32 replies to this topic

[WardenWolf]

I have begun to notice something in the aftermath of the changes to vision modes. Previously, almost all long-range sniping was done via the blue-toned thermal mode - but with that gone, and with the new thermal ineffective past about 700 meters (by design), sniping is now done on normal vision for the most part.

Thus it would seem to me that hiding in the trees should be effective cover to conceal your position, so long as you aren't firing or your mech isn't sticking up out of the cover. This is *not* the case, though, and I suspect I know why. But first, let me explain a situation recently where this was very noticeable.

I was in one of my Atlases, designed for long-range combat (ERPPCs and Gauss), on the normal Forest Colony map. I started on the hill-side, and moved to one of the nearby ridges that is covered with trees but offers a good view over the water and middle valley area. I crept forward, spotted some enemies and fired upon them (giving away my position both by sticking out of the trees a little and shooting). I received return fire from multiple mechs, and seeing that I was outgunned even at that range I pulled back, and moved about 30 meters to the side.

However, even though I was now back in the trees where I couldn't see anything and did not continue firing I kept receiving incoming hits, even after I had relocated well away from where I'd originally been. I had to physically move down off the hill, and as soon as I did the weapons fire ceased. This tells me that the enemy could visually see my mech, even though I was in dense tree cover and they were outside of thermal view range.

Now how could that happen - that I couldn't see them but they could see me?

One option is, of course, targeting - but I don't think they had a mech close enough to me yet (I was blind firing at them initially, not targeting them) and further I was in a D-DC with ECM.

The second, and only other option I can think of, is that they could simply see my mech at that distance despite the apparent cover... and this got me thinking. What is the draw-distance on features like trees? Could it be that they are being drawn for me, since I am right in the midst of them, but not for opponents ~1km out? If so, that seems like a pretty big problem! It would mean you would have no way of knowing if soft visual cover is effective unless you knew how far the enemy was away and what the draw distance was... which I suspect varies depending on the quality settings in-game.

Has anyone else encountered this? Any insights? Obviously one could just avoid ever using purely visual cover, but it seems like this would be a good dimension to strategy to have in a game like this.

[Foster Bondroff]

Trees have a varying draw line. Acutally you can reduce it or could reduce it to 10m via user.cfg.

Discovered this by accident, but made forrest colony a totaly different map.

[Treckin]

No one is listening because you couldnt post this in General Discussion.

Thank PGI for ruining your ability to effectively communicate with them or the overall community.

[aniviron]

This happens to me more or less constantly. I am crouched in a heavily wooded thicket, scouting shutdown in a raven or watching a valley with an awesome, when boom, out of nowhere, PPCs. Since I should have been invisible to therms and sensors, this means the only option is visual targeting, which means my opponent could not see the trees.

I will say however that under about 300-400m, thermal can let you see through the trees at least somewhat- but it is rare that I get shot at that distance and wonder how I was seen.

[keith]

Foster Bondroff, on 24 April 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

Trees have a varying draw line. Acutally you can reduce it or could reduce it to 10m via user.cfg.

Discovered this by accident, but made forrest colony a totaly different map.

that should be out, and is consider a abuse of game file tampering:D

[WardenWolf]

aniviron, on 24 April 2013 - 11:39 AM, said:

I will say however that under about 300-400m, thermal can let you see through the trees at least somewhat- but it is rare that I get shot at that distance and wonder how I was seen.

Yeah, I have noticed that - and it makes sense, I think. It used to be effective at even further ranges, which is why this never concerned me before (and also why I used to think anyone actually trying to make effective 'camo' was crazy - paint doesn't hide heat!).

I think it might be a good idea for PGI to look into this, and lock-in draw distances for stuff... or at least require it to be equal across all types of objects. That way you can reduce your draw distance if you want, but it would mean you wouldn't see enemy mechs out as far too. Personally, I prefer draw distance be infinite and it just be details / textures that get more complex the closer you get.

Treckin, on 24 April 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

No one is listening because you couldnt post this in General Discussion.

Yeah, I was wondering where I should post something like this now that GD is gone. This seemed like the best candidate overall, since the 'Maps' sub-forum was even less-viewed than this area :/

[Kargarok]

Could you tell if you were being hit by PPC's enough for your ECM to be effectively cancled, and therefor allowing the enemy to keep a lock on you? Well timed PPC's combined with BAP and Sensor Range should give the opposing mechs enough time to keep target on you. Barring that though, the tree draw distance thing should probably be addressed. Turning your effects down should be a hindrance not a benefit.

[WardenWolf]

Kargarok, on 24 April 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

Could you tell if you were being hit by PPC's enough for your ECM to be effectively cancled, and therefor allowing the enemy to keep a lock on you? Well timed PPC's combined with BAP and Sensor Range should give the opposing mechs enough time to keep target on you. Barring that though, the tree draw distance thing should probably be addressed. Turning your effects down should be a hindrance not a benefit.

One of the initial return-fire barrage was ERPPCs (based on the damage taken + visual effects). As I was relocating, though, I didn't see any further PPC type fire - I know there were lasers and Gauss, and I think some other form of ballistics. So it is possible they got a lock early, if they had the sensors boosts you mentioned, but that should have faded over time. Now *maybe* I missed some additional PPC fire in there (it just takes one, of course) but unfortunately I can't test this easily since we cannot yet drop on a map with just one other person to try and do such testing.

[Davers]

Don't forget, even if they couldn't see you they can still tell they are hitting something. They just kept on firing as long as the target reticle kept turning red.

[WardenWolf]

Davers, on 24 April 2013 - 01:06 PM, said:

Don't forget, even if they couldn't see you they can still tell they are hitting something. They just kept on firing as long as the target reticle kept turning red.

Yeah, had I stood still I would have expected that. But as soon as I saw I was under fire I moved backwards, at an angle (not just straight back) - and the weapon fire followed me. Then I moved forward and well off to the left side still under the thick trees... and the weapons continued to follow me (mostly hitting still). I literally had to back down and off the hill before the fire stopped - and when I did it was immediate. They didn't keep firing for a few seconds, see they hit nothing, then stop... as soon as I was out of the way the shots stopped coming in. That is what began to clue me in to the idea that they could actually, visibly see me... and got me thinking about the draw distance for trees and such.

[WardenWolf]

I just tried bumping to low settings to see if I could check out the situation just by looking, and sure enough - on the forest colony map you can see open hillsides where they should be thickly covered with trees. I took a screenshot and circled the areas, I was on the upper hill / ridge in my story above.

[Davers]

WardenWolf, on 24 April 2013 - 01:23 PM, said:

Yeah, had I stood still I would have expected that. But as soon as I saw I was under fire I moved backwards, at an angle (not just straight back) - and the weapon fire followed me. Then I moved forward and well off to the left side still under the thick trees... and the weapons continued to follow me (mostly hitting still). I literally had to back down and off the hill before the fire stopped - and when I did it was immediate. They didn't keep firing for a few seconds, see they hit nothing, then stop... as soon as I was out of the way the shots stopped coming in. That is what began to clue me in to the idea that they could actually, visibly see me... and got me thinking about the draw distance for trees and such.

Maybe the shots didn't immediately stop coming in, maybe they were missing you and you didn't see them? I don't know. I've shot at people I've had targeted, but couldn't see because there were trees in front only to discover I had been shooting the side of a hill or something. Guess hiding in trees works on me.

[WardenWolf]

Davers, on 24 April 2013 - 04:27 PM, said:

Maybe the shots didn't immediately stop coming in, maybe they were missing you and you didn't see them? I don't know. I've shot at people I've had targeted, but couldn't see because there were trees in front only to discover I had been shooting the side of a hill or something. Guess hiding in trees works on me.

I think it depends heavily on the graphics settings they use and how far away they are. Check out the screenshot I posted just above your comment - it shows how on Low settings you see bare hills instead of tree cover in the spot where I was in this story.

[Skadi]

Sorry I cant see your post because its not in General Discussion.

[The Black Knight]

WardenWolf, on 24 April 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

I just tried bumping to low settings to see if I could check out the situation just by looking, and sure enough - on the forest colony map you can see open hillsides where they should be thickly covered with trees. I took a screenshot and circled the areas, I was on the upper hill / ridge in my story above.

Wow this is horrifying. I've wondered how people could be such good snipers on this map. This has to be it. I've had similar problems to you before. I've standing on a hill in trees and cannot see the form of any opposing mechs and then all the sudden see a pair of PPCs stream towards me from trees across the map. I couldnt see them, but they could see me. I bet they had their setting low like this. PGI needs to put a stop to this!

Good catch WardenWolf

[WardenWolf]

the black knight, on 25 April 2013 - 08:55 AM, said:

Wow this is horrifying. I've wondered how people could be such good snipers on this map. This has to be it. I've had similar problems to you before. I've standing on a hill in trees and cannot see the form of any opposing mechs and then all the sudden see a pair of PPCs stream towards me from trees across the map. I couldnt see them, but they could see me. I bet they had their setting low like this. PGI needs to put a stop to this!

Good catch WardenWolf

Thanks

The situation is worse than I thought, though! I tried the same map again last night with quality settings cranked back up to maximum (the way I usually run it) and while there are more details in that area from a distance there are still no trees! So it isn't purely a quality issue, though that may have an effect, it is an overall draw distance issue!

I'm surprised I never noticed this before in all the months of closed and open beta, but I think it was because prior to the recent view mode changes everyone sniping would use thermal... and I just assumed that some bit of your thermal signature would show through foliage. Hopefully the Devs see my question in Ask the Devs 37 and address it, or at least look into the issue. If not, I'll submit a support ticket at some point with screenshots showing the view from both locations.

[Lagahan]

This needs to be fixed. I hate Forest Colony only for this reason, you can even spot mechs completely out of vision through trees, to have them show up on your teams HUD and be easy pickings. Didn't realize you could basically disable trees to have that effect WardenWolf is showing.

[Rauchsauger]

Ahahah I posted about this a while ago - on river city some and/or parts of structures are not rendered at a distance.
This does not help with the sniping because the structures will still block the shot but you can track movement you should not be able to see

Edited by Rauchsauger, 25 April 2013 - 01:42 PM.

[Asmosis]

WardenWolf, on 24 April 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

I just tried bumping to low settings to see if I could check out the situation just by looking, and sure enough - on the forest colony map you can see open hillsides where they should be thickly covered with trees. I took a screenshot and circled the areas, I was on the upper hill / ridge in my story above.

If you reduce draw distance though doesnt this also reduce the distance mechs get drawn at?

I've had plenty of times on that giant frozen map where even on 3.0 zoom there are gauss/ppc/ac2 rounds coming out of nowhere hitting me as i move. Even looking directly at where they come from (shooter isnt moving) I dont see a mech model until i move 300m or so closer.

Not that things do much of any damage at that range, but its annoying.

*edit*

my example would be the opposite of this topic then? that theres a way to increase settings beyond max as thats where i have everything set.

Edited by Asmosis, 25 April 2013 - 05:20 PM.

[HarmAssassin]

This happens in every multiplayer game. Some people down their graphics settings to gain this advantage (while others just have old PCs and can't run any setting higher than the lowest settings).

Unfortunately, it gives those with the lower settings an advantage (trees, shrubs, shadows are not drawn for them). Makes hiding impossible when the other player doesn't see the effect that you're hiding in.