43 replies to this topic

[Butane9000]

Here's my take.

Make LRMs do 1 damage a piece.

Make SRMs/SSRMs do 2 damage a piece.

Make LRMs fly to their targets faster (probably an additional 25% speed increase).

Make the Artemis upgrade double the speed bonus (for a total of 50% increase).

[MaddMaxx]

MQ9 Reaper Predator Drone, on 28 April 2013 - 11:57 PM, said:

another fun fact..
AMS does 2 damage. while a single lrm does 0.7
in game however AMS away 2 damage from the incoming missiles.
the tiny AMS bullets don't really have to "hit"
before, the damage of a single l rm was 2.
and ams "ate" 2 misiles from your wave.

now however AMS takes away to 4 missiles from each wave.
meaning 15 tube x4 lrm10 in chain fire mode gets reduced to quad lrm5.
however, there is a virtual delay in the AMS system.
if your cloud is thick enough AMS may end up eating less missiles.
if your target is grouped..however

What? AMS only attacks missiles that venture inside a 90m range of your Mech, or pass over it inside of 200m. The damage they do to their target object has absolutely no bearing on what damage an LRM does.

An AMS system fires 30 rounds/sec, of 2 damage each, at targets that have 10 health each, thus it requires that 5 of the 30 hit to take down a missile,or the max out of a cluster is 6. That is why LRM5's from Long range often have little effect, 10's are reduced heavily, whereas the 15's (9 get through) and 20's (14 get through) get many more Missiles through (without further obstruction issues ofc).

So, yes, an AMS umbrella can be created but to use it to its max effect the Mechs should all be within 90m of each other, such that no one unit is outside any others 90m AMS range.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 29 April 2013 - 09:23 AM.

[Ransack]

should the damage be buffed ? yes

put it back where it was. remove or lessen the splash damage effect

should lrm be faster?yes

There is no reason not to up the speed.

should lrm weight less ? no

A ton is a ton is a ton. the number of missiles per ton of ammo is perfect
should lrm have beter guidance? no

The guidance is fine, even with the glitches.

Your world, my view.

[Maliconus]

The Problem is ...This poll will be ignored. Like every other thread/Poll on LRM's and/or SRM's

[Void Angel]

MQ9 Reaper Predator Drone, on 29 April 2013 - 12:04 AM, said:

sadly in game that doesn't work like intended.
there is indeed a minor AoE effect but this is exactly the same amount as "collision damage"
its non existent, even though your legs may end up yellow it doesn't take any damage.
go out with a 1 armor in your legs and then jump from a hill.

Actually, that's incorrect. Splash damage is working, or you wouldn't be getting from ~0.939-0.950 damage per missile; you'd be getting 0.7. I went over this...

MaddMaxx, on 29 April 2013 - 09:21 AM, said:

What? AMS only attacks missiles that venture inside a 90m range of your Mech, or pass over it inside of 200m. The damage they do to their target object has absolutely no bearing on what damage an LRM does.

An AMS system fires 30 rounds/sec, of 2 damage each, at targets that have 10 health each, thus it requires that 5 of the 30 hit to take down a missile,or the max out of a cluster is 6. That is why LRM5's from Long range often have little effect, 10's are reduced heavily, whereas the 15's (9 get through) and 20's (14 get through) get many more Missiles through (without further obstruction issues ofc).

So, yes, an AMS umbrella can be created but to use it to its max effect the Mechs should all be within 90m of each other, such that no one unit is outside any others 90m AMS range.

A good explanation, but I've seen my AMS engage at what I'm sure was longer than 90m - might be wrong, though.

Maliconus, on 29 April 2013 - 09:56 AM, said:

The Problem is ...This poll will be ignored. Like every other thread/Poll on LRM's and/or SRM's

/sigh Not really. I know for a fact that devs read posts like this one because I have seen them on the "reading this topic" field of posts I'm responding to.

[MaddMaxx]

Void Angel, on 29 April 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

Actually, that's incorrect. Splash damage is working, or you wouldn't be getting from ~0.939-0.950 damage per missile; you'd be getting 0.7. I went over this...

.7 x .4 splash (if in affect) = .98

Quote

A good explanation, but I've seen my AMS engage at what I'm sure was longer than 90m - might be wrong, though.

As noted, minRange="0" longRange="90.0" maxRange="200.0". As with all weapons, the damage drop off is linear, so at 200m they do zero damage. Given they only do 2 points of damage out to 90m, say @ 155m they only do 1pt. (sorry, guessing Maths ), so then it will take double the # of AMS rounds to kill a Missile. That is why many want to be able to Toggle the AMS systems themselves, save ammo.

[stjobe]

AFAIK, splash damage is capped at 40%, but that's per hit location in the splash radius.

Before the emergency fix, splash damage did the full direct damage to every hitbox in the (then 4m) radius.

What they changed was that they
* Shrunk the radius to 1.8m (1.3m for SRMs)
* Capped the damage to 40% (0.28 for LRMs, 0.6 for SRMs)
* Made the damage drop of the further from the impact point the hitbox in question was, to zero 1.81m from the impact point.

So a LRM whose splash radius intersects three hitboxes will do somewhere between 0.7 (only direct damage) and 1.9 (0.7 + 3x0.4 damage), depending on how close together those hitboxes are.

This is why splash damage has to go. It's impossible to balance the weapon when a Commando takes more damage from a single LRM than an Atlas. Make them effective against the Atlas and they'll murder the Commando. Make them not murder the Commando and they'll do squat to the Atlas.

If missiles had no splash, their direct damage could be buffed to useful levels, and their spread could be used to balance them against different targets.

Edited by stjobe, 29 April 2013 - 10:24 AM.

[Void Angel]

MaddMaxx, on 29 April 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

.7 x .4 splash (if in affect) = .98



As noted, minRange="0" longRange="90.0" maxRange="200.0". As with all weapons, the damage drop off is linear, so at 200m they do zero damage. Given they only do 2 points of damage out to 90m, say @ 155m they only do 1pt. (sorry, guessing Maths ), so then it will take double the # of AMS rounds to kill a Missile. That is why many want to be able to Toggle the AMS systems themselves, save ammo.

Duuur, reading is hard - thanks for the clarification. There's too much blood in my caffeine system...

[Void Angel]

MrVop, on 29 April 2013 - 06:37 AM, said:

You took me to math class before and schooled the **** out of me. Edit: Spelling is hard.

Well, so is math; especially when I'm reading it late at night, apparently - I screwed up that explanation before; the reality is actually simpler.

MaddMaxx, on 29 April 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

.7 x .4 splash (if in affect) = .98

Not quite; in practice, you will neverget the full splash damge - it scales with the distance from the target. However, my explanation was incorrect on that point anyway. My apologies, and here is the corrected explanation:

• First, that 0.7 damage is done to whatever location is struck.
  
• Then, the game draws a radius around the point of impact.
  
• Next, it calculates what proportion the distance to any secondary location(s) (other than the one initially struck) which lie within its splash radius.
  
• Finally, a proportion of weapon damage (.7 x 40%-0%) is dealt to secondary location(s) based on how far away from the point of impact they are (this works like weapon damage falloff past max range.)

Since damage depends on so many chaotic factors, such as the angle of impact, size and shape of hitboxes, etc, it is impossible to theorycraft real damage numbers from this information - however, players with whom I've spoken who have analyzed their LRM stats from since the hotfix report damage/missile ranging from 0.939 to 0.950.

Edited by Void Angel, 29 April 2013 - 12:03 PM.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

I just hope that they make one change. Not LRM Damage + Flight Path + travel speed + Missile doors + Heat + whatever other random thing that will make LRMs overpowered again.

Just one change per patch. The shotgun approach to game balance isn't working.

[Zerberus]

Neverfar, on 29 April 2013 - 12:10 PM, said:

The problem is the "skill" cultists want every and all guided weapons to be nerfed into oblivion (they already did this to LRMs, streaks are next) because they want this to be Counterstrike Robot Edition.

I´m glad I`m not the only one that has seen this whole clusterf*** that originally started way ago with "buff the PPC" as "buff the AWP" round 2.

And just like back then, I now take that weapon with me and go traveling instead of camping, just to show them that w/o skill any weapon can kill you, no matter how 1337 you believe your üb3r5n1p0r skillz are

It`s the inevitable thing that happens when kids grow up without decent schools watching old arnie movies, and thinking they`re the cheddar just because their teeth are yellowing. They see a game with a gun, say "the biggest gun has to be the best and I`m the best", and rage when people that know what they doing own them hard because their Illusions are just that, illusions. So they come to forums screaming "Nerf this, nerf that, but please don`t hit ME with the nerfbat."

Believing you`re Vasiliy Zaitsev is great. But don`t for one second thing that any grunt who has actually heard of "move and cover" isn`t capable of sneaking up on your tunnel-visioned amateur *** and slitting your throat.

The problem isnt that his knife is OP, the problem is that you suck and can`t admit it... so you start a thread raginf about how OP th knife is and how it should be removed from the game..... and the entire forum has a good belly laugh at your expense.


And it`s essentially the exact same thing here, people that can`t be arsed to play the game more than standing still and turreting from some presumed "safe" spot get owned by a light that takes 5 steps and moves behind them, come to the forums, and rage about ECM, streaks, and lights. They would easily call for a PPC buff to a hitscan weapon in the same breath if they didn`t know that almost everybody already considers it OP currently.

Not saying its only or primarily pre-pubescent players, but for the most part it doesn`t seem to be the ones with 2 decades or more of gaming or military experience and a certain level of maturity and rhetorical prowess..... and I don`t think that that is purely coincidental

Edited by Zerberus, 29 April 2013 - 12:35 PM.

[MrVop]

Zerberus, on 29 April 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

I´m glad I`m not the only one that has seen this whole clusterf*** that originally started way ago with "buff the PPC" as "buff the AWP" round 2.

And just like back then, I now take that weapon with me and go traveling instead of camping, just to show them that w/o skill any weapon can kill you, no matter how 1337 you believe your üb3r5n1p0r skillz are

It`s the inevitable thing that happens when kids grow up without decent schools watching old arnie movies, and thinking they`re the cheddar just because their teeth are yellowing. They see a game with a gun, say "the biggest gun has to be the best and I`m the best", and rage when people that know what they doing own them hard because their Illusions are just that, illusions. So they come to forums screaming "Nerf this, nerf that, but please don`t hit ME with the nerfbat."

Believing you`re Vasiliy Zaitsev is great. But don`t for one second thing that any grunt who has actually heard of "move and cover" isn`t capable of sneaking up on your tunnel-visioned amateur *** and slitting your throat.

The problem isnt that his knife is OP, the problem is that you suck and can`t admit it... so you start a thread raginf about how OP th knife is and how it should be removed from the game..... and the entire forum has a good belly laugh at your expense.


And it`s essentially the exact same thing here, people that can`t be arsed to play the game more than standing still and turreting from some presumed "safe" spot get owned by a light that takes 5 steps and moves behind them, come to the forums, and rage about ECM, streaks, and lights. They would easily call for a PPC buff to a hitscan weapon in the same breath if they didn`t know that almost everybody already considers it OP currently.

Not saying its only or primarily pre-pubescent players, but for the most part it doesn`t seem to be the ones with 2 decades or more of gaming or military experience and a certain level of maturity and rhetorical prowess..... and I don`t think that that is purely coincidental

What the ****... did i just read?
Could you paraphrase your points for us?

[Void Angel]

Oooh! Oooh, let me!

• Buffing the PPC is like buffing the Arctic Warfare Magnum/Police - the premier sniper rifle in Counterstrike.
  
• He uses the ERPPC by moving around instead of sniping, to prove that any weapon can kill you if you are bad - including the flavor of the month OP weapon of choice.
  
• Those darned kids these days are uneducated and unable to separate Schwarzenegger movies from real life, so they think that bigger guns are always better, and get angry when real men beat them with other guns.
  
• Players who snipe aren't any good; they just tunnel vision and turret, so real men can sneak up on them and kill them.
  
• Then they get mad and complain, nonsensically, about ECM, Streaks, and Lights, even though Streak complaints are primarily made BY lights, and ECM is the favorite target of LRM users. (apparently this complaining is why the ERPPC got buffed, and not because it was a clearly inferior weapon system, but this is not actually stated.)
  
• The spoiled kiddies want to make the ERPPC a hitscan weapon (like lasers,) but are totally silent on this issue because they know they won't get away with asking for it. This is not a straw man argument from silence, because nothing.
  
• He's "not saying" it's only or even mostly the kiddies, even though he just did (see point three,) but it's not the real men who were in the Armed Forces, and whose maturity and rhetorical skills set them apart - such that people who read their posts have to ask what the heck they're talking about.

Hope this helps!

Edited by Void Angel, 29 April 2013 - 04:49 PM.

[MQ9 Reaper Predator Drone]

Butane9000, on 29 April 2013 - 06:42 AM, said:

Here's my take.

Make LRMs do 1 damage a piece.

Make SRMs/SSRMs do 2 damage a piece.

Make LRMs fly to their targets faster (probably an additional 25% speed increase).

Make the Artemis upgrade double the speed bonus (for a total of 50% increase).

exactly, this would make lrm somewhat able to compete as a weapon again

[Karl Streiger]

Don't make the mistake to switch 2 or more values at the same time:

I think make LRMs faster for the beginning is enough.

AFAIK the Splah Damage will be increased soon, too.

[Bloody Moon]

How about simply removing their hardcounter effect from ECM while increasing the general lock-on time?

Then more accurate brainstorming could take place about damage and speed...

Edited by Bloody Moon, 30 April 2013 - 05:03 AM.

[MrZakalwe]

Increase the speed of LRMs. double their damage, increase their tracking and make them weigh half as much and they will still be rendered useless by layered ECMs.

One problem at a time.

[ArmageddonKnight]

I voted yes on dmg that its. the rest no.

PGI are stil lsorting out splash dmg. Once its all fixed and LRM's r not hitting CT to much and also going through and hitting rear armor.. then DMG can go up from the current 0.7.
To what ? ..well INCLUDING splash, probably 1.2 per missle.
Which wil llikely mean 0.9dmg + 0.3 splash.

Once they have that sorted they need to fix AMS at the same time. They cant do one wihtout the other. AMS is currently OP vs up to 10 missiles but usless vs a boat launching 50+ missles.

Anyway ..yes LRM's r ****** now, but PGI is working on it.

Edited by ArmageddonKnight, 30 April 2013 - 06:20 AM.

[Kitane]

Among many things, make them not affected by Guardian ECM? The system that is not supposed to have any effect on LRMs and SSRMs?

[MQ9 Reaper Predator Drone]

While i agree ecm is overpowered.
i don't have a particular problem with it.
Tag+adv. target decay helps a lot !
but then again, 4 seconds lock on for a missile that takes 20 seconds to arive..