last two patches (the last hot fix made an already existent problem worse in our experience) needs to either be addressed in the very next patch, or rolled back. I realize you'd be reluctant to rollback the Highlander and Jaggermech for obvious reasons, but re-implementing them after the rollback before pushing the update would likely be fine as I doubt they're what broke the game (possible as it may be - and at least you'd know for sure then.)

All I know, and this part I cannot stress enough, is if PGI pushes another large content patch without addressing these issues, a lot of people are going to quit. I'm not talking drama-quit, coming to the forums to rant quitting, I mean they're going to just quietly slink off and stop playing.

I'm not one of them, and I'm trying to push through this, but if you ask any units that are aware of the problem and they'll tell you the same thing; some PUGs might not realize the extent of it (only noticing their own bugs), but they too are getting frustrated by not getting a single match in without losing people, and I really don't think the majority of them are on purpose right now.

Again, please do not turn this into a flame thread, but the more comments the better (in particular if you feel strongly about this) - I'm not attacking PGI here but you cannot introduce bugs on this level and then leave them for this long; I know this is a "beta" but I am pretty sure everyone is on the same page that it pretty much means "Awaiting community warfare before a big PR push" and not actual beta; not when you have active paying customers.

If anyone is making the mistake of treating this like people should put up with this as paid beta testers, stop immediately. Nobody, not even people who don't play and are looking at the game from the outside, has that impression. If you burn people here, they won't come back for the "full game."

tl/dr: The second to last patch rendered the HUD unstable and began causing crashes; the hotfix seemed to amplify it. Either roll back the changes (even if it means taking HSR offline) in the next patch, and soon, or repair the issue before people outright give up entirely. Also whatever you do, do not release another big content patch until this stuff is fixed. While I love more content and want as much as possible, people are viewing this as a "Sell stuff, don't fix stuff" strategy - regardless of it's honest intentions.

EDIT: To put it simply, among the hardcore users, we never really talk badly about PGI - in fact many of us talk rather fondly of them. But I would be lying if I had not heard nothing but venom from the hardest of loyalists over this - if they're even around. This is really, really, really bad; the worst issue since Closed beta (when the game was in "real" Beta, making it way more acceptable).

Edited by Victor Morson, 28 April 2013 - 11:12 AM.


#2 Victor Morson

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 11:23 AM

Whoever voted no, could you explain why? Do you think the current game is stable / not frustrating with the HUD issues and crashing?

I'm honestly curious.

Edited by Victor Morson, 28 April 2013 - 11:23 AM.


#3 Renthrak

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 01:00 PM

PGI has already responded to this issue.

They have already fixed several crash bugs, with another crash being worked on for the next patch.

The HUD issue is complex, because it involves a half dozen different parts of the program, from the game engine to the UI overlay. There IS no single cause for the HUD bugs, which is why it isn't fixed already. It's taking time to track down all the different contributing factors and deal with them all. PGI is using various tools to track down the bugs, but it's not instant.

It makes no sense to say "No more content until the bug is fixed!", because the people working on the content are not the same people that are working on the bugs. To halt all other work while the bugs are squashed would leave at least half of PGI's staff doing nothing, a waste of time that would delay things like a lobby, better matchmaking, balance fixes, and a little thing called Community Warfare, and would not fix the bugs any faster regardless. The people who make the maps, draw the textures, adjust the audio, animate objects etc. do not have the skills to delve into CryEngine code to fix a HUD bug. All that they can do to contribute is to continue their own work.

If the process of beta offends you or your friends, take a break. Feel free to return once the game is considered 'finished'. Making silly demands isn't going to get us there any quicker.

Edited by Renthrak, 28 April 2013 - 01:00 PM.


#4 Jonathan Paine

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 01:09 PM

I will rudely say that I rarely agree with Victor's post. This one, however, made me pause and think: perhaps we need a two tiered approach to new patches:
1. Internal QA approves
2. Patch released with the caveat that only people willing to deal with serious instability should play until we have shook out the bugs.

Thoughts?

#5 DaZur

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 01:14 PM

Matches played since last stat reset = 1016

Number of Crashes = 0

Clearly the crashes and HUD glitches are an issue... That said, It's also pretty obvious it's a broad spectrum problem in that it varies from the severely affected to non-issue (like myself).

I'm hard pressed to believe PGI is choosing to ignore these issue as they are essentially core-game glitches. Then again... I believe they are struggling to isolate the problem.

I know they have a new QA system in house and hopefully going forward they can escape the hermetic test environment they had and spectrum bench-test their builds before compiling them and foisting them upon us to muddle through...

As far a folks not being able to ride the storm out... part of me struggles with the fact that they know this is a live beta environment and "crap happens" and they should be understanding of this. While the other half of me empathizes with the frustration these crashes and glitches can and clearly have upon the player base...

#6 Echo6

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 01:52 PM

I don't care about content if the bugs make it unplayable.

View PostDaZur, on 28 April 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

Matches played since last stat reset = 1016

Number of Crashes = 0

Clearly the crashes and HUD glitches are an issue... That said, It's also pretty obvious it's a broad spectrum problem in that it varies from the severely affected to non-issue (like myself).

I'm hard pressed to believe PGI is choosing to ignore these issue as they are essentially core-game glitches. Then again... I believe they are struggling to isolate the problem.

I know they have a new QA system in house and hopefully going forward they can escape the hermetic test environment they had and spectrum bench-test their builds before compiling them and foisting them upon us to muddle through...

As far a folks not being able to ride the storm out... part of me struggles with the fact that they know this is a live beta environment and "crap happens" and they should be understanding of this. While the other half of me empathizes with the frustration these crashes and glitches can and clearly have upon the player base...

Also, no one cares that its a "beta".

#7 DaZur

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 02:22 PM

View PostEcho6, on 28 April 2013 - 01:52 PM, said:

I don't care about content if the bugs make it unplayable.

Also, no one cares that its a "beta".

You may not care... But it's reality whether you choose to ignore it or not.

The code we are playing on is fluid and dynamic... So much so, often times one fix or addition to X affect Y. Sometimes Y has to take a backseat to X in order for X to be implemented with the pretense that with enough data collected from actual game-play matrix, they can solve the issue with Y. It's not pretty and it's not necessarily fair... but it's the nature of the beast though the course of development.

Like I said previously... If these glitches that make the game unplayable were "global" I would tend to agree with the OP... but the reality is there are many who do not experience bugs so egregious so as not to be able to play...

So who PGI placate today? Those that can play and want more content or those who struggle to and want nothing but bug fixes?

Edited by DaZur, 28 April 2013 - 03:19 PM.


#8 Victor Morson

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 03:01 PM

View PostDaZur, on 28 April 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

Matches played since last stat reset = 1016

Number of Crashes = 0


Same here. In fact, I am curious, what hardware are you running? I'm trying to figure out why I am immune when about 80% of the pilots in the Aces are not.

Just because you don't have the problem does not mean it isn't rampant anyway.

Edited by Victor Morson, 28 April 2013 - 03:02 PM.


#9 Demoned

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 03:03 PM

i voted no,
no crashes or hud bugs here

#10 Victor Morson

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 03:07 PM

View PostRenthrak, on 28 April 2013 - 01:00 PM, said:

It makes no sense to say "No more content until the bug is fixed!", because the people working on the content are not the same people that are working on the bugs. To halt all other work while the bugs are squashed would leave at least half of PGI's staff doing nothing, a waste of time that would delay things like a lobby, better matchmaking, balance fixes, and a little thing called Community Warfare, and would not fix the bugs any faster regardless. The people who make the maps, draw the textures, adjust the audio, animate objects etc. do not have the skills to delve into CryEngine code to fix a HUD bug. All that they can do to contribute is to continue their own work.


I'm not saying no more content before they're fixed; I'm saying that if they keep releasing new content that is causing problems without testing it, stacked atop bugs we already have, this whole deck of deck of cards is going to come crashing down.

They should not have released a patch with this level of crashes and HUD issues. They should have rolled back and introduced one thing at a time (the two 'mechs) the minute they realized how wide spread it was. If one of the two new 'mechs is causing the issue, then at least that narrows it down but that does not seem to be the case.

View PostRenthrak, on 28 April 2013 - 01:00 PM, said:

If the process of beta offends you or your friends, take a break. Feel free to return once the game is considered 'finished'. Making silly demands isn't going to get us there any quicker.


I really don't know how to make this any clearer, but the game is not really in what you would traditionally call a beta. It's in F2P "influx of content" state. Once they announce the game has gone 'Live' a lot of people are going to come look at it and they do not want that to happen until CW.

This has, IMO, barely qualified as beta since it went to Open Beta from Closed.

View PostDemoned, on 28 April 2013 - 03:03 PM, said:

i voted no,
no crashes or hud bugs here


Demoned's family motto is "F--- you, got mine."

What's your hardware? I'm immune to crashes but not to HUD; about 80% of the pilots I've encountered are immune to neither.

Edited by Victor Morson, 28 April 2013 - 03:06 PM.


#11 DaZur

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 03:31 PM

View PostVictor Morson, on 28 April 2013 - 03:01 PM, said:


Same here. In fact, I am curious, what hardware are you running? I'm trying to figure out why I am immune when about 80% of the pilots in the Aces are not.

Just because you don't have the problem does not mean it isn't rampant anyway.

I think "rampant" is a bit of an over-statement... ;)

Like I stated earlier, it a spectrum issue. Some peoples experience is completely unplayable... Others have occasional issues... while others have virtually none. It's really tough to bug-hunt when there is no constant... There are so many potential catalyst and the levels of individual results vary wildly. This is what I think is making nailing the crash issue down so flipping difficult...

I'm running:

- AMD Phenom FX 4100 quad core.
- 8 Gigs of RAM
- Nvidia Geforce GTX 550 Ti
- Windows 7
- Screen Rez of 1440 x 900
- Time Warner Cable Internet
** Nothing over-clocked

Average FPS = 45 to 55
Average Ping - 25 to 50

I get HUD bug maybe 3 time out of 20 matches... No crashes or game-stopper bugs.

Edited by DaZur, 28 April 2013 - 03:35 PM.


#12 Renthrak

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 05:14 PM

View PostVictor Morson, on 28 April 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

I really don't know how to make this any clearer, but the game is not really in what you would traditionally call a beta. It's in F2P "influx of content" state. Once they announce the game has gone 'Live' a lot of people are going to come look at it and they do not want that to happen until CW.

This has, IMO, barely qualified as beta since it went to Open Beta from Closed.


I know someone who swears up and down that professional sports are all rigged, that the outcomes are predetermined and it's all scripted like professional wrestling.

He may be right, who knows? The point is, however, that just because someone believes something in their own opinion, the way that the rest of us have to deal with it will not change.

MWO is in 'beta' because it comes with the disclaimer that what you're playing isn't finished, parts of the game will break on a regular basis, and that the 'finished' game may or may not look anything like this at all. Everyone seems to be demanding better performance from PGI's in-house testing, without even acknowledging that WE are a part of that testing ourselves. We agreed to that before we started playing. We were never promised a bug-free game, or that the beta builds would even be playable. In exchange for getting an early look at the content and getting to keep our 'Mechs when it goes final, we are guinea pigs for PGI. We should count ourselves fortunate that our feedback will influence the final game, rather than ordering PGI to make us happy right now.

Edited by Renthrak, 28 April 2013 - 05:15 PM.


#13 Zerberus

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 06:10 PM

View PostVictor Morson, on 28 April 2013 - 11:23 AM, said:

Whoever voted no, could you explain why? Do you think the current game is stable / not frustrating with the HUD issues and crashing?

I'm honestly curious.


I did.

I have both the crashes AND the HUD bugs as of this patch.

But I`m nowhere near my breaking point , and know others that feel the same, and we would prefer that you speak for youself and not assume to speak for everyone.

Sometime`s it`s not what your saying, but how you`re saying it. I`m not a fan of drama students simply assuming my support for their excursions in QQ. ;)

#14 Jonathan Paine

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 07:08 PM

After the last patch&hotfix, I would crash to desktop 1/4 of the time. Reinstalled the client, seems a lot more stable now. Makes me wonder if the Q&A tests on pristine rigs, far removed from real systems.

#15 Lucian Nostra

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 07:43 PM

It's getting absurd tried running some 4 mans with the clan today. First game 2 Dc'd. 2nd game 1 DC. 3rd game I DC. 4th game 1 DC.

Just wtf seriously? took till the 5th game that we where all able to drop. and in that plus each prior game at least one of us had HUD issues.

6th game 2 more got DC'd and called it quits for the night.

Played a few 2 mans after that we got into a game on tourmaline where 3 on my team and 1 on the enemy team DC'd, that's 25%!!

One of my clan mates will only run missile boats cause his FPS tanked 2 patches prior.

Sucks to see the bugs and rate of issues becoming WORSE instead of better

Edited by Lucian Nostra, 28 April 2013 - 07:44 PM.


#16 MangoBogadog

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 07:56 PM

It's pretty rare to see a match where no one is crashed/frozen. It's nearly always 8v7 8v6 6v7 ect.

It's frustrating.

#17 kilgor

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 08:00 PM

It does really need to be looked at. I had suspected that maybe an IRQ conflict could have been causing my problems and downloading a latency checker indicated some problems. So, I updated all my drivers, and the HUD issues still happen but the IRQ latency is within a good range.

Here is a link the the latency checker.
http://www.thesycon....ncy_check.shtml

Another funny thing is I have had more crashes on a Geforce card than a Radeon card but both still get the HUD bug.

#18 Straften

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 08:27 PM

View PostVictor Morson, on 28 April 2013 - 11:23 AM, said:

Whoever voted no, could you explain why? Do you think the current game is stable / not frustrating with the HUD issues and crashing?

I'm honestly curious.

I think that with this number of bugs, a rejoin feature could have dropped the games you needed to queue into down to 5. It seems like the best course of action to me at this point. Please check out the thread if you haven't already.

http://mwomercs.com/...le-in-progress/

View PostDemoned, on 28 April 2013 - 03:03 PM, said:

i voted no,
no crashes or hud bugs here


Well, most people do get them. If most people quit playing, it will become a problem for you.

#19 Asmosis

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 08:35 PM

voted no because the people doing new content dont work on the things that need fixing, so your not gaining anything from not doing new stuff. New maps didnt create the HUD bugs, new mechs arent responsible for the DC's.

Its been what, 10 days? and you say you have patience for buggy betas, pfft lol. Its annoying yes, but its part of a live test enviroment. If you dont like that, wait for the game to be released.

#20 DaZur

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 08:40 PM

View Postkilgor, on 28 April 2013 - 08:00 PM, said:

It does really need to be looked at. I had suspected that maybe an IRQ conflict could have been causing my problems and downloading a latency checker indicated some problems. So, I updated all my drivers, and the HUD issues still happen but the IRQ latency is within a good range.

Here is a link the the latency checker.
http://www.thesycon....ncy_check.shtml

Another funny thing is I have had more crashes on a Geforce card than a Radeon card but both still get the HUD bug.

IMHO the HUD bug is some bit of loose code (That the Devs are going to kick themselves for missing)... It's indiscriminate and pretty much effects all at one point and time.

Based on what I've gathered just from the forum posts... I'm pretty sure it's sync drops that is the crash culprit, as it's seems far more pervasive in that environment... and in PUGs it's likely the odd paired or 4-man drops doing it.

Edited by DaZur, 28 April 2013 - 08:41 PM.






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