129 replies to this topic

[Taemien]

Keifomofutu, on 26 April 2013 - 11:58 AM, said:

You realize you've turned the game into one of two options. Either a boring campfest or a bored pack of lights standing in a square.

I can't hold all of this fun!

How is that different before HSR? Just take the range from 800+ to under 270 and thats what it was before. Its just that missiles were effective back then and provided something interesting.

The community does this to themselves. They refuse to adapt and either complain, copy whats killing them, or both. They don't use any ingenuity. Seriously, lets prove this fact. What builds are you all currently using?

Go to http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab
Make your build
Click save and share
Paste it

[Rat of the Legion Vega]

12 v 12 will push PPCs/ERPPCs way over the edge into massively OP territory. Why? Ammunition. Ballistic and Missile mechs will have to increase their ammo loads to remain effective damage dealing platforms over the course of a long, big battle. But that comes at a cost of weight and space. PPC mechs don't have to change a thing - they just keep on shooting all match long. Six kills? 10 kills? The sky's the limit.

[One Medic Army]

Taemien, on 26 April 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

How is that different before HSR? Just take the range from 800+ to under 270 and thats what it was before. Its just that missiles were effective back then and provided something interesting.

The community does this to themselves. They refuse to adapt and either complain, copy whats killing them, or both. They don't use any ingenuity. Seriously, lets prove this fact. What builds are you all currently using?

Go to http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab
Make your build
Click save and share
Paste it

I will gladly share my horribly non-optimal builds. (Well, some are optimal)
Jenner-D
Jenner-F
Jenner-K
Raven-3L (I played this for 2 matches only, ever)
Cicada-3M
Hunch-G
Hunch-P
Hunch-SP
Cent-A
Cent-AL
Cent-D
Treb-3C
Treb-5J
Trem-7M
Dragon-1C
Dragon-1N
Dragon-Flame
Catapult-C1
Catapult-C4
Catapult-K2
Cataphract-2X
Cataphract-3D
Cataphract-4X
Stalker-5M (Also have a 3F and a 5S unused)
Highlander-733C
Highlander-733P
Highlander-Heavy Metal

These days I mainly use the Jenner-F, Jenner-D, and occasionally I'll play a highlander until I get tired of being sniped.
I'll pull out the Cicada-3M, Stalker 5M, or the Cataphract 4X if I'm playing seriously in an 8man.

[Helican]

Lightfoot, on 26 April 2013 - 08:00 AM, said:

It works though. Sounds strange, but shots at 700plus meters on even a slow assault moving laterally to the attacker are going to miss, spread, or do random damage. The exception is Missiles, they will hit. And I absolutely want LRMs to be buffed to stop me from doing my long range tricks. It's funny that so many players don't understand that moving laterally at long range causes weapon spread and frequently total misses.

Reason why is every weapon type travels at a different speed. If they are boating only one weapon type, like PPCs, they will shutdown alot and that is an easily killed mech. With a shutdown mech you aim for the cockpit. Dead mech, even an Atlas.

I don't want to go back to MWO medium laser brawl with 2xAC20 zombie mechs staggering around. MechWarrior is a map based tactical game. On some maps you can take a brawler and win, on others you will lose. That is perfect balance in MechWarrior.

I think the only problem with PPCs at present is that Mechs don't explode when players hit override and fire their boated PPC weapons. That critical failure/ damage explosion from over-heating is what controls energy boating. If it's not in the game (it's not at present) there is no control on energy boats. You will have to live with the 6xPPC Stalkers and figure out how to defeat them until some type of hard heat cap is added.

Don't nerf the PPC, nerf the ability to boat PPCs with a hard heat cap.

The PPC is perfectly balanced now and for the future. It's the mainstay weapon the Inner Sphere has vs the Clans. The only one that even comes close to the Clan equivilent version ERPPC.

For the record, I have never said I think the PPC should be nerfed. The PPC has always been my favorite BT weapon. That being said, its power, and that of all sniper builds, lie in convergence. Sniping should definitely be viable, but it shouldn't trump everything else.

[Taemien]

One Medic Army, on 26 April 2013 - 06:03 PM, said:

I will gladly share my horribly non-optimal builds. (Well, some are optimal)
....
....
These days I mainly use the Jenner-F, Jenner-D, and occasionally I'll play a highlander until I get tired of being sniped.
I'll pull out the Cicada-3M, Stalker 5M, or the Cataphract 4X if I'm playing seriously in an 8man.

I like those Highlander builds actually. Optimal is relative of course.

[One Medic Army]

Taemien, on 26 April 2013 - 07:56 PM, said:

I like those Highlander builds actually. Optimal is relative of course.

The 733C works surprisingly well.
AC/20+2x PPCs against anyone between about 400m-100m is very nasty, and much cooler than 4x PPC or 3x+gauss.

The 733P is just my attempt to not be another PPC user, my stats are decent (better than the 733C for some reason) but I really dislike it.

Edited by One Medic Army, 26 April 2013 - 08:49 PM.

[h00n]

Helican, on 24 April 2013 - 10:23 PM, said:

So, to counter snipers you need to build a sniper? Or are you referring to the glorified spitwads that are LRMs?

Use cover, take shots and use superior aim to make your shots count.

When you finally close, use weapons in both range brackets and decent heat dissipation to end your opponent.

Actually...

Pilot better.

Keifomofutu, on 24 April 2013 - 10:40 PM, said:

So trade shots with him at long range where he has the advantage? Trouble with having some long ranged weaponry is you'll be temped to use it when you shouldn't.

Stop making excuses for yourself and pilot better.

I mean I could spell it out for you...

Here let me repeat myself.

Build a mech that can hang in close range and long range.

If you build a mech to do one thing, you're going to get countered. It's a mental thing, it's your inability to THINK, not your mech. Not your opponent being a sniper.

More than 2 PPCs WILL overheat you even with DHS.

Use that to your advantage.

OMG this is basic stuff, I can't believe I even have to post it.

Edited by h00n, 26 April 2013 - 09:04 PM.

[Keifomofutu]

h00n, on 26 April 2013 - 09:00 PM, said:

Use cover, take shots and use superior aim to make your shots count.

When you finally close, use weapons in both range brackets and decent heat dissipation to end your opponent.

Actually...

Pilot better.




Stop making excuses for yourself and pilot better.

I mean I could spell it out for you...

Here let me repeat myself.

Build a mech that can hang in close range and long range.

If you build a mech to do one thing, you're going to get countered. It's a mental thing, it's your inability to THINK, not your mech. Not your opponent being a sniper.

More than 2 PPCs WILL overheat you even with DHS.

Use that to your advantage.

OMG this is basic stuff, I can't believe I even have to post it.

"Use Superior Aim". You're telling people to fight at a disadvantage and just assume that they are better shots than the enemy snipers while wielding less long range weapons. That is utterly terrible advice. ELO will put you against people who are equal shots to you. If you aren't built for long range don't try to half-*** a long range fight against them get close.

I'll just take my 1 gauss + 2 eRPPC 2SSRM Heavy Metal. Specifically long ranged but still 1.3 efficiency at close range. I tried to use the UAC5+Ac2+3LL build instead but trying to dps snipers just didn't work. They'd hit you and be back in cover before your LL finished its burn time.

Brawlers lost their best weapon and as a result they're barely better at point blank range than the snipers. And they're badly damaged when they get there. What do you think the most common result will be?

Edited by Keifomofutu, 26 April 2013 - 09:10 PM.

[h00n]

Keifomofutu, on 26 April 2013 - 09:10 PM, said:

"Use Superior Aim". You're telling people to fight at a disadvantage and just assume that they are better shots than the enemy snipers while wielding less long range weapons. That is utterly terrible advice. ELO will put you against people who are equal shots to you. If you aren't built for long range don't try to half-*** a long range fight against them get close.

I'll just take my 1 gauss + 2 eRPPC 2SSRM Heavy Metal. Specifically long ranged but still 1.3 efficiency at close range. I tried to use the UAC5+Ac2+3LL build instead but trying to dps snipers just didn't work. They'd hit you and be back in cover before your LL finished its burn time.

Brawlers lost their best weapon and as a result they're barely better at point blank range than the snipers. And they're badly damaged when they get there. What do you think the most common result will be?

Clearly you needed to use cover and close instead of trying to tank their fire.

Brotip: PPC boats can only shoot so many times before they overheat. Get him to miss.

[Yokaiko]

People have problems with PPCs because they are stupid.

[Denno]

Calling for a ppc nerf is just wrong, there was a time prebuff when NO-ONE used em, ever. Or even ERL.

To anyone who equates poppers with ppc being op: Aim better.

When I get owned by poppers it's because I either screwed up aiming or put myself in a position to play to their strengths. I think a patient, direct fire, ranged ground build with decent aim can beat the snot out of most poppers. If you can't hit em well enough, keep practising. I could'nt hit em for squat when the 3d first came out. Also, don't fight em on ridges unless you stay close to the bottom of the ridge. Fight em right or left of hills and buildings from range or use cover and brawl.

Edited by Denno, 27 April 2013 - 02:47 AM.

[Alienfreak]

Lightfoot, on 24 April 2013 - 07:52 PM, said:

At 270 meters, an AC20 and 5 MLAS is still far superior to any PPC config due to more damage, doesn't shutdown, no minimum range and it's much lighter. So there is no balance issue that I can see. At present MWO has a long range and close range game working together and that is what you want.

Remember when MWO was just AC20's and MLAS brawls? Weaken the PPC and that's what will return.

2 ER PPCS fire faster than an AC20. (3 seconds compared to 4)
2 ER PPCs produce 16 more heat than an AC20.
2 ER PPCs weight the same as an AC20 without any ammo.
2 ER PPCs do not take up 10 slots but 6. (not unmountable with arms, not unmountable in torso with XL reactor)
2 ER PPCs deal the damage a AC20 deals not from 1-270 meters but from 1-810 meters.
2 ER PPCs travel more than double the speed of an AC20 (900 m/s compared to 2000 m/s).


2 ER PPCs produce 6 more heat than 4 ML
2 ER PPCs are 10 tons heavier than 4 ML.
2 ER PPCs do not take up 4 energy slots but 2.
2 ER PPCs deal the damage of 4 ML not to 270 meters but to 810 meters.
2 ER PPCs deal their damage instantly not over 1 second (will likely spread it)
2 ER PPCs fore as fast as 4 ML.


So you might see that everywhere except the heat the 2 ER PPCs are by far superior to an AC20.
The only advantage of an AC20 is that it can be carried in twos by some mechs. On the downside many mechs can't realistically carry one at all.

Comparing it to the ML is a bit worse for the PPCs. If you are under 270 meters the ML will start to get an advantage. Over 270 meters the PPCs win.
The real problem of 4 ML is that you need 4 Energy slots! Not many mechs even have so many. And if they have they will seriously gimp their ability to do anything besides having 4 ML. The obvious way to go, if you have 4 Energy slots, is 2 ER PPCs 2 ML.

Or if you are a sniper, go 2 ER PPCs and 2-4 PPCs.

Edited by Alienfreak, 27 April 2013 - 02:56 AM.

[MrToaster]

Ser Barristan, on 26 April 2013 - 10:15 AM, said:

Could high ROF ballistic builds be used to provide suppression for the rest of the team? I've been on the receiving end of rapid volleys of AC shots and it certainly makes hitting anything difficult. I'd imagine some JM6s loaded with high ROF ballistics could suppress enemy snipers long enough for the rest of the team to get into a brawl with them. Granted the Jagers won't be hitting with the same fire power as the high alpha builds but if they could keep the boaters and pop tarts from hitting effectively then they would be worth their weight in CBills.

Has anyone had any luck with this? With the random team composition of pugs it probably isn't a consistent counter but I imagine it might work for a team.

I have just started down this road. Just bought myself all 3 Jagers. 1 has 6mgs for fun which actually does alot of damage and sounds fricking awesome. The JM6-A I fitted with 2 uac/5's which is great for suppression! Even if you don't manage a hit at long range it does 9 times out of 10 make people back up (it likes the alpine map). 6 tonnes of ammo as a minimum! And remember uac/5 is all about timing!

Not sure what to do with the JM6-s yet? need more c-bills!

[Sadistic Savior]

Gevurah, on 24 April 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

So what's the problem? Sure, it's a nuisance, but so were LRMs. And SRM boats. And Gauss cats. And AC20 jagers/cats. Learn and adapt, and all that.

I rarely die to PPCs...I do not understand what the big deal is about them either. I think I die more often to LRMs than PPCs.

I never use them myself either. All the situations I would use them in I'd rather use large pulse lasers or AC/20 or gauss anyway.

[Budor]

High pinpoint dmg, fast projectile speed, long range, no ammo cost and managable heat.

Sadistic Savior, on 03 May 2013 - 08:46 AM, said:

I rarely die to PPCs...I think I die more often to LRMs than PPCs.

ok...

Edited by Budor, 03 May 2013 - 09:10 AM.

[Sadistic Savior]

Budor, on 03 May 2013 - 09:09 AM, said:

High pinpoint dmg, fast projectile speed, long range, no ammo cost and managable heat.

When I used them the heat was high enough to be annoying. They are basically the best energy weapon for pinpoint damage, but like I said, I'd rather use gauss or AC/20 and do more damage with less heat. They are useful for sniping (when I get hit with them it is usually from sniping), but the damage does not seem all that great to me.

I do occasionally see PPC boats but I think the problem has been grossly exaggerated...they don't dominate the games I have seen them in.

[El Bandito]

Sadistic Savior, on 03 May 2013 - 10:06 AM, said:

When I used them the heat was high enough to be annoying. They are basically the best energy weapon for pinpoint damage, but like I said, I'd rather use gauss or AC/20 and do more damage with less heat. They are useful for sniping (when I get hit with them it is usually from sniping), but the damage does not seem all that great to me.

I do occasionally see PPC boats but I think the problem has been grossly exaggerated...they don't dominate the games I have seen them in.

Then you have been playing the wrong game. Aside from a couple of variants, noone can boat (if boating means take two) the said AC20 or Gauss. PPC/ERPPC on the other hand can be boated with ease.

I see plenty of Stalker and Highlanders cheesing them in every match.

Edited by El Bandito, 10 May 2013 - 11:36 PM.

[Terror Teddy]

Jonathan Paine, on 24 April 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

Again: devs need to fix alpha strikes so they do not deliver all damage to the same location.

Nope, the only thing we need - and apparently something that is in the works is a more punishing heatscale with permanent damage risk due to overheating.

HEAT is the equalizer.

[Edson Drake]

Quote

I think the only problem with PPCs at present is that Mechs don't explode when players hit override and fire their boated PPC weapons. That critical failure/ damage explosion from over-heating is what controls energy boating. If it's not in the game (it's not at present) there is no control on energy boats. You will have to live with the 6xPPC Stalkers and figure out how to defeat them until some type of hard heat cap is added.

Just to shime this in: you DO explode. I tested this and you explode just fine. It takes a bit more than what I'd consider "realistic" but it happens.

[skullman86]

Not so much trouble as it is an annoyance. All of the cheese I've seen over the past year or so is beatable, I just dislike it because it requires such little effort to be successful and I feel it goes against the spirit of the game. We have people who make builds to win and we have people who make builds that kind of resemble the original loadout or something that looks "believable". The people from the second group don't like seeing mechs that were designed for particular roles turned into Frankenstein monsters and then looking to PGI for an answer only to find out they don't give a ****.

I honestly expected a somewhat slower paced game (and it was for a while) with a lot of room for tactics and shootouts when I bought my founder's pack, but it seems like the game moves farther away from that with every major update, and it's upsetting. Players who hate the meta are not mad because the builds are unbeatable, they are mad because the direction the game is headed can be taken as a message from the devs: you can either continue fighting an uphill battle with your non-optimal style of play or you can join the masses and play FoTM.