54 replies to this topic

[Rofl]

Perhaps if generic location was based on attackers POV and orientation was based off targets POV during HSR checks it'd work.

[Training Instructor]

Sometimes I like it when people are twisting, as all my ppcs have a bit longer to cooldown before I send them into their CT again.

If you're taking sustained fire, tors twisting is great, or if you're trying to protect a weak side while you run to cover.

Against big alpha mechs though, they'll just wait for you to face them again so you can shoot, and they'll unload on your torso again.

Anyone ever torso twist their way out of getting a torso gutted by a 6 ppc stalker who actually knew what they were doing?

[Teralitha]

Remove double heat sinks problem solved.

[Blackadder]

Yes, under the current armor values, 40 points + of damge per strike, has created a system where every mech is an alpha striker for the most part. Those that do not follow this pattern, tend to be weaker then the opposing mechs. This does not mean that a DPS mech is not viable, its just not as good as a mech that can alpha strike, with a couple of exceptions, mostly mechs that have the capability to be both alpha strikers & dps mechs like the Triple UAC5 IM.

The problem is that the BT universe has immense power creep in it. PGI set up armor values and did initial balancing when SHS were put in the game. The addition of DHS, Artemis, ECM, numerous balance changes, have reinfrorced the always aim CT game that we see now more then ever, and its always been the best method of mech building potentially. Since armor is relatively light in terms of a damage vs armor ratio,alpha striking is reinforced because players learn to use terrain at all times, or die very quickly.

The tabletop universe had rules to offset the potential for alpha strike damage and prolong the battles, namely hit/miss, penalities for high heat, etc. Until PGI implements something that works along the same lines in MWO, nothing much is going to change.

[Rhent]

zztophat, on 27 April 2013 - 03:05 PM, said:

Very incorrect. I haven't played my light as of late out of fear that I would die as easily as I have been killing lights lately. Since the host state rewind lights literally cannot move fast enough to avoid my shooting them, before they gained a lot of survivability from the fact that half of the shots that were spot on missed anyway, now they all hit, especially at close range.

I haven't changed my dual guass jager since before the patch and before that patch getting circled by a light was a tense, dangerous encounter. Now it's suicide for the light mech.

Better light pilots have learned to adapt and are hitting and running or only engaging targets that are already distracted but the days of circle straffing an elephant are over, if you try that now you will eat whatever they are serving when you pass in front of them. That is unless the heavier mech pilot is terrible.

A strafing run is doing hit and run attacks on mechs. Circle Strafing is and has always been a horrible tactic used by poor pilots.

[Brunor]

danger uxo, on 28 April 2013 - 01:54 AM, said:

And no, Roadbeer, no matter how much you want it to be, torso twisting is not the answer; that's not to say that twisting isn't a valid tactic to spread damage, it absolutely is. However under the current pinpoint accuracy driven metagame it generally only provides minor benefit when facing a pinpoint alpha build. Also, had armor not been doubled a stock K2 or mech mounting an AC 20 would not be OP provided the canon method of applying damage to a target been used in MWO; i.e. the MechWarrior designates the target, selects the weapons to fire and chooses when to engage and the BattleMech's targeting and tracking (T&T) computer attempts to align all the weapons selected to fire on the target (which is the whole enemy BattleMech, not one specific point). The weapons fire strikes the target based on how well the BattleMech was able to get the weapons on target (or how 'solid' a lock the 'Mech has achieved if you will). In BattleTech game terms this is represented by the hit location charts which use the probability spread of 2d6 to determine damage to a particular hit location based on the likelihood of the BattleMech's T&T computer aligning to that location. How simulating that damage spread could be implemented in MWO is something that I think should be looked at, especially considering, as I pointed out above, BattleMech design (from a game design perspective) is based on the damage spread mechanic and is broken by the current pinpoint aiming/damage convergence system being used.

I would like something that spread damage around, as I remember it from tabletop, but I can see it being a difficult thing to get right. The simplest ways would be

• to make the weapons not always fire at the centre of the targeting recticule (which would frustrate many people);
  
• to allow a random chance that a successful shot is moved to an adjacent (random) hit-box.

To simulate the T&T computers, though, I guess the thing would be to allow an auto-hit (or near-certain hit) against a randomised body part (weighted towards the CT) so long as you pull the trigger with the enemy in the crosshair...but then comes the problem of deciding how well that should deal with unpredictible (or even predictible) enemy movement.

To conclude: I really like the idea of semi-random damage spread for historical reasons (and because my leg armour goes unused), but I can live without it until someone comes up with a truely inspired way to do it.

[danger uxo]

Brunor, on 28 April 2013 - 10:50 PM, said:

I would like something that spread damage around, as I remember it from tabletop, but I can see it being a difficult thing to get right. The simplest ways would be

• to make the weapons not always fire at the centre of the targeting recticule (which would frustrate many people);
  
• to allow a random chance that a successful shot is moved to an adjacent (random) hit-box.

To simulate the T&T computers, though, I guess the thing would be to allow an auto-hit (or near-certain hit) against a randomised body part (weighted towards the CT) so long as you pull the trigger with the enemy in the crosshair...but then comes the problem of deciding how well that should deal with unpredictible (or even predictible) enemy movement. To conclude: I really like the idea of semi-random damage spread for historical reasons (and because my leg armour goes unused), but I can live without it until someone comes up with a truely inspired way to do it.

The damage spread mechanic is one of the keys. BattleMech armor layout is directly linked to the damage spread mechanic and so when you eliminate the damage spread you throw balance off significantly and BattleMechs become much less the incredibly resilient combat units of BattleTech universe canon. Renthrak offered what I feel is a very interesting suggestion for what an effective damage spread system might look like in MWO in this thread.

The only change to Renthrak's idea I would make is to never allow 100% poinpoint convergence except on a shutdown mech. That's not to say you couldn't achieve pinpoint accuracy with a single weapon (as with the Atlas's single gauss in Renthrak's example), but pinpoint convergence with all weapons against an active 'Mech would be impossible. Additionally, as long as you have achieved even the basic 'lock' on an enemy 'Mech, every weapon you fired at that point (as a snap shot for instance) will hit the target somewhere.

[Lefteye Falconeer]

Without comparing too much Mechwarrior to Battletech, I am trying to go back into the roots of the game and see what's not working. Obviously, aiming is part of the problem as in the tabletop there was always room for the random factor which could somehow balance things and weapons better than PGI seem to be able to do.

But more than that, I think that one of the most important parts of the original concept is that you are not really supposed to shoot alphas after alphas, and managing your heat is not only important (it is in MWO too), but it is actually critical since your very first shot cause in most 'mechs even a single alpha strike was going to leave you panting for some time. Even more importantly, an alpha strike was more likely going to give you some 'debuffs', which is what is totally missing in MWO, so as long as your engine stays on you are free to shoot as much as you like, or much more than originally intended anyway. This is really not OK.

I remember before Double Heat Sinks came into play in MWO so many were complaining because they couldn't build "heat neutral" 'mechs, meaning a 'mech that can dish out stable dps with _all_ its weapons. Basically, a 'mech that could shoot alphas over alphas. Now while that should be absolutely possible by design (as long as you load little weaponry) the problem to me is that in order to reduce what was considered -from an action videogame perspective- an unfun mechanics (having to wait before firing again), they went too far and opened the gates for what we have now: the natural regulator that is heat has been nerfed to a point where overall damage is out of control, and boosting armours across the board wouldn't help while nerfing damage would break other things. Heat is the defining stat of Battletech and what makes it into a great strategy game, it's just myopic to nerf that aspect in MWO.

I think they should redesign the way heat is generated and dissipated, and put a real "cost" on unloading all your weapons at once, especially when they are the most powerful ones. That should be some sort of a final measure, and something you can only afford once in a while, not the norm. But yeah, we all know this is probably not gonna happen.

Edited by Lefteye, 29 April 2013 - 04:40 AM.

[Agent of Change]

The issue isn't the heat nor is the issue the damage, the problem has never been with either of those elements.

The true issue we are seeing is, and has always been, pinpoint auto-convergence at all ranges. I'm not advocating for "cone of fire" (though personally it wouldn't bother me all that much) because player skill should matter however manual setting a convergence range or not having a pinpoint convergence 100% of the time would go most of the way to resolving the majority of the issues not just with the current meta but with weapon balance in general.

[Anton Shiningstar]

Inkarnus, on 27 April 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

Well i cant say for sure but it feels wrong to just core an enemy that easy and fast if he isnt in
an assaultmech and even then its enough to let him worry if he peeks out again
best examples to this these are ac20 yagers ppc gauss poptards and so on
if we would have had some sort of equalizer to this the game would
be in my eyes more strategical like the change of srm flight patterns
so you need to hug thet enemy too get max damage on 1 part

Actually coring a small Mech with a 40-60 point Alpha is the standard in the games. Watching a Jenner crumple under 2 AC20 is a beautiful thing. It is how it should work.

[Inkarnus]

Anton Shiningstar, on 29 April 2013 - 05:51 AM, said:

Actually coring a small Mech with a 40-60 point Alpha is the standard in the games. Watching a Jenner crumple under 2 AC20 is a beautiful thing. It is how it should work.

Still its a bs mechanic rewarding bigger mechs over smallers for no reasons next mech tripod omnmonm 130 tons
ah yes rly i hope finally at some point pgi will make the pyramid face down wards and not upwards to theAssaults but looking at mc prices for assaults this wont happen ..... would solve so much issues

Edited by Inkarnus, 29 April 2013 - 06:43 AM.

[AlmightyAeng]

So...there have been DOZENS of threads about this topic...and sooner or later is almost always boils down to the issue of convergence.

Me? I'm NOT, repeat NOT in favor of introducing randomness into targeting systems. I think that in a piloting game, that's dumb...it's not a tabletop...we should be able to find OTHER mechanics. I don't count excessive cockpit shake and/or heat waves from overheating as 'introducing randomness' and it COULD help...but I think it would be vastly more effective with the following idea.

Instead of solving the convergence problem with a 'random' factor, why not distinguish between arms and torso-mounted weapons? Right now the torso and arms converge to a single point, in the center.

1) Continue to allow any arm-mounted weapons that have actuators to do so.
2) Any torso mounted weapons and/or arm-mounted weapons withOUT actuators cannot converge to the center. They converge on fixed points, displayed by a series of lines/ symbols, crosshairs, whatever, to the right and left of the center crosshair respectively.

This would cut down on the huge pinpoint alpha at a distance, but still allow for a huge alpha up close that's slighly more spread out compared to pinpoint. It makes sense to me that it'd work this way, still allow people to snipe, and quite possibly balance the issue. Thoughts?

[XSerjo]

Ghost Badger, on 29 April 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

...

This would cut down on the huge pinpoint alpha at a distance, but still allow for a huge alpha up close that's slighly more spread out compared to pinpoint. It makes sense to me that it'd work this way, still allow people to snipe, and quite possibly balance the issue. Thoughts?

I love this Idea, but devs are not interested in player's suggestions. Did they change anything with ECM, missile-spread? Nope. They are not interested in pools results - 3PV will be implemented, no matter what core players want.

Edited by XSerjo, 29 April 2013 - 08:35 AM.

[cyberFluke]

XSerjo, on 29 April 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

I love this Idea, but devs are not interested in player's suggestions. Did they change anything with ECM, missile-spread? Nope. They are not interested in pools results - 3PV will be implemented, no matter what core players want.

This. I'm starting to feel like nothing more than a doomsayer these days, but PGI's constant backtracking and blatant selling out is making it quite clear what they want from MWO. As much cash as possible. This has nothing to do with making a worthy MechWarrior Game, building the franchise back up or anything such similar. This is about money, pure and simple.

The 3PV is a prime example, the reasons given for it's implementation is "The Silent Majority".
By this they mean "The lowest Common Denominator" and "The players of other games we wish to poach".
Look at *any* of the simplifications they've made to the original plan/vision/design that they sold the founders on, making the game a lot more like other games of similar framework, all made to draw in as much money as possible.

Players that haven't played MWO yet but play World of Tanks, to cite an actual target audience. They want a piece of the pie they see Wargaming eating in particular. With that in mind, think back over all the changes you've seen since closed beta. Since wave 1 of beta, the entire project has gotten more and more beancounter driven.

As I said in another post though, it leaves a hole in the market for an actual mech simulation game that isn't a watered down shadow of it's former self, so not all bad.

[Haji1096]

There needs to be some type of consequence for overheating repeatedly, beyond shutting down for a period of time. It makes no sense for no penalty to exist once you break 100% on the heat scale.

Maybe link firing accuracy to overheating.

In the Alpha/sniper meta there is no reward for running a mech that runs cool, because you can't DPS enough to counter the burst damage of an alpha strike.

[Blackadder]

Agent of Change, on 29 April 2013 - 05:02 AM, said:

The issue isn't the heat nor is the issue the damage, the problem has never been with either of those elements.

The true issue we are seeing is, and has always been, pinpoint auto-convergence at all ranges. I'm not advocating for "cone of fire" (though personally it wouldn't bother me all that much) because player skill should matter however manual setting a convergence range or not having a pinpoint convergence 100% of the time would go most of the way to resolving the majority of the issues not just with the current meta but with weapon balance in general.

WIth respect, addressing only one aspect of balancing is what got us to this point in the first place. Saying heat is not an issue, is making a rather large assumption. Addressing convergence by itself, does nothing to resolve alpha strikes as the best way to play the game, all it really does it extend the encounter and increase defense. People will just poptart or LRM boat, and accept that x% of there shots will miss.

At a minimum both heat and convergence need to be addressed to resolve the underlying problems. Heat as it stands right now, is a non mechanic, and rarely has any real impact on gameplay, outside of putting some minor limitations on mech building.

[Skunk Wolf]

In TTBT you take 20 pts of damage, you have to make a piloting skill roll or fall on your butt.

Our pilots are eyeballs on sticks, immune to heat, shock and impact. Our mechs have perfect traction in all conditions.

That would not be a popular thing to deploy in more detail, I think. It would brutalize the lights further.

Probably why collisions and falling down are not in. Nobody would go light, it would be suicide. One moment of inattention and you skid against a building, crushing your right torso.

Only upside would be power-sliding Jenners.

[OneEyed Jack]

zztophat, on 27 April 2013 - 03:05 PM, said:

Better light pilots have learned to adapt and are hitting and running or only engaging targets that are already distracted but the days of circle straffing an elephant are over, if you try that now you will eat whatever they are serving when you pass in front of them. That is unless the heavier mech pilot is terrible.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Light mechs should not now, should not in the future, and never should have been considered Assault mech hunters. All mechs are not created equal, and there's no reason they should be. Light mechs have their own roles in the game, and they are not meant to be on the front lines.

Iacov, on 28 April 2013 - 12:48 AM, said:

40+ pinpoint damage out of nowhere from above 1000m is kinda hilarious and no fun
if they come up close, a 40+ alpha is quite okay...that's what target info is for

The only thing in the game that could pull that off would be a Stalker carrying 6xERPPC, which is such a disgustingly bad build as to not even be worth mentioning.

[xRaeder]

zztophat, on 27 April 2013 - 03:05 PM, said:

Very incorrect. I haven't played my light as of late out of fear that I would die as easily as I have been killing lights lately. Since the host state rewind lights literally cannot move fast enough to avoid my shooting them, before they gained a lot of survivability from the fact that half of the shots that were spot on missed anyway, now they all hit, especially at close range.

I haven't changed my dual guass jager since before the patch and before that patch getting circled by a light was a tense, dangerous encounter. Now it's suicide for the light mech.

Better light pilots have learned to adapt and are hitting and running or only engaging targets that are already distracted but the days of circle straffing an elephant are over, if you try that now you will eat whatever they are serving when you pass in front of them. That is unless the heavier mech pilot is terrible.

I told all you fools that fixing the netcode would make light mechs irrelevant. No one listened then and no one will listen now.

[Inkarnus]

xRaeder, on 01 May 2013 - 02:34 PM, said:

I told all you fools that fixing the netcode would make light mechs irrelevant. No one listened then and no one will listen now.

amen to that
We are playing not counterstrike with huge robots here
killing a mech from 1000 meters by jumping out of cover by 3 other mechs is a bs mechanic
same goes for killing another mech in 10 seconds even thou he is a an assault mech
this game needsd a bit slower to be enjoyable atm its just that i move more than
i fight and anybody saying that ppc boating is fun should stay with casual games
and not with a sim that atm gets watered down even further


this is how a fight should be

Edited by Inkarnus, 02 May 2013 - 12:44 PM.