475 replies to this topic

[gregsolidus]

Its already an uphill battle against folks who want it to be a digital recreation of TT.I for one don't understand why we're having this conversation:the developers will do what they did with MW 1-4 and approximate rules that work,retool rules that kinda do,and ignore those that don't (I'm looking at you "refits are hard to do").That's how you make a good video game.

[Creel]

devil man, on 08 November 2011 - 02:29 PM, said:

(not TT, folks...PnP...get with the proper jargon. It's "Pencil and Paper")

Not to pick a nit but...

PnP RPGs and TT wargames are slightly separate in my mind. Yes, BTech and MW exist as Pen and Paper games, but for me it's all about the TableTop miniature rules. When you discard the hex maps and start building terrain to scale and playing on 4'x8' gaming tables on a regimental combat level, you have left the realm of PnP.

[TheRulesLawyer]

gregsolidus, on 08 November 2011 - 03:05 PM, said:

Its already an uphill battle against folks who want it to be a digital recreation of TT.I for one don't understand why we're having this conversation:the developers will do what they did with MW 1-4 and approximate rules that work,retool rules that kinda do,and ignore those that don't (I'm looking at you "refits are hard to do").That's how you make a good video game.

Sure. But none of them has been a satisfactory multi-player experience yet. I think ultimately we all want a fun game that works well and is balanced. Trouble is the "pro sim" guys come from a place that is poorly balanced. "pro TT" guys seem to mostly want to make sure the balance mechanisms that work well don't get tossed out just for the sake of change. I don't really see anyone suggesting that we actually simply designate targets and have the computer roll d6 to see if you it. That's nonsense.

[gregsolidus]

But they are suggesting obtrusive aiming mechanics,steep death penalties,and the near removal of customization because they can't seem to get past the fact that the advanced ruleset,while great for role playing and extended campaigns,really doesn't lend itself for being the foundation of a video game.No one is saying that the source material should be ignored but it's sad to see so many people can't draw the line between accuracy and fun and see certain rules just don't work here.

[TheForce]

gregsolidus, on 08 November 2011 - 03:20 PM, said:

it's sad to see so many people can't draw the line between accuracy and fun and see certain rules just don't work here.

Pinpoint accuracy, grouped lasers, and 2 shots killing a mech has never been fun for me. If MW4 had a random damage for grouped fire, and the ability to aim one weapon with pinpoint accuracy, and i felt that i was acting out a battle that I read about in a novel...I would still be playing it today.

Edited by theforce, 08 November 2011 - 03:37 PM.

[Amechwarrior]

gregsolidus, on 08 November 2011 - 03:20 PM, said:

But they are suggesting obtrusive aiming mechanics,steep death penalties,and the near removal of customization because they can't seem to get past the fact that the advanced ruleset,while great for role playing and extended campaigns,really doesn't lend itself for being the foundation of a video game.No one is saying that the source material should be ignored but it's sad to see so many people can't draw the line between accuracy and fun and see certain rules just don't work here.

You know what else had (at the time) obtrusive aiming mechanics,steep death penalties,and the near removal of weapons on maps. Counter-Strike. Arguably the founder of our modern war style FPS games changed the rules for a more hardcore player group. No longer were weapons laying around in the same spot every match like UT or Quake. No more power-ups like quad damage and no respawn. It also moved away from the pin-point aiming of earlier games and gave a probabilistic aiming mechanic that, at the time was new and unique. Would anyone even dare to suggest that CS did badly? Some might say it was not 'fun' but it was popular and you cannot argue that. I do not see why these kinds of game mechanics cannot also be applied to a franchise that already has a good analoge of these mechanics in its foundational set of rules.

[Halfinax]

/\/\/\/\ I think he was referring more to the "Your Mech is destroyed buy a new one, and if it's damaged you have to spend lots of money and are locked out of playing for 24 hours" people. Which is unacceptable.

I agree that pinpoint accuracy is an issue, but I think if the devs just add some jostle to the mech, and use direct fire instead of hitscan that issue goes away altogether.

I also think letting people throw whatever they want into their mech is horriblely imbalancing in a strictly multiplayer game. I advocate the use canon mechs + variants because most are reasonable balanced around a role.

The people suggesting steep death mechanics aren't about having fun obviously, and I disagree with them whole heartedly.

I guess my point is don't lump all the TT fans together. Many of us can draw distinctions between staying true to the TT and what would be fun and balanced in a game where you are lumbering about in 50 tons of armor and weapons on legs.

Edited by halfinax, 08 November 2011 - 03:45 PM.

[TheForce]

halfinax, on 08 November 2011 - 03:43 PM, said:

I agree that pinpoint accuracy is an issue, but I think if the devs just add some jostle to the mech, and use direct fire instead of hitscan that issue goes away altogether.

Grouped fire AND pinpoint accuracy is the issue, and it won't go away with jostle...4 med lasers will still be just as powerful as an AC20...

1 AC20: range 270 meters, ammo 5, tonnage 15, damage 20, heat 7
4 Med. Lasers: range 270 meters, ammo unlimited, tonnage 4, damage 20, heat 12
Why am i gonna waste 16 tons on an AC20 when I can load up med lasers, heat sinks, more armor, and do more damage?

Edited by theforce, 08 November 2011 - 03:49 PM.

[gregsolidus]

"I also think letting people throw whatever they want into their mech is horriblely imbalancing in a strictly multiplayer game. I advocate the use canon mechs + variants because most are reasonable balanced around a role."
I don't quite follow,could you elaborate?

[TheForce]

is it getting hot in here...or is it just me

[Halfinax]

theforce, on 08 November 2011 - 03:46 PM, said:

Grouped fire AND pinpoint accuracy is the issue, and it won't go away with jostle...4 med lasers will still be just as powerful as an AC20...

1 AC20: range 270 meters, ammo 5, tonnage 15, damage 20, heat 7
4 Med. Lasers: range 270 meters, ammo unlimited, tonnage 4, damage 20, heat 12
Why am i gonna waste 16 tons on an AC20 when I can load up med lasers, heat sinks, more armor, and do more damage?

This problem persists in the TT game too, and the answer is heat management. Also if as I suggested and add jostle AND direct fire then accuracy is inherently reduced if you are moving, or the target is moving. Hitting with all 4 medium lasers becomes more difficult.

gregsolidus, on 08 November 2011 - 03:48 PM, said:

"I also think letting people throw whatever they want into their mech is horriblely imbalancing in a strictly multiplayer game. I advocate the use canon mechs + variants because most are reasonable balanced around a role."
I don't quite follow,could you elaborate?

I think letting people do heavy customization of weapons, armor, and heatsinks to their 'Mechs makes a purely multiplayer game imbalanced as in only one or two builds become valid.

[gregsolidus]

theforce, on 08 November 2011 - 03:36 PM, said:

Pinpoint accuracy, grouped lasers, and 2 shots killing a mech has never been fun for me. If MW4 had a random damage for grouped fire, and the ability to aim one weapon with pinpoint accuracy, and i felt that i was acting out a battle that I read about in a novel...I would still be playing it today.

Wouldn't it be odd to see 3 lasers hit three completely different areas when they're fired at once? (I'm assuming you mean to represent the area hit roll when you say random damage)

[Amechwarrior]

gregsolidus, on 08 November 2011 - 03:48 PM, said:

"I also think letting people throw whatever they want into their mech is horriblely imbalancing in a strictly multiplayer game. I advocate the use canon mechs + variants because most are reasonable balanced around a role."
I don't quite follow,could you elaborate?

Each 'mech design has many slightly different variants that the factories in the universe produce. Here are some from sarna.net

Atlas
Catapult
Hunchback

You can see how some of these variants can be drastically different from the base model, this can give us a ton of variety of configurations while not letting us customize to prevent abusive boating. It allows the developers to pick and choose what variants to add to fill in gaps and make sure things are balanced.

[gregsolidus]

halfinax, on 08 November 2011 - 03:56 PM, said:

I think letting people do heavy customization of weapons, armor, and heatsinks to their 'Mechs makes a purely multiplayer game imbalanced as in only one or two builds become valid.

That logic is flawed,by removing customization you just make minmaxers select one or two type of variants of a mech leading to mirror matches of Bushwhackers,Ravens,and Atlases.The system is flawed and needs to be fixed, not axed.

[TheForce]

halfinax, on 08 November 2011 - 03:56 PM, said:

This problem persists in the TT game too, and the answer is heat management. Also if as I suggested and add jostle AND direct fire then accuracy is inherently reduced if you are moving, or the target is moving. Hitting with all 4 medium lasers becomes more difficult.

OK maybe i'm out of date. In the TT game I know of from the 80s, you rolled to hit for each weapon you fired. So if I fire 4 med lasers, I'm rolling 4 times. If i fire my AC20, i'm rolling once. This means my AC20 is guaranteed to do 20 points of damage to one location of the mech, but my med lasers aren't guaranteed to hit the same location.

Jostle doesn't fix grouped fire and pinpoint accuracy...lets say you're aiming for the head, but your mech jostles and you hit the arm...that's still 20 points of concentrated damage to the arm, the equivalent of an AC20.

Edited by theforce, 08 November 2011 - 04:07 PM.

[TheForce]

gregsolidus, on 08 November 2011 - 03:57 PM, said:

Wouldn't it be odd to see 3 lasers hit three completely different areas when they're fired at once? (I'm assuming you mean to represent the area hit roll when you say random damage)

It sure would because every other MechWarrior game hasn't been able to simulate the battletech universe properly.

[gregsolidus]

Amechwarrior, on 08 November 2011 - 03:58 PM, said:

Each 'mech design has many slightly different variants that the factories in the universe produce. Here are some from sarna.net

Atlas
Catapult
Hunchback

You can see how some of these variants can be drastically different from the base model, this can give us a ton of variety of configurations while not letting us customize to prevent abusive boating. It allows the developers to pick and choose what variants to add to fill in gaps and make sure things are balanced.

I'm aware of variants and I din't think they'll go in that direction.

[Amechwarrior]

halfinax, on 08 November 2011 - 03:56 PM, said:

This problem persists in the TT game too, and the answer is heat management. Also if as I suggested and add jostle AND direct fire then accuracy is inherently reduced if you are moving, or the target is moving. Hitting with all 4 medium lasers becomes more difficult.

The answer for a real time first person sim is not heat management. His example only takes up 4 tons, that leaves 11 tons before he matches the weight of the AC20. That 11 tons could be put right into 11 double heatsinks, far and away more the nessicary for keep 4 medium laser running cool forever. The real reason heat management is not the answer is because of alpha striking. If I can accurately put all my weapons on a leg or head of a target, I only really need to pull the trigger once or twice. So I might be running super hot, or even shut down. But I won. That is what it boils down to, he is dead, I am not. Accurate alpha strikes are the reason boating is such a better option then anything else.

[gregsolidus]

theforce, on 08 November 2011 - 04:05 PM, said:

It sure would because every other MechWarrior game hasn't been able to simulate the battletech universe properly.

Yeah... I don't think it would be cool to aim dead center and see my laser hit the left leg,that just doesn't make alot of visual or immersive sense.

[TheForce]

gregsolidus, on 08 November 2011 - 04:07 PM, said:

Yeah... I don't think it would be cool to aim dead center and see my laser hit the left leg,that just doesn't make alot of visual or immersive sense.

Fair enough...so how can they make an AC20 not useless compared to grouped lasers?

I guess they could make the recycle rate for med lasers 1 second and do .5 points of damage, then you'd have to fire them every second and could potentially miss the target/same area more. Didn't they already try this in MW4?

Edited by theforce, 08 November 2011 - 04:13 PM.