206 replies to this topic

[keith]

MIKE25S, on 28 April 2013 - 05:35 PM, said:

I don't think the weapon balance is to terrible, one thing that I think would help is more diverse maps. A map can have and even balance of open space, city or canyon type terrain, not all huge football fields with a big hill thrown in here or there. Right now I feel like its mostly hills. Granted its still beta, but the maps we do have don't do giant mechs justice in the slightest.

agreed and add in the horrible capping too that. most of the caps are in closed. an object like that should be open so if a light decided to cap it can be destroyed from range.

[wolf74]

If the Damage is too high the easy fix for it is to SLOW the weapons downs. About the only two weapons that do not need a slowdown is the M.G. and Flamer.

Side Effects of slow weapons down:

• There heat foot print will be smaller. (AKA PPC and L-Laser will have to have their heat raised again)

The 2nd way to slow damage down would to do away with the Auto-Convergence system and place a Manual Control Convergence in its place. AKA You have to use your Mouse wheel or Joystick slide to Move the Convergence point to the right range, Only than can you truly say you are aiming the weapons.

Side Effects:

• Large groups of lasers will not all hit the same point all the time.
  
• Now I don’t mind giving players a -+5m auto-convergence for most weapons, +-25m for pulse weapons(Giving them their Bonus to hit back), and if you have targeting computers +-15m for weapon linked to the Targeting computers.

Cons:
Much harder for New players.
So I would suggest making a optional switch that give boost to

• C-Bill reward for Damage done
  
• Meta-Game Rep.

Edited by wolf74, 28 April 2013 - 05:53 PM.

[Nutlink]

I wish they would have stuck to stock mechs only, at least initially. It worked out for MWLL and MBT3025 without having the MW2/MW3/MW4 "cheese" builds we end up with here.

[jeffsw6]

It's fun to customize your mech. I don't think Alpha strikes are really the problem, either. Are big alphas really a problem in brawling? I have not seen many people gripe about boating any short-range weapons recently. No QQ threads about the dreaded HBK-4P and its 9 Medium Lasers, even though that is a very deadly mech.

All of the QQ is about extreme-range sniper cheese, and IMO, that's what really needs fixing. It can be done by simply adjusting the extreme-range weapons using the suggestions I included in my original post.

When SRMs are re-buffed perhaps we will see the splatcat's return. Nobody is very afraid of that mech right now.

[Teralitha]

I could of swore I wrote a reply in this topic already....


Oh well


Remove double heat sinks problem solved.

[Elizander]

I think that the best thing to do is have some heat penalties in place. I would've been fine with 4 PPCs but being able to efficiently fire 6 might be a bit too much. The thing I am looking at is to allow them to fire those 6 PPCs but the penalty for doing so and spiking heat up so high should be more than just cooling down.

I'm thinking some debuffs that last a minimum of (x) seconds once going past a certain heat level and it remains as long as heat is kept beyond that point. This debuff can be light at first, but can also be made either cumulative for multiple heat spikes to eventually disable a mech or the effect worsens the longer a mech remains past a certain heat level.

[Terror Teddy]

ssm, on 27 April 2013 - 03:56 PM, said:

It's not ATD, Bryan Ekman said something along those lines on Reddit AMA:

Q: Does PGI ever plan to balance weapons by changing their weight and/or damage? So far only missiles have had their damage changed throughout the beta and everything else except MGs have their TT damage values.
A: Possibly. We're looking at overall DPS right now, which is too high overall with the new HSR fixes. It's super risky, so we're not jumping in head first with any DMG changes yet.

Yea, we just HAD to up the damage on all the weapons earlier like the ac/2 getting a x20 modifier from it's base damage - but the MG is fiine, it's a crit seeker, see. ( even though it got x2 damage and armour ALSO got x2.

Yea, pet peeve of mine.

Seriously, damage too high? The only time i fear other weapons is when we are talking dual ac/20 or gauss, and even as a LIGHT mech i can get lucky and survive.

Personally i think armour values are to HIGH since it makes people do the extreme boat setups with max armour and a few powerful weapons and nothing else - then they just wade in blasting.

Lower armour to 1.5 and we will see even the alpha boats and extreme setups starting to get more careful. Who knows, people might fit more than LL and DHS on some of their assaults.

[MustrumRidcully]

Terror Teddy, on 28 April 2013 - 10:09 PM, said:

Yea, we just HAD to up the damage on all the weapons earlier like the ac/2 getting a x20 modifier from it's base damage - but the MG is fiine, it's a crit seeker, see. ( even though it got x2 damage and armour ALSO got x2.

Yea, pet peeve of mine.

Seriously, damage too high? The only time i fear other weapons is when we are talking dual ac/20 or gauss, and even as a LIGHT mech i can get lucky and survive.

Personally i think armour values are to HIGH since it makes people do the extreme boat setups with max armour and a few powerful weapons and nothing else - then they just wade in blasting.

Lower armour to 1.5 and we will see even the alpha boats and extreme setups starting to get more careful.

Being more careful will not manifest in running less alpha-strike focused builds. At worst it means no one dares to leave his cover, at best the winners of the game will be those with the best aim and the fastest fingers.

[Roadbuster]

I'd like them to try reducing heat threshold as described here (Fix Heat Threshold) before making changes to all the weapon values.

I agree that some ballistic weapons and missile systems need a few tweaks but energy weapons seem to be ballanced quite well at the moment.
The problem, in my opinion, is, that currently too many weapons can be fired in alpha strikes without risk.

Buffing heat dissipation, especially on DHS, but reducing the maximum threshold would force players to chainfire their weapons more often instead of alpha striking all the time.
It would make loadouts with different weapons more viable and increase your chances to survive running around a corner and facing a lance of opponents.

This would work for all heat intensive weapon systems like LRM20, SRM4/6, (ER-)PPC, ER-LL, AC2.
AC20 and Gauss, althout they can be very frustrating, seem to be ballanced because of the high weight and the limited ammo/t.

[Roadbuster]

Elizander, on 28 April 2013 - 09:48 PM, said:

I think that the best thing to do is have some heat penalties in place. I would've been fine with 4 PPCs but being able to efficiently fire 6 might be a bit too much. The thing I am looking at is to allow them to fire those 6 PPCs but the penalty for doing so and spiking heat up so high should be more than just cooling down. I'm thinking some debuffs that last a minimum of (x) seconds once going past a certain heat level and it remains as long as heat is kept beyond that point. This debuff can be light at first, but can also be made either cumulative for multiple heat spikes to eventually disable a mech or the effect worsens the longer a mech remains past a certain heat level.

I also like the idea of penalties for overheating.
Ammo explosions, destroyed heatsinks, lowered running and movement speeds,...

[Butane9000]

I don't see any ballistic damage changes coming with the exception of the LBX10.

I also don't see any energy damage changes coming or range changes. I expect it will be heat changes.

I do see a missile buff coming down the line, but how much I cannot be certain.

[Inkarnus]

Skyfaller, on 27 April 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

The problem is there is no heat penalty to alpha striking.

Alpha strike = firing more than 1 weapon at once.

There should be a linear heat penalty.. for every weapon fired at the same time adds +1 heat to each weapon being fired.

Aka fire a 6PPC stalker.. each PPC gets +6 heat penalty. That same stalker fires 2 PPC's at once then each has +2 heat penalty.

There should be a chain fire bonus. Chain fire should reduce heat cost from weapons fired by -1 .

and there you go. it solves boating, poptart sniping, alpha strike dominance and most problems this game has.

Basically the encouraged fire mode should be chain fire. This would change the nature of mech combat from massive damage to one spot all at once into a more fluid maneuver combat. Brawling and long range engagements become a matter of heat management, armor damage management, aiming and driving skills... not just the ability to rush in and snapshot alpha strikes.

this was actually at some point discussed but i thought it was already in game long time ago but it seems not

[irony1999]

As some posters have stated, if the problem is long range PPC or ER-LL boating, the only tweaks that will fix this are on the heat side. Either prevent alpha's that would shut down a mech from overheating, or introduce some penalties for running so hot.

[MaddMaxx]

Roadbuster, on 29 April 2013 - 01:52 AM, said:

I also like the idea of penalties for overheating.
Ammo explosions, destroyed heatsinks, lowered running and movement speeds,...

That is all well and good on paper, until you find that you have to neuter "your" ride such that assured self destruction, is not a viable option, even when your sweating the fight.

Add to that, the OP is using a biased point of view in an attempt to make changes that may be, ultimately, unrequired.

Quote

Do mechs die too quickly for the game to be fun? In many situations, yes.

Quote

If you get hit with 60 LRMs, that is not fun.

Players get Missile warnings, in plenty of time. Heed them.

Quote

If you get hit with 6 ERPPCs at 1100m and your CT is orange before you ever see an opponent, that is not fun.

Players lack of situational awareness. Playing with a Solo mentality, when there are 7 other friendlies about, is not a weapons imbalance issue. Besides, for anyone who has never actually built a 6 erPPC Stalker, try one, most will not be impressed with the performance curve.

Quote

If two AC/40 Jagermechs alpha you in the face as you cross over a ridge, that is not fun.

Again, simply a players lack of situational awareness. Playing with a Solo mentality, when there are 7 other friendlies about, is not a weapons imbalance issue.

[Teralitha]

MaddMaxx, on 29 April 2013 - 08:00 AM, said:

That is all well and good on paper, until you find that you have to neuter "your" ride such that assured self destruction, is not a viable option, even when your sweating the fight.
Add to that, the OP is using a biased point of view in an attempt to make changes that may be, ultimately, unrequired.

Players get Missile warnings, in plenty of time. Heed them.

Players lack of situational awareness. Playing with a Solo mentality, when there are 7 other friendlies about, is not a weapons imbalance issue. Besides, for anyone who has never actually built a 6 erPPC Stalker, try one, most will not be impressed with the performance curve.

Again, simply a players lack of situational awareness. Playing with a Solo mentality, when there are 7 other friendlies about, is not a weapons imbalance issue.

Sadly, todays gamer doesnt like a game of skill, and prefers a game of easy to which they are initially happy with, but then shortly abandon it for some other easy, pretty to look at game, rinse and repeat. While MWO will make some money designing the game for them, they wont be around for the long term and the game will die out in a year or 2 after release due to lack of interest. Its a design to fail.

Edited by Teralitha, 29 April 2013 - 08:14 AM.

[Gregore]

It is extremely hard for them to balance all weapons currently as everything they plan is not implemented yet.

From what it looks like to me they are monitoring weapons and any that stand out (LRM and SRM for instance) they will make adjustments on the fly. But as for the complete rebalance I think you will have to wait until they introduce all aspects of the game.

[ElLocoMarko]

DPS is too high. "Sustained DPS" is pathetically low. (long term DPS limited by heat)
Sustained DPS of any PPC boat is incredibly low... about 3.5 (reference K2 or Stalker).

If mechs were less instantaneously killable then we wouldn't spend all day trying to max alpha and core things in the minimal number of shots and we would instead focus on mixing hot and cold weapons.

I'm not going to make suggestions as I get the feeling after months of Beta that PGI does not crowd source intrinsic game changes. It is there baby, I understand. I also feel the crowd has had some darn fine ideas that should be put into play-testing for a week or two. We shall see...

[Lostdragon]

Roadbuster, on 29 April 2013 - 01:52 AM, said:

I also like the idea of penalties for overheating.
Ammo explosions, destroyed heatsinks, lowered running and movement speeds,...

Many people who play this game are opposed to randomness, so here is an idea along the same lines with no random result: Let high heat reduce the effectiveness of armor. Maybe every 1% heat over 50% reduces your armor effectiveness by 0.5% so at 100% heat threshold you have effectively 25% less armor.

The numbers could be adjusted of course, maybe it makes sense not to have the penalty until 75% of max heat and it reduces armor by 25% there and another 25% at max heat.

This would dramatically alter the alpha strike dynamic and make chainfire a more appealing option in many circumstances. You can still alpha to get huge damage, but you make yourself more vulnerable so you would not want to alpha over and over, especially in a brawl. This also has the side effect of making brawling a hard counter to snipers, who currently can brawl as well or better than mechs set up for that role.

[H Seldon]

I play Atlas and Highlander exclusively now. Reducing armor would be bad. I'd say about 99% of the time I die from CT, and that's with lots of torso twisting. On the Atlas I will lose the RT sometimes but don't die of course. On the highlander I ended up putting a XL in. Have died twice from losing side torso and twice from being legged. Every other time CT, which is why I went XL, worth the risk.

With the high damage hits, why shoot at the arms or side torso, quicker to just hit the CT (it's a big easy target). If anything I think the Assault and heavies should see side torso and CT armor increase. They move slow anyway, so will still be vulnerable to sniper fire but would be able to shrug some of it off. It's the whole risk/reward system. Arms have less armor, might make more sense to shoot arms off. But right now arms don't have much less armor than center torso and more armor than side torsos.

It just seems like there is less thought required to play now unlike closed beta.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

I don't know, I did a group of 4 man drops on Saturday night, it's a rarity for me.

We had a guy in a 6 PPC stalker. And it was amazing what he'd do. Due to all the ancillary damage from the rest of the team, he'd just point, shoot and explode people. Then he'd shut down for a few seconds, pop back up and do it again.

His aim was really good too.

We were all in teamspeaking having a good ol' time joking around about it. But it came across as so funky given the scope of Battletech/Mechwarrior.

Edit: And I realize the 6 PPC stalker isn't the best config, it's just what he was doing.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 29 April 2013 - 09:10 AM.