117 replies to this topic

[Jaroth Corbett]

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you are telling me that the inner sphere would LET them take factories?

You act like they had a choice............

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Wolf hit a button on his podium. The room lights dimmed as a holographic map of the Inner Sphere burned to life in the center of the semi-circle. It slowly rotated so everyone could get a good look, then it split into smaller representations of itself, with one hovering before each delegation's table. As Victor leaned forward to study the map, fear writhed like a snake through his belly.

Normally the Successor States and the worlds they claimed formed a rough circle of star systems approximately 370 light years in diameter, with the circle centered on Terra. On this map, however, a huge chunk had been bitten out of the circle, making it a fat crescent with both horns pointing up and away from the chamber floor. Though the ravaged Free Rasalhague Republic lay at the center of the conquered area, bites had also been taken out of both the Lyran sector of the Federated Commonwealth and from the Draconis Combine.

Victor leaned forward toward his father. "I didn't realize the Combine had been hit so hard. They've lost as many worlds as have we."

Hanse pressed his lips together into a thin line. "I daresay, from the expression on Theodore's face, he was not aware that we'd been hard-hit either. Wolf's intelligence network is very good. Things are much worse than any of us dared imagine."

Wolf waved a hand to include all the maps. "As you can see, the situation is most grave. The Free Rasalhague Republic has lost its capital and over half its worlds. The invaders have also made substantial gains in the Lyran Commonwealth and the Draconis Combine. In less than a year, they have managed to take more worlds than changed hands in the Fourth Succession War, and the efforts to stop them have been less than effective."

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 03 October 2013 - 07:48 AM.

[Stormwolf]

dal10, on 14 July 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

if we are going all out here (on both sides) then the IS would fight back in a scorched earth policy.

That's never again going to happen since the IS powers are far too afraid that they will start regressing back again like in the Succession Wars. It's the same reason why they never attack jumpships.

[dal10]

Jaroth Winson, on 14 July 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

You act like they had a choice............

you act like taking out a factory before an invasion that is several days away gets there is hard.

Stormwolf, on 14 July 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

That's never again going to happen since the IS powers are far too afraid that they will start regressing back again like in the Succession Wars. It's the same reason why they never attack jumpships.

put someones back in a corner and see if they won't do anything they have to do in order to survive.

[Jaroth Corbett]

dal10, on 14 July 2013 - 05:38 PM, said:

you act like taking out a factory before an invasion that is several days away gets there is hard.


put someones back in a corner and see if they won't do anything they have to do in order to survive.

The point is they did not. The Clans rolled in. The defenders fought. The defenders lost & died or fled off world. Whatever was on the planet became the Clans. It is there. it happened.

[KableGuy]

dal10, on 13 July 2013 - 07:44 PM, said:

the logistics are still not there. you couldn't sustain that kind of force at that kind of distance without decades of dedicated preparation the smaller clans could not hold anything and still attack. they controlled 10s of worlds at best. now try to hundreds if not thousands of planets. at the size they were when the invasion stopped you are looking at an absolute MINIMUM of 4 galaxies defending per clan. and even then it would be pathetically easy to take back of planet. ideally they should have 8-9 defending. using 8 that leaves them 5 offensive galaxies. each galaxy is roughly the equivalent to 7 regiments.or 35 for all 5. the inner sphere likely has around 500 regiments of mechs. plus more in vehicles and infantry. so lets assume equal amounts they are facing 1500 regiments of troops. to face 1500 regiments, they have 100 offensive galaxies worth about 700 regiments of mechs. but the thing is, assuming you do better than the numbers say and both sides destroy half of each other. 750 regiments for 50 galaxies. (a kill ratio of about 15 to 1.) who can replace those loses faster? the inner sphere could reconstitute any infantry regiment in months and any armor + battlemech in years. it would take the clans at least 2 decades to fully reconstitute those lost units. to put it simply. the invasion on the timeline given in lore was not unrealistic. it was flat out impossible. the logistics are impossible. you couldn't hope to replace the amount of material they went through from that distance with the ammunition cost alone would take more shipping than the clans had. you are talking about millions of tons of ammo alone. 100 times 375 times probably 5 tons per mech (that is short.) you are looking at 187.5 thousand pounds of ammo for each engagement. (extrapolated) assuming at least 2 engagements per galaxy per world. (assuming the entire galaxy is assigned and uses at least half its ammunitions.) you are looking at 187 tons of ammo per galaxy per world at 2000 worlds and 100 galaxies. that puts you in the gigatons at least for ammo. not to mention food and other necessities such as spare (none of which can be take from the IS until later. to even have that much material stockpiled isn't simply unlikely it is basically unrealistic. because the shear amount of material in one spot would get you raiders from EVERY single clan trying to take a giant city sized supply depot(now try to move it a whole year away via jumpship). to put in simply, the logistics aren't there.

sorry if it is kind of rambly, my thoughts aren't clear at the best of times.

You are assuming none of the worlds the took had any manufacturing capability. Also mechs have ejection systems, you wont have to replace that many actual mechwarriors just their mechs. also i am fairly certain that clan AC5 ammo would not be too terribly different than IS AC5 ammo so when they take a world all they would have to do is change some of the dies at the factory and bam you can make as much ammo as you need and you don't have to ship it from the home worlds.

[CyclonerM]

BitMonger505, on 15 July 2013 - 02:38 PM, said:

You are assuming none of the worlds the took had any manufacturing capability. Also mechs have ejection systems, you wont have to replace that many actual mechwarriors just their mechs. also i am fairly certain that clan AC5 ammo would not be too terribly different than IS AC5 ammo so when they take a world all they would have to do is change some of the dies at the factory and bam you can make as much ammo as you need and you don't have to ship it from the home worlds.

Quite true, but there are lot of spare parts,like those for the Clan equipment which still could not have been produced or taken in the conquered planets.. And Jaroth is right, Clans need lot of time to replace front-line Omni-mechs and Warriors while the IS can replace them far more easily.

[Jaroth Corbett]

When did I say that?

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 15 July 2013 - 03:49 PM.

[Skylarr]

BitMonger505, on 15 July 2013 - 02:38 PM, said:

You are assuming none of the worlds the took had any manufacturing capability. Also mechs have ejection systems, you wont have to replace that many actual mechwarriors just their mechs.

Just because a Mech has an ejection system does not mean the pilot ejects. Automatic ejection only happens when there Ammo Explodes. If there is not Ammoe Explosion then it is up to the pilot to pull the handles. I would say that with the CLan Fire Power only 50%, maybe less, of MechWarriors actually had time to pull the Handles. A piot take allot of damage if the Mech colapse under him. Even an ejected pilot can take some serious injuries.

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also i am fairly certain that clan AC5 ammo would not be too terribly different than IS AC5 ammo so when they take a world all they would have to do is change some of the dies at the factory and bam you can make as much ammo as you need and you don't have to ship it from the home worlds.

The Clans did not feel it would be a long drawn out war. So why would they bring eqquipment and personnel to retool factories? I am sure noone was certain what conditions these factories would be in when they took them. This is why the depended on resupply from the Home Worlds. It would not be until after the invasion that the Clans retooled the few factories they had captured.

[CHH Badkarma]

Add to that ejecting mechwarriors are often captured by Elementals, or killed by the same. Thats assuming that they manage a successful ejection and do not get shot out of the air while doing to.

Personally I hope they add a ejection feature and animation. I need to work on my trap shooting...

Edited by Jason Radick, 15 July 2013 - 06:45 PM.

[Skylarr]

Jason Radick, on 15 July 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

Personally I hope they add a ejection feature and animation. I need to work on my trap shooting...

LOL. I can see it now. A group of Mech blasting away at each other. Then one pops and ther is an ejectio seatr shot up in the air. Then Mechs on both sides stopping to shoot the ejection seat

[CHH Badkarma]

Hopefully a spray of red mist will follow a hit

[dal10]

BitMonger505, on 15 July 2013 - 02:38 PM, said:

You are assuming none of the worlds the took had any manufacturing capability. Also mechs have ejection systems, you wont have to replace that many actual mechwarriors just their mechs. also i am fairly certain that clan AC5 ammo would not be too terribly different than IS AC5 ammo so when they take a world all they would have to do is change some of the dies at the factory and bam you can make as much ammo as you need and you don't have to ship it from the home worlds.

ultra 5 and particularly lbx ammo is significantly different from standard ac/5 rounds.

as for heavy industry, the only 2 planets that the falcons took (as far as i can tell) that had any really heavy industry was twycross and sudeten (sudeten in particular actually had battlemech factories). the wolves had tamar and rasahague, as well as verthandi for material access and agromech factories (would take years of retooling to up that to omnimech capability.) as well as MAYBE (speculation on what would be here) Radstadt and gunzburg. (planets that seem to be important would likely have heavy factories (also note that the farther you get from a realm capital in general and terra in particular, the less high tech you tend to see) but not necessarily mech factories) the bears got alshain and the jags got marshdale. so out of the planets they took, there were (by reasonable speculation) 7 planets that likely had heavy industry. 4 of those would not be taken until the 5th wave of the invasion, so roughly 7-8 months. after that you would need extensive retooling even provided they were taken with 0 damage to the facility. at least a year for retooling to production of anything that is not tech one spheroid gear. (and even then this would be at best tech 2 star league gear, not clan omni gear. 5 years to a decade before they could completely refit a factory to produce omni gear, cause you would basically have to start from scratch.) if the IS fought back with any intelligence at all the only planets you would capture with intact factories would be twycross and rasalhague. cause if it was me the moment you guys hit sudeten those factories would be going down. same thing with alshain, marshdale, gunzburg and radstadt. i would make you guys have to start from scratch.

simply put, you could not take the factories for certain, though likely a good amount of light industry facilities would be taken (cause most mid sized planets have at least some industry for consumer goods. it is heavy duty hardware that is produced only on a few planets).

[Sam Slade]

What the Clans needed was a good O.E.C.(Overzealous Editor Cluster) to zoom around the Inner Sphere and kill the protagonists from the major Houses. With this achieved there wouldn't have been enough time left in the books to develop new leadership characters(without using Hobbits ... or the dreaded Eagles Deus Ex Machina Drive) and so the Clans would have won by default.

[Morgan Kerensky]

BitMonger505, on 15 July 2013 - 02:38 PM, said:

You are assuming none of the worlds the took had any manufacturing capability. Also mechs have ejection systems, you wont have to replace that many actual mechwarriors just their mechs. also i am fairly certain that clan AC5 ammo would not be too terribly different than IS AC5 ammo so when they take a world all they would have to do is change some of the dies at the factory and bam you can make as much ammo as you need and you don't have to ship it from the home worlds.

I'm fairly sure I've read in certain places that clan mechs did not have ejection systems as to eject from your mech was dishonourable. Don't quote me on that, though...

[CHH Badkarma]

Many old or failing warriors would disable the ejection system. They would rather die with what honor they had left than live through failure again

[SmithMPBT]

What are the Clans? This sounds Racist.

[dal10]

considering the way the automatic ejection system is described (ammo explosions cause you to eject) it is likely that there was no automatic way to eject in clan mechs. however the manual one was there.

[Stormwolf]

Morgan Kerensky, on 19 July 2013 - 08:26 PM, said:

I'm fairly sure I've read in certain places that clan mechs did not have ejection systems as to eject from your mech was dishonourable. Don't quote me on that, though...

Those certain places are clearly wrong, nearly all Clan mechs have ejection systems, the most notable example here is Aidan Pryde's ejection during his first trial of position.

At any rate, most Clan warriors will disable their automatic ejection system because they wish to die in battle instead of getting captured.

Edited by Stormwolf, 20 July 2013 - 05:43 AM.

[Gremlich Johns]

dal10, on 14 July 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

you are telling me that the inner sphere would LET them take factories? if we are going all out here (on both sides) then the IS would fight back in a scorched earth policy.the clan would gain debts not assets. they took the strongest clans and threw them at the inner sphere. your telling me that much smaller clans could be just as effective. and to put it simply, how are the clans going to attack the bottom of the inner sphere, are they going to go around? that would add a year or 2 to travel time. so some clan like blood spirit is going to attack unsupported on a realm 2-3 years away from home? because that supply line would be totally doable.

Hey!!!! Do not be hating on the Clan Blood Spirit. We bad, Uh huh.

Stormwolf, on 20 July 2013 - 05:42 AM, said:

At any rate, most Clan warriors will disable their automatic ejection system because they wish to die in battle instead of getting captured.

You presume much considering the Clan Fiction is so poorly written. preservation of the society is paramount. Rethink your point of view, please.

[Gyrok]

dal10, on 15 July 2013 - 07:05 PM, said:

ultra 5 and particularly lbx ammo is significantly different from standard ac/5 rounds.

as for heavy industry, the only 2 planets that the falcons took (as far as i can tell) that had any really heavy industry was twycross and sudeten (sudeten in particular actually had battlemech factories). the wolves had tamar and rasahague, as well as verthandi for material access and agromech factories (would take years of retooling to up that to omnimech capability.) as well as MAYBE (speculation on what would be here) Radstadt and gunzburg. (planets that seem to be important would likely have heavy factories (also note that the farther you get from a realm capital in general and terra in particular, the less high tech you tend to see) but not necessarily mech factories) the bears got alshain and the jags got marshdale. so out of the planets they took, there were (by reasonable speculation) 7 planets that likely had heavy industry. 4 of those would not be taken until the 5th wave of the invasion, so roughly 7-8 months. after that you would need extensive retooling even provided they were taken with 0 damage to the facility. at least a year for retooling to production of anything that is not tech one spheroid gear. (and even then this would be at best tech 2 star league gear, not clan omni gear. 5 years to a decade before they could completely refit a factory to produce omni gear, cause you would basically have to start from scratch.) if the IS fought back with any intelligence at all the only planets you would capture with intact factories would be twycross and rasalhague. cause if it was me the moment you guys hit sudeten those factories would be going down. same thing with alshain, marshdale, gunzburg and radstadt. i would make you guys have to start from scratch.

simply put, you could not take the factories for certain, though likely a good amount of light industry facilities would be taken (cause most mid sized planets have at least some industry for consumer goods. it is heavy duty hardware that is produced only on a few planets).

You are trying to rationalize fiction...it never works out well for people who try to do so, however, you are clearly making assumptions about a few things. I would like to help you clear that up some...

(1) You assume that the invasion that had been planned for YEARS, was poorly thought out and supplied on a whim. Reality dictates that the Clans, who were superior strategists in many respects, would have planned resupply in advance. As a tactician, you are going on offensive light years away, your invasion waves would have resupply waves between them as your waves left. Therefore you would not be waiting to call for resupply that would come much later, you would anticipate what you would need and have it coming to arrive at the expected interval it would be needed. The shortfall of this is that you would have to take what you planned to bring for resupply and anything else would need to be improvised. Retooling factories would never be any part of any equation for an invading force that had no intentions of long term occupation. Their goal was Terra, once they conquered that, retooling and rebuilding would be thought about. Otherwise they would simply be scavenging for materials to improvise things they needed.

(2) Each wave of the invasion would also bring it's own supplies up front, even the first wave. If you think the Clans flew light years to invade and showed up with just 'mechs and pilots...you're extremely naive, or have no experience in strategically, logistically, and tactically planning anything.

(3) You have to understand, news traveled slowly then, the Clans likely had 20+ worlds on the periphery captured before any of the word traveled to the heads of the respective governments. Additionally, they likely did not anticipate the threat was as grave as it was until the Clans had advanced much further. They would expect that, as in the past, it was simply some raiders or other group, and the militia level units would take care of the issue before it became something big enough they needed to deal with directly. It wasn't until large swaths of the Inner Sphere were decimated that they began to realize how seriously threatened they really were. Even then, it wasn't until the heads of their respective governments were shown the map with the invaded territory that they realized how hard they were hit.

(4) Toward the end of the invasion, the resupply situation was getting to the point it was more serious, however, through the beginning and middle waves, opposition was so poorly outfitted, poorly trained, and poorly manned, that there really was very little in terms of invasion cost. It is likely the Clans arrived into the more heavily fortified areas with little to no supply issues what-so-ever, however, it was the high cost of the war of attrition with the heavier fortified Inner Sphere worlds that depleted their supplies, mechs, and manpower. At the point this began to occur, you could expect that some clan leaders would have expected an easy march all the way to Terra based on the initial resistance being sparse and untrained. Though, once they got into the heart of the Inner Sphere, the resistance would have been more significant, and they would be glad they had accounted for the supplies they did on the way in.

Hopefully that clears up some of the confusion you have about the invasion.

Edited by Gyrok, 03 August 2013 - 10:30 AM.