74 replies to this topic

[danger uxo]

RainbowToh, on 26 April 2013 - 01:43 AM, said:

@danger uxo

Unfortunately previous MW titles have this 'pinpoint' shooting too as well, to a certain extent. LOL it has been sometime since I last played MW2,3,4.

Yeah, I remember all of those; playing MW2 with a Thrustmaster joystick, throttle and peddles is what really started me loving simulator style video games.

I also remember the MW4 public games turning into nothing more than NH/UA jumping sniper alpha fests. I'd really like to avoid that with MWO and I think getting back to BattleTech's foundational balance principles is the way to do that.

[Taemien]

A CoF would not affect the game like you all think it would. It would have to be enough to not be noticeable by chain firing. But enough to discourage group firing. But not enough to make alpha strikes or group firing unviable. Otherwise we're going to have macros popup to circumvent the issue. A 6 PPC stalker user would simply map each PPC to a weapon group and fire them all at once with a macro with just enough delay between weapons to defeat the system. In fact this is already being done. This would serve no use except to punish new players.

The alternative is quite simply leave COF out of the game and take out groupfire/alphastrike entirely. But that would alienate much of the player base.

I don't like entertaining the idea of COF for many reasons. The main reason being that the skill levels of most of you are horrendous. The majority of forum goers are simply terrible at the game. And this is by their own accounts. I read these players' accounts of situations and normally I can pick out what they did wrong and its usually something very elementary.

1. They don't twist their torsos to spread out damage.
2. They charge into brawl, using very little cover. or...
3. They are timid and don't charge forth when it is called for.
4. They boat themselves.
5. They have very little situational awareness.
6. They do not move in erratic or random patterns while moving, or simply stand still.

I know many of you are going to claim that you don't do these things. But from what I've seen in game, this is what causes the majority of deaths/losses. If the majority of the community didn't do these things and Boats were still a problem, then I would say we have an argument.

I know some of you claim that they are effective in 8v8s. Well I want to dispel one myth there. 8v8 players are not the best of the best in MWO. They can't be. Here's the facts. 8v8s are very small in number compared to PUG games. So we do not have the means to determine how good or bad those players are by personal accounts. PGI has the information on them of course, but I'd say that reference is much much smaller than PUG games, small enough that the data wouldn't be very consistent.

Of course in the end, they know if PPCs in groups is actually OP or not, they'll have the data to suggest it. Like when everyone was complaining about ECM. PGI was able to find the reason it was OP and were able to balance it how it should have been. Well they didn't balance it at all because they found with their data that it wasn't the problem.

I think something similar is going to happen here. They are going to find the root of the problem, expose it. Everyone will get upset, but in the end, they'll simply just have to adapt.

But as I said, I'd love to entertain the thoughts of changing certain mechanics of the game, but if and only if the playerbase was a little more adaptable to situations. Right now they are not. They have yet to show an ability to adapt except to use the path of least resistance and expect the devs to get them further when they hit a wall.

Find a way to beat these boats, without using boats. Then we'll talk.

[Joseph Mallan]

The game is missing the Reticle changing color when a good solution is gained. I am doing fine without it but nostalgia is having a tantrum in the background of my mind.

[Jam the Bam]

I dont wan't any randomness in my firing at all, reticle shake I could deal with, but no randomness.

That would absolutely ruin the game for me. It should be skill based and ONLY skill based. No RNG WoT random crap.

[Echo6]

I'm under the impression that the devs don't much care about emulating TT. That disappoints me because the only reason I play this game is because of TT.

[Alkospike]

The true "cone of fire" is not the thing to go, i believe.
Dynamic crosshair - is, i think.
All i can do is repost and hope for the best:

Good, old dynamic crosshair. Linked to convergence.
http://mwomercs.com/...out-randomness/

[Hotthedd]

SirLANsalot, on 25 April 2013 - 09:08 PM, said:

Accuracy. Its called Skill. Those who do it. Win. Those who don't. Whine.


Everyone supporting this stupid idea is literally trying to take Skill out of the game and add in a system that doesn't, and shouldn't, exist in a real time, super far future game.

Skill is what says you DO, or DO NOT hit. I am a pretty damn good shot myself, but even I still miss at long ranges, and close combat, I can pick your mech apart pretty easily with pinpoint shooting.

Call it what you will, but a lot of players are basically (in TT values) Elite Pilots with a +yes to hit.

Quite the opposite is true. Using a mouse on a two dimensional screen and having magic insta-convergence in THREE dimensional space is NOT skill. Having fixed weapons have fixed convergence and arm-mounted weapons have variable, assisted convergence would require ACTUAL skill to land a full alpha.

[Joseph Mallan]

Jammerben87, on 26 April 2013 - 03:51 AM, said:

I dont wan't any randomness in my firing at all, reticle shake I could deal with, but no randomness.

That would absolutely ruin the game for me. It should be skill based and ONLY skill based. No RNG WoT random crap.

You never shot a real weapon did you?

I fired enough to know that how things are working in game is as SciFi as giant stompy robots.If I fired as accurately in real life as I do in MWO I would have been a Marine Sniper! Correction THE Marine Sniper.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 26 April 2013 - 05:27 AM.

[danger uxo]

Jammerben87, on 26 April 2013 - 03:51 AM, said:

I dont wan't any randomness in my firing at all, reticle shake I could deal with, but no randomness.

That would absolutely ruin the game for me. It should be skill based and ONLY skill based. No RNG WoT random crap.

If you desire a purely skill based game without randomness then I recommend you play chess or something similar to chess; I'm not saying that to be an *** but games without some means of simulating randomness are completely inadequate when attempting to simulate something with as much randomness as dynamic, tactical level combat. The game MWO is based on, BattleTech uses a random number generation system (2d6) to simulate that randomness and much of the game balance inherent in and derived from BattleMech design is based on the random hit location system.

Specifically BattleMechs are designed (in the game sense, not in the in universe sense) to receive damage to a spread of locations determined at random using the probability curve of 2d6; this is why a 'Mech's center torso hit location is one of the most heavily armored hit locations and the head (which contains the cockpit and therefore is probably the most important part of the 'Mech) is the single most lightly armored hit location. This armor layout doesn't make much sense from a 'realistic' design point of view for a combat vehicle that can absorb ridiculous amounts of damage, but from a game design perspective it makes sense based on the 2d6 probability curve; the CT takes damage on a roll of 7 where as the head takes damage on a 12 so the CT is significantly more likely to receive damage than the head.

If you eliminate that spread mechanic and instead impose a system of pinpoint damage where all weapons fired as part of a weapons group (or from the same location or whatnot) reliably strike the same hit location then you are significantly altering the way the game plays and feels (in the sense of what a game based on BattleTech 'should' feel like) as well as completely destroying one of the main balancing elements of the game. Removal of that balancing element inevitably leads to the current 'meta game' of high damage alpha sniping since it is the most efficient means of destroying an opposing player's 'mech and winning the game. Granted, in my opinion there is at least one other significant factor (the current heat system) leading to the current designs for the high alpha pinpoint strikes, but even without that factor we'd still be seeing players finding ways to get the highest pinpoint damage possible in order to exploit the current system.

So what's to be done? MWO needs some means of re-instating (or otherwise simulating) the damage spread mechanic that BattleMechs are designed around; it doesn't necessarily need to be a RNG, but it has to be something since that mechanic is so core to the game. As I said in an earlier post, I like Renthrak's suggestion of a significantly slower convergence system for every weapon mounted on the 'Mech; after all the canon reasoning behind the random hit locations is the fact that the 'Mech's targeting and tracking (T&T) system is what's actually doing the aiming, not the 'Mechwarrior. The MechWarrior is essentially just telling his/her 'Mech which enemy 'Mech to shoot at and when, the T&T system then directs the various weapons to align and fire taking into account known factors such as the 'Mech's current speed, range to target and other such data the 'Mech's sensors can gather. If the 'MechWarrior tells the 'Mech to fire before the T&T system has been able to fully align all the weapons then you're going to get a damage spread. The system suggested by Renthrak sounds to me like an excellent means of simulating that process while still allowing a good degree of player induced accuracy based on situational factors like enemy movement (or lack thereof). Other suggestions may be equally viable at maintaining the balance and feel of the game, PGI just needs to find one they can implement and test it out.

Edited because I spelled Renthrak's name wrong, sorry!

Edited by danger uxo, 26 April 2013 - 06:58 AM.

[Zyllos]

Taemien, on 26 April 2013 - 03:35 AM, said:

...
1. They don't twist their torsos to spread out damage.
...

This tactic favors alpha strikers because you can torso twist inbetween cooldowns. If your playing a build that is DPS, your at a disadvantage.

[RainbowToh]

I have added a new choice after reading some of the replies. I think my preference would be closer to a dynamic crosshair rather than a cone of fire. Cone of fire was the first term that came to my mind when i first made this thread. After reading other threads, dynamic crosshair sounds like a good compromise.

[Mister Blastman]

RainbowToh, on 25 April 2013 - 11:08 PM, said:

That might work too. And you can only change your torso convergence in the mech lab.

Exactly, like you do in say Rise of Flight or IL-2 Sturmovik.

[Aeolus Drift]

Taemien, on 26 April 2013 - 03:35 AM, said:

A CoF would not affect the game like you all think it would. It would have to be enough to not be noticeable by chain firing. But enough to discourage group firing. But not enough to make alpha strikes or group firing unviable. Otherwise we're going to have macros popup to circumvent the issue. A 6 PPC stalker user would simply map each PPC to a weapon group and fire them all at once with a macro with just enough delay between weapons to defeat the system. In fact this is already being done. This would serve no use except to punish new players.

The alternative is quite simply leave COF out of the game and take out groupfire/alphastrike entirely. But that would alienate much of the player base.

I don't like entertaining the idea of COF for many reasons. The main reason being that the skill levels of most of you are horrendous. The majority of forum goers are simply terrible at the game. And this is by their own accounts. I read these players' accounts of situations and normally I can pick out what they did wrong and its usually something very elementary.

1. They don't twist their torsos to spread out damage.
2. They charge into brawl, using very little cover. or...
3. They are timid and don't charge forth when it is called for.
4. They boat themselves.
5. They have very little situational awareness.
6. They do not move in erratic or random patterns while moving, or simply stand still.

I know many of you are going to claim that you don't do these things. But from what I've seen in game, this is what causes the majority of deaths/losses. If the majority of the community didn't do these things and Boats were still a problem, then I would say we have an argument.

I know some of you claim that they are effective in 8v8s. Well I want to dispel one myth there. 8v8 players are not the best of the best in MWO. They can't be. Here's the facts. 8v8s are very small in number compared to PUG games. So we do not have the means to determine how good or bad those players are by personal accounts. PGI has the information on them of course, but I'd say that reference is much much smaller than PUG games, small enough that the data wouldn't be very consistent.

Of course in the end, they know if PPCs in groups is actually OP or not, they'll have the data to suggest it. Like when everyone was complaining about ECM. PGI was able to find the reason it was OP and were able to balance it how it should have been. Well they didn't balance it at all because they found with their data that it wasn't the problem.

I think something similar is going to happen here. They are going to find the root of the problem, expose it. Everyone will get upset, but in the end, they'll simply just have to adapt.

But as I said, I'd love to entertain the thoughts of changing certain mechanics of the game, but if and only if the playerbase was a little more adaptable to situations. Right now they are not. They have yet to show an ability to adapt except to use the path of least resistance and expect the devs to get them further when they hit a wall.

Find a way to beat these boats, without using boats. Then we'll talk.

To be fair though, twisting your torso to reduce the damage of an incoming alpha snipe doesn't really reduce the problem when all the damage lands on the same spot. On the one hand it does allow you to live for a few extra seconds, on the other hand the armor is probably stripped off of the section the alpha strike landed on leaving another section of your mech open to crits.

Edited by Interceptor12, 26 April 2013 - 08:39 AM.

[FunkyFritter]

I would be interested in seeing what happens if projectile speeds are lowered. That makes precision shots harder to hit and increases the significance of player input rather than reducing it. Sniping is a lot less potent if ppc shots can be dodged by lights and heavies have time to torso twist in response to incoming fire.

[Carl Wrede]

I said it in closed beta and i will say it again:

The system used by world of tanks would be perfect for battletech/mechwarrior. Its a targeting circle where your shot will hit somewhere within the circle. When you stand still and aim the circle becomes very small and when you walk/run/jump or have to much heat built up it grows bigger.

[Critical Fumble]

I a idea about this that don't involve a true CoF, just imperfect conversion (technically that makes it "cylinder of fire" but whatever)

It started as more of a rabbit trail. I knew that TAG is a laser rangefinder that weighs in at a full ton. Then I realized that all mechs in this game have a rangefinder built into the HUD. What I thought then was, "what if TAG was the only rangefinder in the game?" For instance, a targeting computer can sight a single weapon every 0.5 to 0.25 seconds, but it can't tell precisely where the target is immediately, so it overshoots regularly. It would preserve the "skill" aspect of the game by preventing wild misses while preventing easy Death Star shots and also add in a few features to make the game more interesting. TAG, for instance, could be used to pinpoint the location of a target, and C3 computers could actually do something worthwhile.

[Echo6]

Critical Fumble, on 26 April 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

I a idea about this that don't involve a true CoF, just imperfect conversion (technically that makes it "cylinder of fire" but whatever)

It started as more of a rabbit trail. I knew that TAG is a laser rangefinder that weighs in at a full ton. Then I realized that all mechs in this game have a rangefinder built into the HUD. What I thought then was, "what if TAG was the only rangefinder in the game?" For instance, a targeting computer can sight a single weapon every 0.5 to 0.25 seconds, but it can't tell precisely where the target is immediately, so it overshoots regularly. It would preserve the "skill" aspect of the game by preventing wild misses while preventing easy Death Star shots and also add in a few features to make the game more interesting. TAG, for instance, could be used to pinpoint the location of a target, and C3 computers could actually do something worthwhile.

Death Star shots... perfect description of the PPC boat.

[Ansel]

A CoF isn't needed.

Change the way armor takes damage from weapons so that weapons deal damage in a small area instead of to an entire section each shot.

If a player had to cluster PPC shots more tightly to make a small breach in the armor we wouldn't be having PoPtart mech configs because they wouldn't generaly be able to re-aim close enough to where they shot previously to breach armor effectivly, or the player getting shot could just turn their torso a small ammount makeing any shots a poptart shoot hit fresh armor even if it were on the same section.

Also larger mechs would be able to actualy spread damage out better on the larger armor sections they have, like the awsome, giving an advantage to both small profile mechs and large profile mechs.

[MaddMaxx]

TheForce, on 25 April 2013 - 07:12 PM, said:

this game is not MechWarrior. it looks like MechWarrior, but without some type of weapon spread for group fire it will never be balanced to what MechWarrior really is.

QQ

The reason for that is obvious. This isn't what your referring to, which is BattleTech.

MechWarrior can never be "like" BattleTech because BattleTech uses Dice, To-Hit charts and +/- modifiers etc etc.

Although, I do have some pretty fancy Dice in my current Mech(s), they don't Roll for the Hits, I do.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 26 April 2013 - 10:24 AM.

[AnubiteGroove]

I'm going to keep this short, sweet, and to the point.

If you want cone-of-fire, go play another game. It's for self-gratification of the masses, tossing play more up to chance. Thank you.