Jump to content

Hardpoint Sizes


210 replies to this topic

Poll: Do you support the concept of HardPoint Sizes (265 member(s) have cast votes)

HardPoint Sizes

  1. Yes (213 votes [80.68%])

    Percentage of vote: 80.68%

  2. No (51 votes [19.32%])

    Percentage of vote: 19.32%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#41 3rdworld

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,562 posts

Posted 25 April 2013 - 04:58 PM

View PostShumabot, on 25 April 2013 - 04:48 PM, said:


I understand where you're coming from. I would contend though, that in the end boating is a direct result of hardpoint optimization and not weapon balancing, and that in order to balance the game away from homogeniety between classes they'd have to make the weapons incredibly similar to one another. I also agree that some stock mechs would stand out from others. As it stands now though, what we have is effectively one stock mech per mech, and that stock generally has 1-2 viable or semi viable builds. With more restricted hardpoints you have 3-4 builds per mech with those being tiered to the efficacy of hardpoints. I think it would be healthier for the game in the end, personally.


I agree, but boating is going to happen regardless as stock mechs have boating variants. My point of view is that through balancing weapons I could make a varied build as desirable as a boat.


This conversation has been refreshing. We simply have different ideas to combat the same problem.

#42 MeiSooHaityu

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Knight Errant
  • Knight Errant
  • 10,912 posts
  • LocationMI

Posted 25 April 2013 - 05:04 PM

Most people who want a harpoint limitation are just whining because they don't like the PPC boating. That is a TERRIBLE reason for revamping the mechbay.

If Multiple PPC builds are a problem, change the way heat stacks for the weapon (anything over 2 PPCs cause an ever increasing heat saturation rate). Now have a 3 PPC+ build and you are guarenteed a shutdown after 1 volley for most mechs, etc...

All I know is, if I have a the crit slots and the tonnage, I want to (AND SHOULD BE ABLE TO) fit that weapon. If an AC10 fits in a Raven, then I want to try running with an AC10, etc... Hell, it is basically like the Urbanmech everyone wants LOL. Nope, Hardpoint limitations, MGs only...screw that.

I just have a general dislike of people who want to strip a major function of the game because they don't like the current weapon balance.

I'm just glad PGI will ultimately ignore this.

#43 JimSuperBleeder

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Elite Founder
  • Elite Founder
  • 473 posts
  • LocationZimbabwe

Posted 25 April 2013 - 05:18 PM

I think the LBX10 should be 5 slots, down from 6.

#44 Iron War

    Member

  • PipPipPip
  • The Widow Maker
  • 70 posts

Posted 25 April 2013 - 05:19 PM

Why are we following a Cannon timeline? We say that will not be out untill this such and such date. If we go by the time line then how is there a 6 PPC stalker or a AC20/guass cat or AC20 jager. They never existed. Poptarts never existed either for the most part. So should we go stock with only minor improvements or say screw the timeline?

Edited by Iron War, 25 April 2013 - 06:55 PM.


#45 Shumabot

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,695 posts

Posted 25 April 2013 - 05:31 PM

View Post3rdworld, on 25 April 2013 - 04:58 PM, said:


I agree, but boating is going to happen regardless as stock mechs have boating variants. My point of view is that through balancing weapons I could make a varied build as desirable as a boat.


This conversation has been refreshing. We simply have different ideas to combat the same problem.


Boating should only be materially possible on mechs that are designed to boat, such as the cat with lrm 20 tubes or the atlas with energy weapons. A mix of large and small hardpoints functionally stops boating for 95% of mechs. This is presuming PGI understands balance at all in this game.

Edited by Shumabot, 25 April 2013 - 05:33 PM.


#46 MustrumRidcully

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 10,644 posts

Posted 26 April 2013 - 02:32 AM

View PostAntiCitizenJuan, on 25 April 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

All signs of MW:O's recent imbalances point right back to the concept of Hardpoint Sizes.
Mechs would be not only easier to balance, but also more unique in their own ways as some variants may have different Hardpoint Layouts.

It has been discussed to death. But for a reason.

Would you support the idea of Hardpoint Sizes? Or are you just going to keep on rolling your cheese builds until the game ***** the bed?

Would they really be easier to balance?

The problem with any hard point system that you just need to wait for the right stock configuration that requires hard points that can be abusive with a different build. Hard points don't really protect you from that, because there is never a guarantee that a problematic mech won't come around eventually.

If you make the hard point sizes to restrictive, you will make people simply unable to modify their mech in a meaningful manner.

I think it would be better if hard points are limited to one purpose only: Making mech "feel" right, so t hat a mech with a giant shoulder-mounted gun doesn't change in a mech with 2 giant arm mounted guns and an empty shoulder, and stuff like that.

The balance should be reeinforced by designing balanced weapon stats and weapon mechanics so that no weapon configuration has undue synergies and benefits.

View PostShumabot, on 25 April 2013 - 05:31 PM, said:


Boating should only be materially possible on mechs that are designed to boat, such as the cat with lrm 20 tubes or the atlas with energy weapons. A mix of large and small hardpoints functionally stops boating for 95% of mechs. This is presuming PGI understands balance at all in this game.

But if boating is a better choice then non-boating, then the boat-mechs will simply be superior. That's no real help IMO.

Boating is good for several factors:
1) All weapons behave the same. Same cycle time, same durations, same ammo types, same ranges. That's all great and makes it much easier to handle these weapons - you only need to account for one weapon behaviour.
2) When yo uhave the same cycle times, you can shoot weapons together. And since the game features convergence, you really want to fire your weapons together, because it's the best way to ensure you really hit the same spot at all times.

If it was actually impossible to fire weapons together and there was always a 0.25 second delay minimum or something like that, then boating would have much less benefit here. (I am not saying this is a form of implementation I support). Since you have to aim each shot with each weapon seperately, the trend would go to use less weapons instead of more, and mixing different weapon types with different behaviours being less punishment, since you have to aim and fire each weapon seperately anyway. A reasonably competent player will be able to handle different projectile speeds of 2 or 3 different guns, and he doens't lose the benefit of converging multiple weapons since no one has that benefit.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 26 April 2013 - 02:33 AM.


#47 3rdworld

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,562 posts

Posted 26 April 2013 - 04:00 AM

View PostShumabot, on 25 April 2013 - 05:31 PM, said:


Boating should only be materially possible on mechs that are designed to boat, such as the cat with lrm 20 tubes or the atlas with energy weapons. A mix of large and small hardpoints functionally stops boating for 95% of mechs. This is presuming PGI understands balance at all in this game.


But without combating the problem of boating being superior you are simply shifting the meta to those variants which boat naturally.

And where you see combating boating on most mechs, I see making 95% of the mechs irrelevant.

Edited by 3rdworld, 26 April 2013 - 04:03 AM.


#48 Varnas

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 141 posts

Posted 26 April 2013 - 04:09 AM

View Post3rdworld, on 26 April 2013 - 04:00 AM, said:


But without combating the problem of boating being superior you are simply shifting the meta to those variants which boat naturally.

And where you see combating boating on most mechs, I see making 95% of the mechs irrelevant.

I'd rather have 95% irrelevant mechs (even if i don't see how)
Than what we have now were 99% are irrelevant...

#49 3rdworld

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,562 posts

Posted 26 April 2013 - 05:33 AM

View PostVarnas, on 26 April 2013 - 04:09 AM, said:

I'd rather have 95% irrelevant mechs (even if i don't see how)
Than what we have now were 99% are irrelevant...


There are actually around 10 good variants of ~80 mechs. About 12.5%.

And balancing the weapons would increase the number of good variants. Switching to this system doesn't, it just changes them to others.

A1s & C4s used to be good. Now they are bad because missiles are bad. That is 2 more chassis from a simple missile buff.

Changing it so that only A1s can mount large LRMs doesn't buff them, they are still as irrelevant as they are now.

Edited by 3rdworld, 26 April 2013 - 05:37 AM.


#50 Shumabot

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,695 posts

Posted 26 April 2013 - 06:00 AM

View Post3rdworld, on 26 April 2013 - 04:00 AM, said:


But without combating the problem of boating being superior you are simply shifting the meta to those variants which boat naturally.

And where you see combating boating on most mechs, I see making 95% of the mechs irrelevant.


Except those mechs are already irrelevant and those boat capable mechs are not the top contenders when compared to their current capability. Nothing in the game would be capable of using 4-6 PPCs, 6 SRM6s, the cat couldn't use dual ac20, nothing would be spamming lrm60's, etc. The games most exploitative builds would become instantly impossible. Would it still bleach down to a fraction of the total mechs? Yeah. But it would be 3-4 times the variety we currently have and it would be much less unbalanced and exploitative.

If the Laser Awesome and the quad ac5 jager are the spammiest things can get post hardpoint sizes thats ok with me. It prevents this from being highlander-ac40jag-LLstalker: Online.

Which is all it is now. Lets not be coy, this game is not doing well and the hilarious unbalance and incredible homogeneity of power builds is why. You'll never escape that without forcing the issue.

View Post3rdworld, on 26 April 2013 - 05:33 AM, said:


There are actually around 10 good variants of ~80 mechs. About 12.5%.

And balancing the weapons would increase the number of good variants. Switching to this system doesn't, it just changes them to others.

A1s & C4s used to be good. Now they are bad because missiles are bad. That is 2 more chassis from a simple missile buff.

Changing it so that only A1s can mount large LRMs doesn't buff them, they are still as irrelevant as they are now.


When A1's were good half of the "useful builds" we have now weren't because the a1 could instagib them. The introduction of the highlander pushed the cataphract entirely out of usefulness and the ac40 jagermech + ballistic HSR removed lights from competition entirely. There is no concieveable way that hardpoint sizes don't increase build diversity, it can be mathematically proofed that wide baselines improve water flow and it's common game design practice. Unlimited customizational freedom results in homogeneity due to the nature of selective conditioning.

Edited by Shumabot, 26 April 2013 - 06:01 AM.


#51 Bishop Steiner

    ForumWarrior

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Hammer
  • The Hammer
  • 47,187 posts
  • Locationclimbing Mt Tryhard, one smoldering Meta-Mech corpse at a time

Posted 26 April 2013 - 06:00 AM

View PostAntiCitizenJuan, on 25 April 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

All signs of MW:O's recent imbalances point right back to the concept of Hardpoint Sizes.
Mechs would be not only easier to balance, but also more unique in their own ways as some variants may have different Hardpoint Layouts.

It has been discussed to death. But for a reason.

Would you support the idea of Hardpoint Sizes? Or are you just going to keep on rolling your cheese builds until the game ***** the bed?

and oddly, that OTHER MW title in development I hear has hard point sizes.

#52 3rdworld

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,562 posts

Posted 26 April 2013 - 06:08 AM

View PostShumabot, on 26 April 2013 - 05:57 AM, said:


Except those mechs are already irrelevant and those boat capable mechs are not the top contenders when compared to their current capability. Nothing in the game would be capable of using 4-6 PPCs, 6 SRM6s, the cat couldn't use dual ac20, nothing would be spamming lrm60's, etc. The games most exploitative builds would become instantly impossible. Would it still bleach down to a fraction of the total mechs? Yeah. But it would be 3-4 times the variety we currently have and it would be much less unbalanced and exploitative.

If the Laser Awesome and the quad ac2 jager are the spammiest things can get post hardpoint sizes thats ok with me. It prevents this from being highlander-ac40jag-LLstalker: Online.

Which is all it is now. Lets not be coy, this game is not doing well and the hilarious unbalance and incredible homogeneity of power builds is why. You'll never escape that without forcing the issue.


Your solution does nothing to fix imbalances. You are assuming people will run the bad mechs. They won't, just as they don't now.

Your variety might last a week, until people figure out which mechs are the best, if it even takes that long. Instead of stalkers you are going to get 9Ms. Instead of d-dcs you will get Ks. Instead of the Highlander 732 you get the 733P. You don't make missile carrying mechs viable by forcing them to use missiles. You make them viable by making missiles good.

You are treating the symptoms of bad weapon balance. I want to cure the disease. Make other weapons viable and build variety increases, as does mech variety.

#53 Bishop Steiner

    ForumWarrior

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Hammer
  • The Hammer
  • 47,187 posts
  • Locationclimbing Mt Tryhard, one smoldering Meta-Mech corpse at a time

Posted 26 April 2013 - 06:08 AM

View PostMeiSooHaityu, on 25 April 2013 - 05:04 PM, said:

Most people who want a harpoint limitation are just whining because they don't like the PPC boating. That is a TERRIBLE reason for revamping the mechbay.

If Multiple PPC builds are a problem, change the way heat stacks for the weapon (anything over 2 PPCs cause an ever increasing heat saturation rate). Now have a 3 PPC+ build and you are guarenteed a shutdown after 1 volley for most mechs, etc...

All I know is, if I have a the crit slots and the tonnage, I want to (AND SHOULD BE ABLE TO) fit that weapon. If an AC10 fits in a Raven, then I want to try running with an AC10, etc... Hell, it is basically like the Urbanmech everyone wants LOL. Nope, Hardpoint limitations, MGs only...screw that.

I just have a general dislike of people who want to strip a major function of the game because they don't like the current weapon balance.

I'm just glad PGI will ultimately ignore this.

Actually, I'm not whining. And the PPCs boats I agree are more a Heat Threshhold issue than anything. What I dislike is MG slots holding Gauss rifles, and I LIKE the Gaussapult, as I do rather well in it. Or SRM2 slots firing out 20 LRMs. I simply feel that having 2 classes of hard point size (support, small and large) would allow mechs to at least be recognizable. Would it limit customization? Yes. And TBH, even as a long time TT guy, I think it NEEDS some limits. We aren't driving Omnis, but we might as well be. But having "support" slots for MGs, Flamers, small lasers, NARC, Tag, AMS, "smalls" covering Mediums, Larges, AC/2 and 5, SRM2-4, LRM5-10, and "larges" coviering all the bigguns, would actually limit all forms of boating, not just PPC Stalkers.

And simply put, this is a "BETA" (supposedly), so where is the harm in "testing" the idea and seeing how it actually works? (Along with fixing the bloody heat threshold issues)

#54 Yokaiko

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • Bad Company
  • 6,775 posts

Posted 26 April 2013 - 06:11 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 26 April 2013 - 06:08 AM, said:

And simply put, this is a "BETA" (supposedly), so where is the harm in "testing" the idea and seeing how it actually works? (Along with fixing the bloody heat threshold issues)



Takes them too long to tweak numbers, you would think that there would have been wild damage, heat, and ROF swings in CB, the only thing that swung wildly was the economic systems.

Telling no?

#55 Zyllos

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,818 posts

Posted 26 April 2013 - 06:20 AM

View PostMustrumRidcully, on 26 April 2013 - 02:32 AM, said:

If it was actually impossible to fire weapons together and there was always a 0.25 second delay minimum or something like that, then boating would have much less benefit here. (I am not saying this is a form of implementation I support). Since you have to aim each shot with each weapon seperately, the trend would go to use less weapons instead of more, and mixing different weapon types with different behaviours being less punishment, since you have to aim and fire each weapon seperately anyway. A reasonably competent player will be able to handle different projectile speeds of 2 or 3 different guns, and he doens't lose the benefit of converging multiple weapons since no one has that benefit.


See, I thought about that also.

What if there was a 0.2s global cooldown on weapons? One issue I found is that this kills AC/2s. You could wield no more than 2 of them before it would be pointless after that point because you could just fire as fast as 6 AC/2s with 2 AC/2s.

This problem is multifaceted:

Random Armor Distribution System in a Non-Random Game
Pin-Point Convergence
RoF to Damage/Heat Ratios
Close to Unlimited Modification

Making a change to one of the systems effects so many other systems, which shifts the balance wildly. A good example of this is if you increase the heat of the PPC, people who use one or two PPCs are penalized.

This problem is going to take both the entire MWO community and PGI to acknowledge there is a huge flaw in the game and to give concessions that something is going to have to give or the game will forever be in balancing limbo.

#56 Grondoval

    Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 57 posts
  • LocationGermany

Posted 26 April 2013 - 06:39 AM

I strongly agree with the OP. We badly need a new hardpoint system.

You could argue with yourself: what are the things that make my mech unique? Surely not that you could twist your torso xy° to the left or right. Primarily its the weapon layout that rings your bell. But as it stands now almost every mech could mount almost every weapon. Warhammer or Marauder with 2 PPCs? My Stalker has 6 of them! Victor with single AC20? Blud, my Jager or Catapult K2 has two of them. The current hardpoint system kills variety and it WILL become even more evident when there are more mechs in the game.

#57 Yokaiko

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • Bad Company
  • 6,775 posts

Posted 26 April 2013 - 06:40 AM

I love 6ppc stalkers

So squishy to a medium or light that is fast enough to get inside minimum range.

#58 Grondoval

    Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 57 posts
  • LocationGermany

Posted 26 April 2013 - 06:42 AM

View PostYokaiko, on 26 April 2013 - 06:40 AM, said:

I love 6ppc stalkers

So squishy to a medium or light that is fast enough to get inside minimum range.



Sure, the Gauss-Friends of the Stalker wont mind...

#59 Funky Bacon

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 629 posts

Posted 26 April 2013 - 06:42 AM

What if we mix MWO's hardpoint system with MW4's?

Give it a simple crit restriction based on how big or how many weapons one part should be able to carry.
It would stop boating of larger weapons but still enable you to mount some big ones depending on mech and variant (which could also make some variants less useless with some different crit loadouts even if they have the same max (or even lesser) number of weapon hardpoints than a "better" variant).

Spoiler


On the edited Stalker above you could in the left arm for example fit two large lasers, or two medium, or one PPC and one medium laser at any given time along with a 5 slot missile launcher or smaller.

Edited by Funky Bacon, 26 April 2013 - 06:45 AM.


#60 ArmageddonKnight

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 2
  • 710 posts

Posted 26 April 2013 - 06:44 AM

Witnessed a spider with a AC10 last night, and a Cicada with 2 ER LL's ...thats rediculus tbh, the weapons phsyical size is just to large. Restrictions on what mechs can equip in terms of size need ot be put in. I know PGI want customisation..but this is to extreme.

Light/fast mech should be restricted to small weapons and maybe 1 or 2 mediums. Slower/ medium mechs should be restricted to Small, medium, and maybe 1 or 2 large weapons. heavy and Assualt mechs should be allowed to use all weapons with Heavy mechs having a tighter restriction on very Large weapons like AC20's and such.

There is only 1 reason you wouldnt liek this idea.. and thats if ur currently enjoying exploiting the silly loadouts currently possible. balance would be helped so much if this idea was put in along with a revised heat system (lower cap, higher cooling rate, overheat penalties)

Edited by ArmageddonKnight, 26 April 2013 - 06:48 AM.






1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users