53 replies to this topic

[Stargoat]

Davers, on 28 April 2013 - 07:44 PM, said:

I know. I keep following him from thread to thread trying to get him to explain himself.

Yeah but he won't /actually/ explain himself because it's not in his interest. It's pretty funny, though.

[Roadbeer]

Davers, on 28 April 2013 - 07:44 PM, said:

I know. I keep following him from thread to thread trying to get him to explain himself.

He won't do it in his own thread, why would you expect him to do it anywhere else.

Fail troll is fail.

[Corvus Antaka]

mediums are fine. hunchies engine size could be a little more generous "perhaps"

[Coralld]

Mediums are to big for their weight class as some here have pointed out. Hunchies, Cents, and Trebs are just as tall if not taller then some Heavies which makes no sense at all. Currently the Hunchy is just as tall as a Dragon, Cents are as tall as an Awesome, and Trebs are almost as tall as an Atlas. Clearly the Mediums need to be resized.

Also, PGI can possibly try changing the heat scale to higher dissipation with lower maximum heat as was mentioned in another thread. Mediums should benefit from this far better then Heavies or Assaults because Heavies and Assaults tend to mount more weapons, heavier ones, more powerful ones, and more heat demanding ones.
Or they can make it so that Lights and Mediums are naturally more heat efficient where as Heavies and Assaults are naturally less heat efficient.

[stjobe]

There's way too many heavies and assaults.

In the BT Universe (and yes, that's where this game plays out), the medium is the workhorse 'mech. It's the most common 'mech by far. Lights, cheap and versatile as they are, are the second most common. Assaults are downright rare (less than 10%), and heavies and assaults together make up for only about 30% of the 'mechs in existence.

Why is this? It's because the heavies and especially assaults are terrifyingly expensive to build, maintain, and run. Sure, they're also terrifying on the battlefield, but losing one in battle is a major economic blow to the faction fielding it.

But there is zero economy in MWO. Since the removal (right or wrong) of R&R, there's simply no downside at all to go for a heavier 'mech. There's even a substantial incentive for doing so; the chances of getting good XP/CB rewards increase dramatically with every weight class you go up.

So the math is pretty simple: With no downside and actual incentives for going heavier, of course there'll be too many heavy-weights. Too bad, so sad for us BT Universe aficionados, right? Or, for that matter, for us light and medium pilots.

It's to my mind a sorry state of affairs, and I hope PGI does something about it - either give the heavies and assaults a tangible downside (as they had in R&R), or increase the incentive of running lights and mediums.

I prefer the latter, but I'd be okay with the first as well. As someone who roughly never drives anything heavier than a medium, R&R doesn't bother me much, and I can see in-universe reasons to bring it back.

[Joseph Mallan]

Well, As I have several Alts I have kinda broke this mold St. I have my Assaults and Heavies or my Lyran, Heavy an Mediums for my FedSun. My future Clanner is a Medium pilot.

Personally I am not a light jock so no Lights for me.

[ArmageddonKnight]

The results are pirtty much as i expected though i voted Lights as oveplayed since u have to take into account the recent assualt v world events + highlander release, and the fact that matchmaking sorts teams out to be as equal as possible so u cant take a single match or even a handfull of matches as any indication of most played weight class.
Instead u have to look at how many different players (names) u come across over a long period. If u constantly come across the same dozen people playing assualts but always see different people playing lights, even though u see more assualt per match ..that actually means there are more people playing lights.

Anyway i think the inblances are down to many factors, though most stem from the intial Armor change PGI made, as weapons are balanced now on the dmg they do to current double armor.
Double armor across the board was a mistake. Instead they should have increased armor on a weight bassis.
So mechs from 0 to 40 tonns should have had there armor increased by only 50% from TT. (less armor than current)
Then 41 tonns to 59 tonns by 120% (little more than current double armor),
Then 60 tonns to 74 tonns 130% increase,
And finaly 75 tonns and up should have 180% increase.

This would have increased the gap in what each mech class can handle.
Assualts become much tougher and able to brawl for longer and be feared once again,
Heavies could also last a little longer,
Mediums wouldnt be so fragile as they currently are,
Lights would be more suseptable to being obliterated by heavy hits, unlike now where they can take Dual AC20 to the face and survive. A good pilot will use the insane speed and manuverability (withot crashing into things) to avoid the big hits and know when to attack, the bad ones will be blown apart.

The current double armor means Assualts dont have enough armor ..Lights have to much armor, and those inbetween them stradle the line or what is and is not enough. ATM heavies are more balanced armor wise than any other class.

Edited by ArmageddonKnight, 29 April 2013 - 09:36 AM.

[Trauglodyte]

Mediums were popular for a while for only one reason: there were 2 Light mechs (Ravens don't count cause there was no ECM at the time), 3 Med mechs, 2 Heavies (and everyone thinks the Dragon sucks), and 2 Assaults (an everyone thinks the Awesome sucks). So, your options were the extremely light Commando, the broken JJ/netcode Jenner, Cicada, Hunchy, Cent, Cat, and Atlas. Almost half of those options are Mediums.

Now, you have a fully functional Raven (only 1 viable variant), Spider (all variants are considered bad), Trebuchet, two new heavies and two new assaults. Plus, the design meta has shifted from laser and lrm heavy to PPC and ballistic heavy. That further crushes the Medium mechs because none of the Mediums can carry enough PPCs or Ballistics to make them dangerous while maintaining the speed that they need to stay alive. With the missile damage nerf, even people that enjoyed playing the SRMturion have shied away from it because you just don't get enough punch.

As someone said, why run a Medium when you can run a Heavy? And with the advantage of pipoint convergence and the decimating power of instantaneous damage to a single location versus spreading it out by way of lasers/missiles, why not take the chassis that can fit the most of those weapons possible?

[Fate 6]

Trauglodyte, on 29 April 2013 - 09:56 AM, said:

Mediums were popular for a while for only one reason: there were 2 Light mechs (Ravens don't count cause there was no ECM at the time), 3 Med mechs, 2 Heavies (and everyone thinks the Dragon sucks), and 2 Assaults (an everyone thinks the Awesome sucks). So, your options were the extremely light Commando, the broken JJ/netcode Jenner, Cicada, Hunchy, Cent, Cat, and Atlas. Almost half of those options are Mediums.

Now, you have a fully functional Raven (only 1 viable variant), Spider (all variants are considered bad), Trebuchet, two new heavies and two new assaults. Plus, the design meta has shifted from laser and lrm heavy to PPC and ballistic heavy. That further crushes the Medium mechs because none of the Mediums can carry enough PPCs or Ballistics to make them dangerous while maintaining the speed that they need to stay alive. With the missile damage nerf, even people that enjoyed playing the SRMturion have shied away from it because you just don't get enough punch.

As someone said, why run a Medium when you can run a Heavy? And with the advantage of pipoint convergence and the decimating power of instantaneous damage to a single location versus spreading it out by way of lasers/missiles, why not take the chassis that can fit the most of those weapons possible?

My CN9-A would like a word with you...

I get top 4 always, first place often.

[Trauglodyte]

Fate 6, on 29 April 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

My CN9-A would like a word with you...

I get top 4 always, first place often.

I'm not arguing against the fact that Mediums aren't useful. I drive a Cicada 95% of the time and a bad game for me is 300 damage. I'm just saying that Mediums were common, at one point in time, because the bulk of the mechs availabler WERE Mediums. Now, there is a great deal more choice and, with the changes in rewind, ballistic types of weapons are deadlier and slightly easier to use. So, that puts you in a position where a heavier mech with more weapons bring greater survivability and damage output. It also gives you the benefit of being much more forgiving when you make a mistake.

[Asmudius Heng]

Fate 6, on 29 April 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

My CN9-A would like a word with you...

I get top 4 always, first place often.

Would you do better in a heavy or assault though. How much of it is your skill compared to the mech build? Does the speed and agility of the medium outweigh the extra guns and armour of a heavier mech?

[Coralld]

Fate 6, on 29 April 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

My CN9-A would like a word with you...

I get top 4 always, first place often.

I don't want to sound like I am poo pooing you or the Cent, but I have come to the conclusion that Cents are bugged in the way they are able to zombi, taking far more punishment then they should, unless they are running an XL engine. I have faced against, have used, and have watched team mates take on Cents and as long as Cents are running STD engines they are able to take so much more damage its laughable. The problem appear to lie in the Cents center torso structure or something, as any other torso armor and structure are easily destroyed just like any other. Example, not to long ago I was in my dual Ultra5 Hunchi fighting a Cent, I ripped his torso apart, all that was left really was the center and left structure, but despite dumping 80 to 100 points of damage or more into the torso the Cent didn't go down as it was flashing on the paper doll but barely did anything and it was able to kill me with just 2 medium pulse lasers after I took out its AC weapon and SRMs.

Edited by Coralld, 30 April 2013 - 08:29 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Asmudius Heng, on 29 April 2013 - 06:15 PM, said:

Would you do better in a heavy or assault though. How much of it is your skill compared to the mech build? Does the speed and agility of the medium outweigh the extra guns and armour of a heavier mech?

Sometimes yes. I have more success with a Hunchback-4SP and Treb-K than in most Heavies. I chalk it up to the agility the Mediums have over the heavies.