74 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

AnubiteGroove, on 26 April 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

I'm going to keep this short, sweet, and to the point.

If you want cone-of-fire, go play another game. It's for self-gratification of the masses, tossing play more up to chance. Thank you.

If you want pin point shooting take a rifle to the range and see how tight a group you make at 200, 300 and 500 meters then talk to me about skill and convergence.

[MaddMaxx]

Ansel, on 26 April 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

A CoF isn't needed.

Change the way armor takes damage from weapons so that weapons deal damage in a small area instead of to an entire section each shot.

If a player had to cluster PPC shots more tightly to make a small breach in the armor we wouldn't be having PoPtart mech configs because they wouldn't generally be able to re-aim close enough to where they shot previously to breach armor effectively, or the player getting shot could just turn their torso a small amount making any shots a poptart shoot hit fresh armor even if it were on the same section.

Also larger mechs would be able to actually spread damage out better on the larger armor sections they have, like the awesome, giving an advantage to both small profile mechs and large profile mechs.

This ideas was also posed during the CB. Breaking the current Mech section down into smaller segments and have those be destroyed individually and the "whole section" would require all the "smalls" to be destroyed first.

Another benefit that could be seen by this method, would be possible earlier access to internal critical controls and mechanisms and thus the whole Mechs slow but brutal deterioration could be done without using Heat as a means to slowly ruin ones ride.

P.S. Although Heat should be the unit used to force the Pilots that make use of the really Hot and High alpha builds have as much of a downside as they have the upside.

[Tombstoner]

HRR Insanity, on 25 April 2013 - 05:18 PM, said:

The Devs know about this, they just don't care. I've been asking for this change for almost a year.

Its not that they dont care. It's that they have specifically designed the game to remove almost all randomness.
What has taken hold is linked high damage alpha strikes. this was predicted way way.. before any changes to weapon stats and the addition of the highlander.


The game is going to be launched as is.... MW4 online:pop tarting alpha strikes.

[Renthrak]

Tombstoner, on 26 April 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

Its not that they dont care. It's that they have specifically designed the game to remove almost all randomness.

Tombstoner, on 26 April 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

MW4 online:pop tarting alpha strikes.

It's possible to reduce the problem within this restriction.

Quote

Another effect of slower convergence would be a change to the risk/reward for jump-sniping and Alpha-Strike builds. In the case of jump snipers, their weapons would converge on the cover they are hiding behind while they wait for their jump jets to recharge. Thus, in the brief time that they can actually see their target while jumping, convergence would not have time to adjust to a target more than a couple hundred meters away. The only way to get around this would be to expose the cockpit of the jump sniper while they wait for their jump jets to recharge, so they can put the reticule on-target early, which also means that they would be vulnerable to return fire during that time. Similarly, holding the reticule over the cover that a jump sniper is hiding behind would move convergence much closer to the jump sniper's 'Mech, so that they are easier to hit by players waiting for them to pop up again.

High-Alpha builds often function similarly to jump snipers, staying behind cover while their weapons recycle and their heat dissipates. As long as a team mate keeps their target locked, they know exactly where to aim the moment they emerge from cover. With slowed convergence, this is impossible. Instead, they would be forced to expose their cockpit to put the reticule on-target while they cool down, making them vulnerable and giving away their exact position. At the same time, this would allow their opponents to let their weapons converge either on the exposed cockpit or the cover they are hiding behind, shifting the targeting advantage away from the Alpha build. Instead, 'Mechs that have a variety of weapons that can fire while keeping the crosshair on the target should be competitive again.

From my suggestion poll on the topic.

[Critical Fumble]

Joseph Mallan, on 26 April 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

If you want pin point shooting take a rifle to the range and see how tight a group you make at 200, 300 and 500 meters then talk to me about skill and convergence.

Shooting things is so much easier when the iron sight automatically zeroes where you want it too, rather than you having to worry if your sights are correct and your eye is in the right place.

I'm also curious as to when trigger disciple stopped being "skill".

[MasterErrant]

Renthrak, on 25 April 2013 - 02:51 PM, said:

I recently spent quite a bit of time reading through about a dozen of the novels, by numerous different authors, paying particular attention to targeting and accuracy mechanics. Based on what is consistent between different examples in the books, it is possible to approximate how the TT mechanics were 'intended' to be applied to a real-time environment.

One of the more surprising things that I found is that pin-point accuracy actually is supported. The caveat is that it is far from instant. From what I can determine, MWO's convergence system is theoretically a passable interpretation of this. Don't stop reading, though, it's not that simple.

In the fiction, targeting accuracy is line-of-sight based. Detecting something on sensors doesn't automatically allow the pilot to hit it. In order for the 'Mech to ensure that its weapons will hit the target, the pilot must hold the targeting reticule on the body of the target for a period of time. The precision of the shot depends upon the amount of time that the reticule is held on-target before firing.

If the pilot fires immediately after placing the reticule on the target, it is unlikely that all of its weapons will hit. Intentionally striking the location directly under the reticule is almost impossible.

If the pilot holds the reticule on-target for a few seconds before firing, the vast majority of its weapons will hit the target 'Mech somewhere. The location directly under the reticule will probably be hit by at least 1 of the weapons, but never all of them.

If the pilot holds the reticule on-target for an extended period of time (10+ seconds), pin-point accuracy becomes possible against a stationary target. The best example of this was in the case of a hostile 'Mech taking a hostage in a city. An Atlas arrived to find the enemy 'Mech with its fist poised above a civilian vehicle with people inside. The pilots of the two 'Mechs exchanged several statements before the Atlas could fire. While they were talking, the Atlas had targeted the other 'Mech's cockpit, waiting for the Gauss Rifle in its right torso to achieve pin-point accuracy. When the Atlas fired, the Gauss slug destroyed the cockpit instantly, leaving the rest of the 'Mech undamaged. This demonstrates some important points: Torso weapons can converge; Pin-point targeting is possible; Accuracy increases as the reticule is held over the target.

If we want to emulate this system, there is one very important thing that can be done in MWO: slow down the speed of convergence. The speed suggested in the fiction is probably too slow for MWO, however. I would suggest having the crosshair on the target for maybe 5 seconds for convergence to reach pin-point accuracy. That would force snipers to spend more time exposed before firing if they want to hit their target precisely. It would make it more difficult to hit smaller, fast-moving targets at long range, improving the survival rate of light 'Mechs. It will also make snap-shots at targets that suddenly appear from behind cover much less effective, making the use of cover more important.

It would remain possible for players to fire immediately, before their weapons converge fully, but they would lose the ability to precisely hit a single armor section except by luck. On the other hand, it would actually help faster 'Mechs maintain accuracy at short range. Because convergence moves slower, holding the crosshair on-target to get an accurate shot and then rapidly moving off-target while maneuvering, then aiming on-target again would give less time for convergence to deviate from the desired aim-point.

If this were to be implemented, it might be wise to have some indication of weapon convergence on the crosshair. Maybe the crosshair could turn gray when convergence is aiming at the distance under the reticule, only showing gold when convergence is within 25-50m of the target point? Something to that effect, to make it clear when a shot will be accurate.

It's certainly not a perfect solution, and it won't solve all of MWO's problems by itself, but it might move gameplay in a good direction.

Thoughts?

this is just another way of stating the convergence issue. in TT an aimed shot halved you chance to hit and was the last thing to happen in a round "After " all other damage was assesed. which is why you rarely saw them other than in complete suprise ambushes and or on shutdown mechs. (urban mechs hidden inside of buidings shut down comes to mind.) and it was limited to the weapons in one location usually the arm.

these rules were the original fasa rules. I don't know what shlock hasbro spammed into the game when they wrecked it.

Edited by MasterErrant, 26 April 2013 - 09:37 PM.

[RainbowToh]

Ansel, on 26 April 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

A CoF isn't needed.

Change the way armor takes damage from weapons so that weapons deal damage in a small area instead of to an entire section each shot.

If a player had to cluster PPC shots more tightly to make a small breach in the armor we wouldn't be having PoPtart mech configs because they wouldn't generaly be able to re-aim close enough to where they shot previously to breach armor effectivly, or the player getting shot could just turn their torso a small ammount makeing any shots a poptart shoot hit fresh armor even if it were on the same section.

Also larger mechs would be able to actualy spread damage out better on the larger armor sections they have, like the awsome, giving an advantage to both small profile mechs and large profile mechs.

This sounds exactly how it is described in the books and perhaps how it would have happen if Mechwarrior was real. But the flipside is that this sounds terribly hard to code! haha

[danger uxo]

MaddMaxx, on 26 April 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:

The reason for that is obvious. This isn't what your referring to, which is BattleTech. MechWarrior can never be "like" BattleTech because BattleTech uses Dice, To-Hit charts and +/- modifiers etc etc. Although, I do have some pretty fancy Dice in my current Mech(s), they don't Roll for the Hits, I do.

I feel I must take exception to your reasoning here; this game, MechWarrior Online, is a game that takes place in an established universe with established rules for how certain actions occur. One of those rules is that damage to a BattleMech from multiple weapons is not pinpoint in nature but tends to occur in a spread across different locations on the 'Mech. The board game (or table top game if you prefer) employs a random number generator in the form of 2d6 to simulate that spread. In order for MechWarrior to fit into the canon BattleTech universe it too must employ some manner of damage spread system. Currently MWO does not include a damage spread mechanic and therefore does not conform to the BattleTech universe canon and so it feels much less like it is taking place in the BattleTech universe than it should. Of course there are also balance issues that occur due to the pinpoint damage mechanic that are driving the current meta game which also doesn't feel like the BattleTech universe.

[Renthrak]

MasterErrant, on 26 April 2013 - 09:35 PM, said:

these rules were the original fasa rules. I don't know what shlock hasbro spammed into the game when they wrecked it.

I am not basing my suggestion on TT mechanics in the first place. I am referencing authorized, canon descriptions of BattleMech combat, which is the closest we have to a direct 'real-time' interpretation of 'Mech operation beyond the other MechWarrior games.

[P e n u m b r a]

The mistake people make is thinking that ranged weapons are OP they suffer from more heat, more damage fall off over range as well as lower damage per shot and dps when you directly compare the firepower to a brawler build. Other things like Gauss blowing up etc as well as weapon travel time and hitting a visually smaller target at range.

It is either the above or people want to somehow represent rng / dice rolling in the game but I do not think this has a place here. People just think about what they think is lame and cheesy but they need to instead think about what they are suggesting will be exploited and what would be the go to meta with what they suggest. For example Being closer in = smaller cone less spread with high rate of fire dps being king. ranged weapons being to clunky and doing lower damage when you actually do hit to be viable 'devastating' reward for hitting at range will questionable with this kind of suggestion and with TT fanatics most likely dead against damage increase on said weapons.

The fact that there is complaint about grouping and boating confirms that some of you have not actually played organized games at a high elo. Most the teams that are winning a lot will back me up on this but the game is actually more brawler friendly. infact its stronger than the long range game if you consider that every map in its design pretty much has a blind side route to the enemy base where you cannot get enough decent long ranged shots down range before they can just roll up and sit on the base and then thunder dome all your snipers into close range using the base node to block line of sight. This is another thing to note where certain mechs dominate pugs due to lack of teamwork it gives false positives that some builds are overpowered.

As for boating yes I can see for fun like in the books and fantasy "balanced" builds maybe fun but think about it on a efficiency level, give a human customization and a mind that wants to win the most efficient composition will be dedicated roles even in real life you have bombers, fighters, snipers, infantry, medics and if you want to say TT ill just say medium lasers.

Edited by Le0yo, 27 April 2013 - 07:49 AM.

[Hotthedd]

The Alpha striking issue can be solved with heat penalties for firing all of your weapons at once. It would still be possible, but there is a higher risk associated with it. Convergence is another problem altogether. It REMOVES skill from the game. All you have to do is mouse over the screen and click to deliver pinpoint damage from multiple weapons. It makes no difference if your target is 50m away or 500m away or 1200m away, it is simply point and click. Making torso and head mounted weapons have a fixed conversion point, and slowing the time for convergence on arm-mounted weapons would REQUIRE skill to land full alphaderps on target.

[Echo6]

My idea: cone of fire that expands as your mech gets hotter (pinpoint at zero heat).

[Brilig]

Honestly at this point I'd be down with slowed convergence without a chance for perfect convergence except in extreme situations. (shut down Mechs.) Having only a general idea where weapons would hit bugs me, but a couple of people posted cannon examples showing that's how its supposed to work. So sounds good to me.

[Trauglodyte]

MW:O won't work with the randomness in TT. We're playing a first person shooter and the player base will rebel if you put your cross hairs on a mech's torso only to pull the trigger and have the damage go to the target's leg. It just isn't reasonable to put that on us. With that being said, I think something needs to be done about convergence because there is too much heavy damage going to single locations and we can't really go to tripling armor. Sadly, we can't slow down weapon recycles, either, because that would just make mechs more heat efficient even with 1.4 DHSs. And, as was said in ATD36, they're not presently willing to put in a heat penalty system. I think that you could slow down PPCs to 1100m/s and maybe roll back some of the heat deficit but that is only fixing one weapon and it does nothing to the tremendous power of a multi-PPC alpha.

[MasterErrant]

Hammerfinn, on 25 April 2013 - 02:18 PM, said:

Particle means some sort of matter--it's even in the name: projectile.

Particle "Projector cannon.
IRL they fire at about 80% of light speed.
The military refers to them as Zero time of flight weapons just like lasers.

the speed is just stupid.