24 replies to this topic

[William Denton]

Hi guys,

Since Host-State-Rewind is in place for ballistic weapons I wonder how the loadout and the tactic of the average light mech has changed.
First of all the Raven 3L and light mechs in general seem to become much rarer. Why?
The main reason may sound very obvious but has big consequences:

Lights in the open die fast. Much faster than ever before.

We all noticed that the popular high-burst-damage mechs (poptard anyone?) are very capable of legging a light mech with ease. Well maybe not with ease but fast enough to punish anyone who is gives them the time to aim properly.
This leads to a change in weapons-loadout for the light mechs. The tipical "circle and poke the elephant till he dies"-playstyle with good heat-efficiency, extremly high speed and good DPS weapons is no more the apex off light gameplay.

So what will be the next big thing for light mech pilots?

My bet would be a jump-capable mech which runs around 100 - 120kph with MPL and SRMs/SSRM as soon as missile-damage is back to normal. Good for ambushes and hit and run/hide attacks and bad in longer fights because the heat efficiency would be crappy.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9be28eb6b087c64

Now that I think of it... they might die quickly if the ever run into a 3L with SSRM and ECM.

Maybe it will be the long range spotter/sniper?

What do you think?

[TOGSolid]

This thread did not go where I thought it was gonna go. Bravo, seriously.

I think that lights not having their lag shield and, as you mentioned, being really vulnerable to the hardest hitting weapons in the game is causing something other than just a change in tactics. highly suspect a huge amount of the current drop off is due to frauds running the EZ mode mechs realizing that they now had to work for their kills and thus bailing entirely. The good pilots seem to be sticking with what they've always used though: 6MLAS Jenners and Cicadas (I'm grouping them in here just because they're lights with more armor), and Raven 3Ls running the usual MLASes and Streaks. Once Streaks are no longer bugged I highly suspect that the Raven 3L will stop being one of the more prevalent lights.

Machine Gun buffs are being reviewed so we may see the light balance shift if MGs suddenly become viable weapons. Curiously, I've been seeing a lot more Spiders running around lately than usual. I can't quite figure out why though.

Edited by TOGSolid, 29 April 2013 - 02:10 AM.

[Esplodin]

TOGSolid, on 29 April 2013 - 02:08 AM, said:

I think that lights not having their lag shield and, as you mentioned, being really vulnerable to the hardest hitting weapons in the game is causing something other than just a change in tactics. highly suspect a huge amount of the current drop off is due to frauds running the EZ mode mechs realizing that they now had to work for their kills and thus bailing entirely.

<snip>

Machine Gun buffs are being reviewed so we may see the light balance shift if MGs suddenly become viable weapons. Curiously, I've been seeing a lot more Spiders running around lately than usual. I can't quite figure out why though.

Spider pilot here. There is no reason to run a light in this game other then love of the light mech. Crap C-Bills and XP, no reason to scout or tag, have to pound the 5 assaults for minutes to get a kill when you are one and done, zero viable light ballistics (working as intended!), and having to be an excellent pilot to survive even one skirmish with an OK pilot in a heavier chassis.

Rather then throw my mouse at the wall from the latest HUGE speed nerf, I picked up a highlander. No, I don't poptart. I cap, hit and fade, and all the things my spider did just a bit slower but with VASTLY more kills. I can unlock each efficiency tier in a couple hours playing. I make enough c-bills that I have 2 Atlas and 4 Highlanders almost all mastered IN THREE WEEKS and maybe 2 hours a night. I'm STILL working on mastering my SDR-5K. That is just idiotic balance. Assaults are easy mode.

Oh, MG need to be 4DPS or they are not worth it for reasons I've gone over in many MG balance threads. I'd take my 5K out of the garage then. Chance of a decent light ballistic is zero. My hopes of ever getting anything along the lines of balance in this game is in the negatives.

Edited by Esplodin, 29 April 2013 - 05:34 AM.

[Tennex]

a lot of poptart builds can one shot light mechs lool

its so satisfying

Edited by Tennex, 29 April 2013 - 05:55 AM.

[MrVop]

Basically all the stuff you were told about role warfare simply does not exist. Firstly there is only one role, that's DPS. Capping fast or early simply hurts both teams so that's not a role (make 10k CB does not constitute a win).
DPS much easier achieved on the larger mechs. SO the game is evolving into something very obvious if you stand back and look objectively.
I only play the spider for the LOL's I only gimp the team, If I bring a fast jager or CTF3d or just about any other mech I actually help the team, with my spider I Split the enemy team occassionly by half capping and runing to flank, but mostly i pew pew the big guys for fun and practice JJ's. Which happen to be designed for poptarting and not to improve mobility (I dont wanna get into this convesation again, JJ's are just retarted curently)
So yeah, lights lost lag shield, which is awesome because that **** was game breaking, But they never had anything else going for them, so now you have useles mechs on your team.
If they add some weight balancing or capped weight drop mode they might have a role as space filler, but they just don't have one right now.

[Butane9000]

I've noticed a lot of lights I encounter are packing one high damage long range weapon (usually an ERPPC) with some smaller energy weapons for back up. Though I still see some of the old cookie cutter builds.

[Prezimonto]

My biggest complaint about lights is that the rewards for fulfilling the traditional scout role are negligible at best.

TAG/NARC bonuses are smaller than kills (hugely so now that Savior/defender bonuses exist). Capping/back-capping only makes both teams unhappy in many situations. You get little to no reward for smart scout play (like hit and fade/splitting the enemy team significantly). On the capture the resource point maps your choices are often: win on points by back capping and get more XP OR drag the game on and win on cbills and and XP.

Matchscore seems inextricably tied to damage done/kills/assists. Which I understand are trackable, but not overly in-line with achievable goals for a large variety of light variants who's mission is often, harassment/capping/scouting.

ECM (ostensibly the light's friend given the varieties of mechs which have it) actually hurts the entire weight class by tying a huge portion of their support into a single component on a small number of variants. If ECM were actually 2 or 3 different pieces of equipment a light you could tie a whole pile of match rewards into using that equipment well (like TAG/NARC bonuses) and begin to provide a viable way for a support built mech to earn XP. As it stands ECM is all encompassing, skillless to use, and would be silly to tie XP rewards to.

Imagine a mech with ECM (and ECM just covers that mech not it's neighbors) TAG/NARC/BAP... like oh.. the 3L. If BAP countered ECM and nullsignature (another piece of equipment in TT entirely) BAP lets you see where enemy mechs are within your radius even out of line of sight... and transmit those triangles to the mini-map for your team... this gives you a reward when you find the enemy and chain the info back to team mates (5xp/30s/team-mate of conveyed info not-attainable any other way or something). TAG/NARC should apply a bonus for lighting up a mech and/or making it targetable as it currently does and same with spotting assists... but in addition you should receive an assist bonus for damage done to that mech while it was targeted due to your actions. The win bonuses for capping should be scaled to reflect that it's a viable and fair way to win a match, not a lame-duck scenario of last ditch effort.

And that's what I can think of off the top of my head in 10 minutes or less, I'm sure more effort would yield more ideas to try. Information warfare IS the best way to balance lights vs. heavies, but the game is currently more about kills and K/D ratios which is sad.

[Zyllos]

The RVN-3L has great scouting potential, but NARC needs to be brought inline with missile buffs (missile buffs happening soon). I have a RVN-3L waiting in the garage for the fix to NARC so that I can properly scout by providing non-LoS detection with NARC, early detection with BAP w/ Advanced Sensors, and double missile targeting with NARC/TAG.

Sure, I get destroyed by a good Jenner or Commando but that's balance. The reward is that if they do not find me before I provide the big support, the game is over, even if they destroy me.

[stjobe]

I've been saying it for a while now; if you want lights in the game to do something other than loading the highest-damage weapon loadout you can and try to compete with the others for damage/kills, you will have to start rewarding that kind of play.

Sure, it's possible to do good in a light; especially in an ECM or ECM+Streak one, or a 4+energy one like the Jenner - but that's by playing as a Striker, not a Scout. A Scout like my SDR-5V (single ML, TAG) cannot do well. Literally cannot. The 5D is a much better scout with its ECM - and it has an additional hardpoint to boot.

But the 5D makes me XP and CB by doing damage, NOT by scouting.

My COM-1B and COM-1D can run as Strikers (I run the 1D with an ERPPC and an ASRM-4), but the COM-2D is easymode in comparison with its ECM+Streaks.

So, being a light pilot right now is a bit of a struggle. If you play as a Striker, you need to put yourself in positions where you are liable to get one-shotted, and you have to work twice as hard for half the rewards. If you play as a Scout you hardly make any XP/CB and your team is liable to chew you out for not bringing enough firepower and/or for being a "capping coward".

The game really needs to take a long, hard look at two things:
1. What it wants lights to be able to do, and then reward those things equally well as doing damage
2. The power-balance between light chassis. Currently there's the RVN-3L, below that is the JR7-F, and then the other JR7s, then the COMs and the other RVNs, and lastly there's the SDRs. The power-gap between the RVN-3L and the SDR-5K is astonishingly large.

[Prezimonto]

I would agree completely with your assessment. As a Spider pilot I have a lot to contribute to winning a match. I get very few rewards unless I play as a striker, and the 5V and 5K are currently terrible as strikers given their hardpoint selection and positions. The sad thing is that it can be very fun and rewarding to play as a scout, the maps even have good layouts to circle and enemy and spot, and this can even provide excellent benefits to your team. But you rarely see an actual tangible reward beyond the basic "win bonus" that your whole team gets, and worse you get branded with a terrible match score, despite often contributing game winning information/distractions.

[Denolven]

William Denton, on 29 April 2013 - 01:40 AM, said:

Maybe it will be the long range spotter/sniper?

MrVop, on 29 April 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

Basically all the stuff you were told about role warfare simply does not exist.

I can confirm that. After playing a successfull scout in WoT, the first thing I bought here was a Spider-5V. I wanted to be an awesome scout, because that is what I can do best - brain works, fingers not so much.
I tried it, really. For about 500 games - after all WoT is different, so I tried more than a couple games. But no matter what combination I tested, the conclusion was always the same: there is no dedicated scout role in this game. And even if it was there, it's not rewarded at all.

The only role that exists for lights is skirmisher. Fast hit&run to distract, with the occasional kill against weakened or ignorant opponents. That works fine, as far as my 6MPlaser Jenner can tell. But other than that? What the hell is there to do for a "scout" if everything is visible for everyone at every range anyway?
There are no scouts. There are only fast small fighters (lights) and slow big fighters (everything else), and a few hybrids in between that are both big and weak.

As long as everyone has the same vision (has access to the same information), scouting is in no way related to specific Mechs. And as long as sniping is applicable at long ranges (up to 2km), both a sensor range of 800 (1200 if maxed) and TAG with 750 are no "scouting" tools.

Feel free to correct and enlighten me - I actually WANT to play a dedicated scout, one that is not useless.

Edited by Denolven, 29 April 2013 - 08:42 AM.

[Prezimonto]

Well, WoT handles it by providing a "finder's bonus" for the first person to spot each enemy. That's simple enough. I would also appreciate a bonus differentiating "finding" and "making targetable", as well as a bonus for keeping mechs highlighted on a map (ie... following and providing a chain of information over time).

[Kaldor]

William Denton, on 29 April 2013 - 01:40 AM, said:

So what will be the next big thing for light mech pilots?

My bet would be a jump-capable mech which runs around 100 - 120kph with MPL and SRMs/SSRM as soon as missile-damage is back to normal. Good for ambushes and hit and run/hide attacks and bad in longer fights because the heat efficiency would be crappy.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9be28eb6b087c64

Now that I think of it... they might die quickly if the ever run into a 3L with SSRM and ECM.

Maybe it will be the long range spotter/sniper?

What do you think?

I think that build will get you dead even faster than running with an XL300. 124kph is just not fast enough, and you will be at the bottom of the food chain in that build.

[Marcus Cvellus]

Good points in this thread.

I dont think devs thought or had a plan to push gameplay in this way and make light gameplay useless, but out roar on forums, technical difficulties and community pressure made them turn toward FPS recipe that every other game has to appeal to broader number of users.

And you cant translate stuff from TT to FPS, it is not going o ever work, like we saw from mistakes of other mechwarrior games in the past.
It will just create "most damage, most armour, most reward" gameplay we see now. And we know where players will go when choosing mechs and tactics. Path of least resistance.

I am sorry to see that so many light pilots are just with their mechs because sheer love of piloting them, and am afraid that not every one of them has unending enjoyment in being a free kill most of the time.


Edit:
I am also really sorry to say that 99% of the time there is same builds in the field.
It creates repetition, and repetition is not fun, especially when there is no option to change anything. Eather you go with certain builds or you are handicapping your team unless you are extremely godlike good in build you are bringing and which variates from "standard".
.

Edited by Marcus Cvellus, 29 April 2013 - 09:31 AM.

[Zyllos]

Kaldor, on 29 April 2013 - 09:02 AM, said:

I think that build will get you dead even faster than running with an XL300. 124kph is just not fast enough, and you will be at the bottom of the food chain in that build.

What makes the 124kph too slow when compared with the 152kph?

It shouldn't matter if I can't run away from another Light, I should be out damaging him with more weapons or out lasting him with more armor, assuming the same skill.

I can understand that I could be picked off with a single salvo of PPCs/Gauss Rifles due to being slower for the sniper to hit but then that might, again, be an issue with the current mechanics. 124kph is not slow by any means in Battletech, that is a movement speed of 11, which is really high in CBT.

If there is something else going on, then that is the problem.

[Corvus Antaka]

lights need to play smarter now no longer can they circle of death anyone and pray their lagshield holds. using cover, vanishing between buildings and objects are important. Long range weapons are useful too and lights make great little snipers.

[Kaldor]

Zyllos, on 29 April 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

What makes the 124kph too slow when compared with the 152kph?

It shouldn't matter if I can't run away from another Light, I should be out damaging him with more weapons or out lasting him with more armor, assuming the same skill.

I can understand that I could be picked off with a single salvo of PPCs/Gauss Rifles due to being slower for the sniper to hit but then that might, again, be an issue with the current mechanics. 124kph is not slow by any means in Battletech, that is a movement speed of 11, which is really high in CBT.

If there is something else going on, then that is the problem.

Because at 124kph you are an easier target for.... oh wait, everything.
Because at 124kph you cam be run down by alot of mediums.
Because at 124kph any other light that's running at 150ish will outrun you with ease thus controlling the engagement.

Do you need anymore reasons?

Look at the Raven 2X and 4X as a great example. I see either of these and I think "Lunch!" They are merely a snack to any competent player.

And this is not tabletop, so please drop the "11" argument. In MWO, speed is life for a light mech.

[Denolven]

Prezimonto, on 29 April 2013 - 08:50 AM, said:

Well, WoT handles it by providing a "finder's bonus" for the first person to spot each enemy.

Actually, it's alot better than that: if I sit in a bush 200m in front of the opponent and spot him, and you snipe him from 500m away, we both get 1/2 of the damage rewards while both staying stealthed. There are other things as well, like different view ranges, camouflage, and the fact that opponents are only rendered if your team manages to "pierce" their camo with their view range - it's totally possible to be invisible at 50m with direct line of sight.

Zyllos, on 29 April 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

What makes the 124kph too slow when compared with the 152kph?

Not "too" slow. And speed isn't even the main problem in the first place. The combination of lower speed + much bigger size is. Example: Trebuchet 5J, which is basically a fat slow Jenner.

That's why I count mediums to the big&slow fraction. Some of them, for example the Trebuchet or the Dragon, are hybrids - moving relatively fast, but being so big that they can be considered hardcore mode.

If you want to see excellent role warfare, take a look at EVE Online. Every ship, even the tiniest useless crap frigate, has its place. And having the bigger ship means nothing. That is because the shipps have very different characteristics, not just a different appearance.

Edited by Denolven, 29 April 2013 - 11:08 AM.

[Prezimonto]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 29 April 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

lights need to play smarter now no longer can they circle of death anyone and pray their lagshield holds. using cover, vanishing between buildings and objects are important. Long range weapons are useful too and lights make great little snipers.

Except that the game rewards damage(and constant damage in the form of savior and defense kill bonuses) very heavily(and very little else in a meaningful way), and lights don't boat huge alpha strikes in most cases, they just don't have the hard points and tonnage. This leaves most light variants in a situation of damage over time to build up a respectable scores. It also means they're less likely to pick up the special assist(savior ect...) bonuses because they have to hit and fade to survive and the timer reset for those assists is pretty short.

[General Taskeen]

Ah, "Role Warfare."

There is only Troll Warfare or there is Min/Max Warfare.