253 replies to this topic

[Panzerman03]

Legolaas, on 25 April 2013 - 06:37 AM, said:

They are increasing their rate of fire so they receive a huge advantage from dat macro.

Here's where you and every other uninformed QQer on this topic are wrong: IT DOES NOT INCREASE RATE OF FIRE.

It actually decreases it when you compare it to just sticking them all in one group and holding down the fire key.

[Coolant]

I only think it is cheating if it allows you to do something not humanly possible otherwise or the game doesn't allow you to do it any other way. I have heard that if you group the AC2's a certain way you can achieve the same result, so the macro in this case would be legit...

[ArmageddonKnight]

'sigh' ..another thread like this.. you would think people would read the ones already being activly talked in.

The AC2 chainfire macro DOES NOT INCREASE AC2 ROF.

All it does is stagger the individual ac2's to fire one after the other in rapid succession each on its own 0.5sec cooldown timer. Infact to make sure said macro works, u have to fire them so there total cooldown is more like a 0.68 sec cooldown from when the 1st ac2 shotos to when it shoots again, otherwise client to server lag can cause the macro to miss a shot. So overall u r actuall sacrificing dmg to rapid fire them.

ontop of that boating AC2's is totaly inefficient, u turn urself into a walking ammo crate, u over heat within seconds, and cant really go toe to toe with any alpha builds.

The Ac2 macro is just for fun so people can go Dakka Dakka Dakka.

So people please. .for the lvoe of everything ..stop b*tching about the Ac2 macro >.<

Edited by ArmageddonKnight, 25 April 2013 - 11:25 AM.

[ArmageddonKnight]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 25 April 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

In WoW, for hunters at one point, there were ways to macro your shots with pauses to do more DPS than someone who manually did it. It became a requirement for raiding hunters to use that macro.

It really takes a portion of skill out from the game.

I actually played WoW way back in vannilla and tbc, those macro's u r on about could actually be beat by players doing it manualy becouse said macro's could not adapt to the very slight skill queing that was present, aswell as adapt to chaning circumstances.
I frequently out DPS people using way better gear who used macro's. Now im not syaing i was 'elite' or anything (the game was easy to control afterall, being 'elite' in that game wasnt saying much), just saying that macro's in games like that r imo, a cruch for those who cant even reach the dps lvl of macro's which in themselves can be beat by those who put in a little practice.

The 'requirment part' was a PITA for me, as i had to prove i could match peoples DPS before guilds would let me in their raids becouse i out right said, i dont use macro's.

Obviosly MWO isnt a MMORPG so macro's in this case are alot different. So although ur point is valid it doesnt really matter much in MWO's case. Macro's for rapid fire are very very simple and dont ive u an advanatge, infact asi explained above, it puts u at a disadvantage (DPS wise) due to timings.

Edited by ArmageddonKnight, 25 April 2013 - 11:43 AM.

[TOGSolid]

ArmageddonKnight, on 25 April 2013 - 11:22 AM, said:

'sigh' ..another thread like this.. you would think people would read the ones already being activly talked in.

The AC2 chainfire macro DOES NOT INCREASE AC2 ROF.

All it does is stagger the individual ac2's to fire one after the other in rapid succession each on its own 0.5sec cooldown timer. Infact to make sure said macro works, u have to fire them so there total cooldown is more like a 0.68 sec cooldown from when the 1st ac2 shotos to when it shoots again, otherwise client to server lag can cause the macro to miss a shot. So overall u r actuall sacrificing dmg to rapid fire them.

ontop of that boating AC2's is totaly inefficient, u turn urself into a walking ammo crate, u over heat within seconds, and cant really go toe to toe with any alpha builds.

The Ac2 macro is just for fun so people can go Dakka Dakka Dakka.

So people please. .for the lvoe of everything ..stop b*tching about the Ac2 macro >.<

It really is a non-issue, especially you don't even need a macro to do it. I do the stagger fire effect just as well because my four weapon groups are all bound to mouse buttons. It's took a few volleys to get the timing down and now I can do it by hand. Even without a mouse anyone can do it just by piano rolling their fingers along the 1, 2, 3, and 4 keys (or whatever your AC/2 groups are set to). Tadaa, you're now stagger firing all the groups and scaring the **** out of people.

The AC/2 macro is not cheating. It doesn't increase your DPS artificially (you can get the same DPS by just link firing your AC/2s) and it doesn't let you do anything you can't do normally. All it is is a derpy thing people do to scare the **** out of everyone else and because it sounds cool. That's it.

Edited by TOGSolid, 25 April 2013 - 11:50 AM.

[KuruptU4Fun]

What seems to be the underlying concern about how macros are used is more about the timing of multiples of the same weapon on a mech. Which realistically can be reproduced with a music timer set to beep at the moment of the reload of that weapon. So if a macro were built to perfectly time different weapons to shoot at the same time that have different reload speeds then I would understand your concern. But again, this same result using a beat timer can be used to create the same effect.

[TOGSolid]

KuruptU4Fun, on 25 April 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

What seems to be the underlying concern about how macros are used is more about the timing of multiples of the same weapon on a mech. Which realistically can be reproduced with a music timer set to beep at the moment of the reload of that weapon. So if a macro were built to perfectly time different weapons to shoot at the same time that have different reload speeds then I would understand your concern. But again, this same result using a beat timer can be used to create the same effect.

http://www.metronomeonline.com/
Set the metronome to 54 bpm.

There, now we're all dirty UAC/5 macroing bad people.

[Roadbeer]

Mister Blastman, on 25 April 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

Explanation.

Fair enough, great idea, I'm behind this. But short of that, I don't see macro's as a problem.

[Mackman]

Mister Blastman, on 25 April 2013 - 09:30 AM, said:

Macros are a crutch, though.
...
Macros on the other hand take the place of the human brain, making decisions for the player and actions for them in their place. It takes a processing load off the mind so the player can focus on other things (or less things). They're a crutch and a cheat. There's a huge difference between them and hardware upgrades.

Think of it this way--A macro is like giving a tennis player a racket that automatically extends the arm when needed to hit a ball or deflect it in such a way to allow them to make a shot they might have messed up otherwise. Fancy keyboards (provided you don't use macros) and mice don't do this for you. The onus is still on the operator to make them perform.

There's little to no effort required for the player once they make the macro. The macro takes care of the rest.

Macros are a pathetic crutch.

Macro's make no decisions for the player. Macro's can only do pre-determined actions, based on player input. And anyway, how do you reconcile "Macro's are a pathetic crutch" with...

Mister Blastman, on 25 April 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

Now, lets take AC/2 chaining--it is very amusing to say the least. I'm fine with it. However, the problem with MWO that causes people to use macros is the chain fire system. Now wait--the macros allow infinite fire, maximum dakka. That's great! Fun stuff, right?

Why can't chain fire do this? Why can't MWO have a chain fire system that looks at the weapon group and says... hey, look, they want to chain fire. Hmm... Well, they want to chain-fire nonstop. So have a toggle switch for chain fire--the toggle allows you to go from standard chain-fire to perpetual chain-fire. Perpetual chain-fire has one difference. The game would take the weapon group, figure out via maths (not hard to program) the optimal firing sequence to allow the weapons to fire nonstop using their cooldown/firetime numbers and fire them in sequence at that interval via code.

Viola! No more macros needed. Everyone has the same edge. They can choose between maximum firing via chain fire or nonstop firing via alternate chain firing.

That's just one of many ideas I could come up with and they aren't hard to implement, either. Well, as long as you assume the programmer is competent at their job--it is a single day addition to the code or less since it is engine/mechanics code.

Isn't this chain-fire system a "pathetic crutch", according to you? All you're advocating for here is for this macro to actually become a core part of the game: Which I agree with entirely. What I find absolutely hilarious is that you're apparently in favor of inputting "a pathetic crutch" into MWO... unless you're just being hilariously self-defeating.

[TOGSolid]

Quote

Macro's make no decisions for the player. Macro's can only do pre-determined actions, based on player input.

Pfft, shows what you know about macros. My macros made me breakfast in bed this morning and got my clothes ready for me all on their own.

[TruePoindexter]

Voridan Atreides, on 25 April 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:

I'm with ya. Don't really see a point in it I guess.

You don't really need a gaming keyboard. The extra buttons I've found to be irrelevant. Now a nice mechanical keyboard is wonderful. True N-Key rollover is handy too. I use this one and it's a huge improvement over rubber dome keyboards and not that expensive: http://www.newegg.co...VirtualParent=1

A gaming mouse on the other hand is nice. I use a 1st generation Razer Deathadder which has to be the most comfortable mouse I've ever used. I recently took it to work to replace my work mouse and at home I'm now using a Logitech G500 which is pretty nice.

All of these are "nice to haves." If you're a touch typist or just at a computer a lot having quality input devices makes a huge difference to your comfort. If you don't care or are cheap though then you can get by with the cheap stuff.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Jman5, on 25 April 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

There is no stopping people from using macros. Even if they forbid it, people could get away with it.

Instead of banning them, or leaving things as is, PGI should be working to tweak their system whereby macros are obsolete and unnecessary. Otherwise you create a tier-skill system where in order to compete you have to use a macro function.

This is more what I'm getting at. Fix the game so using a macro doesn't do anything.

If the AC/2 macro doesn't do anything, then why use it? It must give some sort of advantage for people to use it.

ArmageddonKnight, on 25 April 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

I actually played WoW way back in vannilla and tbc, those macro's u r on about could actually be beat by players doing it manualy becouse said macro's could not adapt to the very slight skill queing that was present, aswell as adapt to chaning circumstances.
I frequently out DPS people using way better gear who used macro's. Now im not syaing i was 'elite' or anything (the game was easy to control afterall, being 'elite' in that game wasnt saying much), just saying that macro's in games like that r imo, a cruch for those who cant even reach the dps lvl of macro's which in themselves can be beat by those who put in a little practice.

The 'requirment part' was a PITA for me, as i had to prove i could match peoples DPS before guilds would let me in their raids becouse i out right said, i dont use macro's.

Obviosly MWO isnt a MMORPG so macro's in this case are alot different. So although ur point is valid it doesnt really matter much in MWO's case. Macro's for rapid fire are very very simple and dont ive u an advanatge, infact asi explained above, it puts u at a disadvantage (DPS wise) due to timings.

It was VERY hard to beat out the macro. I'd done it...but it basically meant I couldn't do anything else. What using the macro did was basically the same DPS, plus keep better track of AE effects (lessening the healing needed, and giving your healers more resources) and as a raid leader it afforded me the ability to watch the overall battle.

The same happens in MW:O. By using a macro, you are freeing up brain power to bark out orders or warnings, as well as upping your situational awareness. And please don't tell me you can do things exactly the same without a macro. The human brain just doesn't work that way.

[TOGSolid]

Quote

If the AC/2 macro doesn't do anything, then why use it? It must give some sort of advantage for people to use it.

It doesn't, that's the big joke to all of this. Doing it is actually really inefficient. Link fire is much friendlier on the heat control, allows you to focus your AC/2 fire in one spot more reliably, and thusly ends up saving you ammo all while doing identical DPS.

Literally the only reason to use the macro or do it manually with a multi-button mouse is because glorious dakka. That's it. It's something people only do for fun. Yes, it sounds scary, yes it's a little offputting to get whacked by that many AC/2 shots in succession but they get no DPS advantage from it and are losing killing ability due to the shots getting spread out. It's pure intimidation and a lot of fun to play with.

Quote

And please don't tell me you can do things exactly the same without a macro. The human brain just doesn't work that way.

There is a HUGE difference between the only two real macros in MWO and all of the wacky **** you can do with them in an RTS or MMO. In those games they really are massive shortcuts that let you run commands much faster than you normally could. Here the AC/2 one is easily replicated by hand with little to no thought and the UAC/5 one can be replicated just by practicing or running a metronome.

Your outrage over MWO macros is completely unfounded because they just don't do anything game breaking here.

Edited by TOGSolid, 25 April 2013 - 02:39 PM.

[TruePoindexter]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 25 April 2013 - 02:30 PM, said:

It was VERY hard to beat out the macro. I'd done it...but it basically meant I couldn't do anything else. What using the macro did was basically the same DPS, plus keep better track of AE effects (lessening the healing needed, and giving your healers more resources) and as a raid leader it afforded me the ability to watch the overall battle.

The same happens in MW:O. By using a macro, you are freeing up brain power to bark out orders or warnings, as well as upping your situational awareness. And please don't tell me you can do things exactly the same without a macro. The human brain just doesn't work that way.

Err.... the macros we're talking about just save you keystrokes and therefore time - that's all. It's a pre-recorded set of actions that you can replay. They don't make choices for you on how to play.

Don't confuse these for the macros you might find in a game like WoW which are small scripts that can be designed to make decisions based on the situation.

[silentD11]

TruePoindexter, on 25 April 2013 - 02:25 PM, said:

You don't really need a gaming keyboard. The extra buttons I've found to be irrelevant. Now a nice mechanical keyboard is wonderful. True N-Key rollover is handy too. I use this one and it's a huge improvement over rubber dome keyboards and not that expensive: http://www.newegg.co...VirtualParent=1

A gaming mouse on the other hand is nice. I use a 1st generation Razer Deathadder which has to be the most comfortable mouse I've ever used. I recently took it to work to replace my work mouse and at home I'm now using a Logitech G500 which is pretty nice.

All of these are "nice to haves." If you're a touch typist or just at a computer a lot having quality input devices makes a huge difference to your comfort. If you don't care or are cheap though then you can get by with the cheap stuff.

Deathadder 2013 and Blackwidow Ultimate here on the main PC. I actually like the cherry blues on it, I know others hate the but oh well. I can't stand non mechanical keyboards and I actually use the macro functions for work stuff as well. As for mice, I've found that my hands work best with the deathadder or Logitech g400 styles, can't stand anything else.

[Roadbeer]

See, that's the problem, if you read the OP, he isn't clear about what a 'macro' means in this game, so he comes on here to start this poll.
Unfortunately since he isn't informed, he can't give the mechanics behind it to explain to those who also don't know what it is, how it works. feeding the cycle of the assumption that this is somehow cheating.

[TOGSolid]

silentD11, on 25 April 2013 - 02:55 PM, said:

Deathadder 2013 and Blackwidow Ultimate here on the main PC. I actually like the cherry blues on it, I know others hate the but oh well. I can't stand non mechanical keyboards and I actually use the macro functions for work stuff as well. As for mice, I've found that my hands work best with the deathadder or Logitech g400 styles, can't stand anything else.

*Mechanical keyboard high five* I run a Das Keyboard with Browns in it so that I don't drive everyone else up a wall over Skype. A quality mechanical is worth every penny. I'm kinda leery of Razer products these days though.

Roadbeer, on 25 April 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

See, that's the problem, if you read the OP, he isn't clear about what a 'macro' means in this game, so he comes on here to start this poll.
Unfortunately since he isn't informed, he can't give the mechanics behind it to explain to those who also don't know what it is, how it works. feeding the cycle of the assumption that this is somehow cheating.

It's also just the mistaken belief that this macro is giving the AC/2 wielders super powers when the reality is just that people aren't used to hearing AC/2s work that way due to chain fire capping that weapon's true single fire DPS. It's a cheesy gimmick designed to intimidate people and judging by the rash of "WTF AC/2" threads lately, I'd say it's doing its job damn well.

Edited by TOGSolid, 25 April 2013 - 03:05 PM.

[TruePoindexter]

TOGSolid, on 25 April 2013 - 03:04 PM, said:

*Mechanical keyboard high five* I run a Das Keyboard with Browns in it so that I don't drive everyone else up a wall over Skype. A quality mechanical is worth every penny. I'm kinda leery of Razer products these days though.

Cherry MX Blues in mine. It annoys everyone in the house but you know what - I'm paying for the house. They can live with it.

[TOGSolid]

TruePoindexter, on 25 April 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

Cherry MX Blues in mine. It annoys everyone in the house but you know what - I'm paying for the house. They can live with it.

I was living on my own when I had my old Unicomp Model M but the issue was just that I spend a lot of time on comms and the constant CLAKCLAKCLAKCLAKCLAK was driving everyone up a ******** wall. I got kicked out of a couple calls because of that damn thing, lol.

[silentD11]

TOGSolid, on 25 April 2013 - 03:04 PM, said:

*Mechanical keyboard high five* I run a Das Keyboard with Browns in it so that I don't drive everyone else up a wall over Skype. A quality mechanical is worth every penny. I'm kinda leery of Razer products these days though.

It's also just the mistaken belief that this macro is giving the AC/2 wielders super powers when the reality is just that people aren't used to hearing AC/2s work that way due to chain fire capping that weapon's true single fire DPS. It's a cheesy gimmick designed to intimidate people and judging by the rash of "WTF AC/2" threads lately, I'd say it's doing its job damn well.

I've got a DAS and a g400 mouse on the other computer. I know Razer products are hit or miss, and when it's a miss it's bad. But I honestly can't say anything bad about this keyboard and mouse. Plus I like having to deal with only one driver suite/gaming functionality suite.