253 replies to this topic

[Donas]

Dimento Graven, on 28 April 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

Lastly you seem to be trying to imply that the macro makes no difference, and my response to that is, if it makes no difference, WHY USE IT?

You can't do it and maintain the same accuracy or piloting ability without it. Hense it provides a non-generally available tactical advantage and is therefore cheating.

A quick answer to your question with some extrapolation, and please not that I do so dispassionately, as I'm not interested in provoking you, but pointing out a nuance to this entire argument that you may have missed.

First, as to "Why use it?". Because it looks and sounds cool. Thats all. If we stop and analyze what is actually happening with AC2's in particular it should become apparent. The machine gun macro for AC2's is nothing more than a visual and auditory modification of link-firing 6 AC2's in one weapon group. All the macro does is offset the timing of them by .05 seconds so that it looks and sounds cooler. The pinpoint accuracy is exactly the same in macro fire as it is in link-group fire. As is the damage, heat accumulation, and ROF. the individual AC2's are not firing any faster than they are capable of in link-fire mode. Additionally, with the AC2's there are a few inherent disadvantages to macro-firing them, since they cycle every half second your pinpoint accuracy actually decreases as they start to function like a slow ticking laser (ie. you have to track better and more consistantly to keep your DPS equal to firing them normally in linked-group mode). As a further disadvantage over firing them in normal group-linked mode, when macro-firing since they only fire one at a time (albeit in rapid succession) if you release the fire button on anything other than the #6 AC2, the rest do not fire and you lose what would have been the damage for that volley(2-10 damage) since the volley quit firing before all of them had a chance to fire.

The only advantage that Macro-firing AC2's has is looking and sounding cool. That really is it. Its a cooler looking and sounding group-linked fire.

If other macros on other weapon systems actually do offer an advantage, than they are a problem. But the AC2 macro specifically is purely cosmetic, even though its so effective at being cooler looking and sounding that its drawn new attention to the debate of "macro or not". If macros are to eventually found to offer unfair advantages in MW:O the AC2 macro can not objectively be used as evidence, since it does not apply.

[Nathan Foxbane]

Dimento Graven, on 28 April 2013 - 04:12 PM, said:

Again, you're showing your lack of reading comprehension. The use of macros is limited by PGI's own rules. The affect the macros should have are also limited by PGI's own rules.

This particular macro, when created and maintained by non-3rd party hardware vendors, and due to its blatant tactical advantage of allowing rapid fire AC's without affects on aim or piloting, EXCEEDS the stated limitations in PGI's own rules.

It's not MY reality it's PGI's.

Dev answers are rarely comprehensive on these forums. They are also often given to answer specific questions. In this case the question from the ATD the quote you reference was specifically about third party hardware. The forumite never asked about software other than what came with their hardware and accordingly no answer was given about software other than what was bundled with the hardware. You are taking a rather specific question with an equally specific answer out of context and trying to force an answer on a question that was not asked. Be that to suit your belief or your error leading to that belief is immaterial at this juncture. Please refrain from shooting yourself in the foot with your citations, it is poor form.

As stated by others firing macro is hardly tactical assistance. Tactical assistance would be assistance that would provide you with information that enables you to make decisions about tactics that you employ that is unavailable through normal, permitted means. If you had something that told you where the other team was at all times, even when no one on your team has line of sight, that would be tactical assistance. If you had something that told you the exact model and load-out of 'Mechs on the the other team faster than could be ascertained by normal in-game means, that would be tactical assistance. If you had something that allowed you to see through terrain obstructions, that would be tactical assistance. If someone on the other team tells you where 'Mechs on their team are that you cannot see, that is tactical assistance. Being able to press a button so that your weapons fire as fast as the game allows is not tactical assistance, it is optimization of allowed assets by that player. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Dimento Graven]

Syllogy, on 28 April 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

It doesn't assist aiming. The fact that it does not disrupt it is irrelevant. I can do the same thing manually without disrupting aim.

You have 3 hands or something? You have nuetronium mouse that won't move when you rapidly click multiple buttons placed about the mouse and try and keep moving the mouse to maintain aim, while doing all those rapid clickings?

Again, I call BS, you're lying.

Quote

I have that macro programmed into Logitech and Razer Synapse. Both of these are 3rd party hardware vendors. Neither program is considered cheating.

In that case no the 3rd party hardware vendor programs are not cheating in of themselves, however, it's what you do with them that crosses over into cheating.

Quote

Let me highlight that again:

Tactical Assistance is the keyword that you are focusing on. Use that reading comprehension to good effect here:

PGI is talking about software that modifies the game itself to give tactical assistance to the user.

Sorry, but macros don't do that. Aimbots, Wallhacks, ESP, Magic Crosshairs, these all give the user Tactical Assistance.

Pressing buttons is not Tactical Assistance.

What you are talking about is on par with saying that I'm not allowed to use my Razer Naga because it has buttons on the side, or I'm not allowed to use my monitor because it's a 30 inch and I can see small targets better.

Yes, LET US USE READING COMPREHENSION here, and COMPREHENSION also means NOT ADDING things that aren't there. You just tried to add a limitation that wasn't there namely the "...software that modifies the game itself..." I don't see that limitation anywhere in PGI's response on that question, so that tells me that PGI doesn't want any unfair tactical advantage being given whether their code is modified or not.

The fact that you all are so fervently defending this let's me know that you've tried to do this without the macro and found the same problems that everyone else does. Clicking multiple buttons in rapid succession on a mouse and attempting to maintain pin point accuracy is damn near impossible and pressing multiple keys in rapid succession on a keyboard and being able to effectively pilot is damn near impossible, unless you're one of those fortunate few have been born with 3 arms...

[Syllogy]

Dimento Graven, on 28 April 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

You have 3 hands or something? You have nuetronium mouse that won't move when you rapidly click multiple buttons placed about the mouse and try and keep moving the mouse to maintain aim, while doing all those rapid clickings?

Again, I call BS, you're lying.

In that case no the 3rd party hardware vendor programs are not cheating in of themselves, however, it's what you do with them that crosses over into cheating.


Yes, LET US USE READING COMPREHENSION here, and COMPREHENSION also means NOT ADDING things that aren't there. You just tried to add a limitation that wasn't there namely the "...software that modifies the game itself..." I don't see that limitation anywhere in PGI's response on that question, so that tells me that PGI doesn't want any unfair tactical advantage being given whether their code is modified or not.

The fact that you all are so fervently defending this let's me know that you've tried to do this without the macro and found the same problems that everyone else does. Clicking multiple buttons in rapid succession on a mouse and attempting to maintain pin point accuracy is damn near impossible and pressing multiple keys in rapid succession on a keyboard and being able to effectively pilot is damn near impossible, unless you're one of those fortunate few have been born with 3 arms...

ROFLMAO.

You use your left hand to tap the Weapon Group keys on the keyboard, genius. No mouse buttons involved.

Also, Paul Inouye, Bryan Buckton, and Garth Erlam have all said many times during the NGNG twitch streams that, specifically the macros being used to make rapid-fire Jagers, are perfectly legal.

Edited by Syllogy, 28 April 2013 - 04:43 PM.

[Inconspicuous]

Dimento Graven, on 28 April 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

You have 3 hands or something? You have nuetronium mouse that won't move when you rapidly click multiple buttons placed about the mouse and try and keep moving the mouse to maintain aim, while doing all those rapid clickings?

Again your blatant lie about the multiple mouse clicks... It only requires one mouse click (well, hold actually).

If you have to make **** up and lie to make your point, perhaps you should re-examine your position on the issue.

[Dimento Graven]

Syllogy, on 28 April 2013 - 04:30 PM, said:

ROFLMAO.

You use your left hand to tap the Weapon Group keys on the keyboard, genius. No mouse buttons involved.

And while you're tapping those 4 to 6 buttons in rapid succession, do you use your THIRD HAND to maintain WASD and pilot your mech while you're doing this? Or do you take your hand off the mouse, but of course that affects your ability to maintain your aim on your target so you're not doing that.

So, it MUST be the third hand being used...

[Syllogy]

Dimento Graven, on 28 April 2013 - 04:43 PM, said:

And while you're tapping those 4 to 6 buttons in rapid succession, do you use your THIRD HAND to maintain WASD and pilot your mech while you're doing this? Or do you take your hand off the mouse, but of course that affects your ability to maintain your aim on your target so you're not doing that.

So, it MUST be the third hand being used...

Why do I need to hit WSAD in order to control my mech when I fire? My crosshair is controlled by my mouse, my firing is done by my keyboard.

Incase you didn't notice, 1234 are right above those keys. Any halfway intelligent player should be able to swap between those.

This ain't Call of Derpy, having twitch-reflex shoot-n-move skills aren't necessary to be successful.

Edited by Syllogy, 28 April 2013 - 04:46 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

Donas, on 28 April 2013 - 04:39 PM, said:

A quick answer to your question with some extrapolation, and please not that I do so dispassionately, as I'm not interested in provoking you, but pointing out a nuance to this entire argument that you may have missed.

First, as to "Why use it?". Because it looks and sounds cool. Thats all. If we stop and analyze what is actually happening with AC2's in particular it should become apparent. The machine gun macro for AC2's is nothing more than a visual and auditory modification of link-firing 6 AC2's in one weapon group. All the macro does is offset the timing of them by .05 seconds so that it looks and sounds cooler. The pinpoint accuracy is exactly the same in macro fire as it is in link-group fire. As is the damage, heat accumulation, and ROF. the individual AC2's are not firing any faster than they are capable of in link-fire mode. Additionally, with the AC2's there are a few inherent disadvantages to macro-firing them, since they cycle every half second your pinpoint accuracy actually decreases as they start to function like a slow ticking laser (ie. you have to track better and more consistantly to keep your DPS equal to firing them normally in linked-group mode). As a further disadvantage over firing them in normal group-linked mode, when macro-firing since they only fire one at a time (albeit in rapid succession) if you release the fire button on anything other than the #6 AC2, the rest do not fire and you lose what would have been the damage for that volley(2-10 damage) since the volley quit firing before all of them had a chance to fire.

The only advantage that Macro-firing AC2's has is looking and sounding cool. That really is it. Its a cooler looking and sounding group-linked fire.

If other macros on other weapon systems actually do offer an advantage, than they are a problem. But the AC2 macro specifically is purely cosmetic, even though its so effective at being cooler looking and sounding that its drawn new attention to the debate of "macro or not". If macros are to eventually found to offer unfair advantages in MW:O the AC2 macro can not objectively be used as evidence, since it does not apply.

Again, I call into question the level of BS on this..

You use the macro because it "sounds cool"?!?!!?!?!?!!?!?

Seriously?

Perhaps the DPS isn't changed by the macro, that's arguable as the macro allows you to deliver more rounds to target accurately as you're not having to suffer the interfering affects of attempting to move mouse and rapid fire click multiple buttons. The overall DPS may not change but what is actually delivered to target IS changed.

Also, this ignores the ancilliary affects of AC/2 on the target, namely a near constant rate of cockpit shake and for rounds hitting the forward torso of the 'mech the constant impact flashes that go with it. With the macro there's ZERO disappation of the affect. With the natural chain fire rate there's potentially upwards of a half-second between each impact. That's a significant affect there.

The "cause it's cool" response it rediculous.

[Dimento Graven]

Inconspicuous, on 28 April 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

You just make **** up and argue that...

The instructions include holding one mouse button yet you turn that into "maintain clicking multiple mouse buttons located all in different spots on their mouse at the 'correct rate' consistantly without causing movement of the aim".

Feel free to continue your crusade, I think everyone here knows who is full of crap and who is not...

Ok so how do you activate multiple weapon groups rapidly, sequentially, and specifically MANUALLY on your mouse?

On mine, the only way I can do it without a macro is to assign each weapon group a mouse button and click them rapidly, one at a time.

Same thing on my keyboard, to rapidly and sequentially press multiple weapon group buttons, MANUALLY, I have to move my fingers from WASD to 1,2,3,4,5,6...

Again, how are YOU doing it manually?

Edited by Dimento Graven, 28 April 2013 - 04:59 PM.

[Syllogy]

Dimento Graven, on 28 April 2013 - 04:54 PM, said:

Ok so how do you activate multiple weapon groups rapidly, sequentially, and specifically MANUALLY on your mouse?

On mine, the only I can do it without a macro is to assign each weapon group a mouse button and click them rapidly, one at a time.

Samething on my keyboard, to rapidly and sequentially press multiple weapon group buttons, MANUALLY, I have to move my fingers from WASD to 1,2,3,4,5,6...

Again, how are YOU doing it manually?

Probably by not being a derp and not using WSAD to aim.

Can you count to Potato?

Edited by Syllogy, 28 April 2013 - 04:58 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

Syllogy, on 28 April 2013 - 04:45 PM, said:

Why do I need to hit WSAD in order to control my mech when I fire? My crosshair is controlled by my mouse, my firing is done by my keyboard.

Incase you didn't notice, 1234 are right above those keys. Any halfway intelligent player should be able to swap between those.

This ain't Call of Derpy, having twitch-reflex shoot-n-move skills aren't necessary to be successful.

Then how do you control your 'mechs FEET direction, speed, target (you gotta press R for that), etc., while you're rapidly sequentially pressing 1,2,3,4,5,6, or are you saying that you completely stop your mech and do zero piloting while you're doing this manually?

Me thinks the reality is, you USED to do that but the results were you died, quickly as a stationary mech is typically very shortly a dead one.

[Syllogy]

Dimento Graven, on 28 April 2013 - 04:58 PM, said:

Then how do you control your 'mechs FEET direction, speed, target (you gotta press R for that), etc., while you're rapidly sequentially pressing 1,2,3,4,5,6, or are you saying that you completely stop your mech and do zero piloting while you're doing this manually?

Me thinks the reality is, you USED to do that but the results were you died, quickly as a stationary mech is typically very shortly a dead one.

Since I don't use decaying throttle, my mech keeps moving. I don't hit R because my target is already selected. If i need to turn my legs, I stop firing.

Can you count to potato?

Edited by Syllogy, 28 April 2013 - 05:00 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

Syllogy, on 28 April 2013 - 04:57 PM, said:

Probably by not being a derp and not using WSAD to aim.

Can you count to Potato?

Wow, how intentionally obtuse.

You make it sounds like no one here PILOTS their mech with their keyboard while at the same time, AIMING their weapons with their mouse.

I use the mouse to aim. I use the keyboard to pilot. If I take my piloting hand off the WASD keys to fire weapons, I can no longer pilot, UNLESS, I have a third hand.

[Syllogy]

Dimento Graven, on 28 April 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

Wow, how intentionally obtuse.

You make it sounds like no one here PILOTS their mech with their keyboard while at the same time, AIMING their weapons with their mouse.

I use the mouse to aim. I use the keyboard to pilot. If I take my piloting hand off the WASD keys to fire weapons, I can no longer pilot, UNLESS, I have a third hand.

You didn't answer my question: Can you count to Potato?

[Dimento Graven]

Syllogy, on 28 April 2013 - 05:00 PM, said:

Since I don't use decaying throttle, my mech keeps moving. I don't hit R because my target is already selected. If i need to turn my legs, I stop firing.

Can you count to potato?

Ahhhh, but with a macro, you don't NEED to stop firing to turn, AND THAT IS THE TACTICAL ADVANTAGE THAT IS NOT GENERALLY AVAILABLE TO EVERYONE ELSE WHO DOES NOT HAVE 3RD PARTY HARDWARE WITH MACRO CAPABILITIES.

[Syllogy]

Dimento Graven, on 28 April 2013 - 05:02 PM, said:

Ahhhh, but with a macro, you don't NEED to stop firing to turn, AND THAT IS THE TACTICAL ADVANTAGE THAT IS NOT GENERALLY AVAILABLE TO EVERYONE ELSE WHO DOES NOT HAVE 3RD PARTY HARDWARE WITH MACRO CAPABILITIES.

Can you count to Potato?

[Dimento Graven]

Syllogy, on 28 April 2013 - 05:02 PM, said:

You didn't answer my question: Can you count to Potato?

Ahh yes, you made me drag out the explanation to such a point that you can no longer feign ignorance to the point I was driving at, or counter it.

All you're left with is attempts at baiting me. I'm sure you're a master baiter, but the point is, the macro allows you to do something that unless you have three hands, you can't do manually.

[Syllogy]

I can think of a lot of people that can count to potato.

... Can you?

Fippy Darkpaw can count to potato.

Edited by Syllogy, 28 April 2013 - 05:10 PM.

[Inconspicuous]

Dimento Graven, on 28 April 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

Wow, how intentionally obtuse.

You make it sounds like no one here PILOTS their mech with their keyboard while at the same time, AIMING their weapons with their mouse.

I use the mouse to aim. I use the keyboard to pilot. If I take my piloting hand off the WASD keys to fire weapons, I can no longer pilot, UNLESS, I have a third hand.

For like 1/2 second while you fan the keys and then go back to piloting with WASD and holding 'fire selected' (probably MB1). Same thing happens when people who don't remap their keys go hunting for 'h' or 'n'.

[Dimento Graven]

Syllogy, on 28 April 2013 - 05:05 PM, said:

I can think of a lot of people that can count to potato.

... Can you?

Fippy Darkpaw can count to potato.

You gain points for EQ reference...

You lose points for continued attempts at baiting me. I being to question your mastery of baiting.

Inconspicuous, on 28 April 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

For like 1/2 second while you fan the keys and then go back to piloting with WASD and holding 'fire selected' (probably MB1). Same thing happens when people who don't remap their keys go hunting for 'h' or 'n'.

But in that half second you stop firing.

The macro allows you to do this without stopping, ever.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 28 April 2013 - 05:22 PM.