9 replies to this topic

[Max Liao]

First and foremost, since I know I’m going to get some heat for what I type, let me make a couple of initial disclaimers:

• I know this game is called MechWarrior Online not the Battletech Online. I’m still going to pitch for a more Battletech oriented game. I am also pitching for a more MMO oriented game vice an FPS game. So, if you ever fail to understand one of my points of reference, see if what I’m saying fits more into a Battletech and/or MMO capacity than a MechWarrior/FPS capacity.
  
• I believe in options! Just because I don’t like Clans or the Clan era doesn’t mean that I don’t think that people who enjoy that era should not have access to it.
  
• It’s a long post, but I have a lot to say. tl;dr Get a cup of coffee and read it in parts.

__________________________________________________________________________________

Twitch and reaction time -vs- Tactics and experience

or

Manual dexterity and twitch skill -vs- Character growth and development

or

FPS -vs- MMORPG

The Battletech board game (which many of us love) doesn’t fully translate into the MechWarrior video games. The main reason is that combat in Battletech is a turn-based game resolved by dice, while in the MechWarrior video games is real-time resolved by aiming and accuracy.

In Mechwarrior you advanced by getting a bigger ‘Mech, more guns, etc. In Battletech that happened as well, but more of your growth game from lowering your piloting and gunnery skills. There’s a big difference between a 2/2 pilot and a 5/4 pilot. Of course, the algorithm in a computer game would have to be much broader than what’s given in 2d12, but the concept is the same.

Yes, a player’s skill is important, but Battletech was always more about tactics than it was about twitch - (and as someone who admittedly sucks at twitch play, which is why I play MMOs - where I can excel in PvP and raiding (because I do have excellent situational awareness) without the twitch aiming of FPS’s like BF3 and CS). Let’s find a way of allowing more tactical game play than simply hopping up and down behind a hill over and over again.

Do I believe that it should be totally anti-twitch? Absolutely not! It is an action game/combat simulation.
Here are my suggestions to add in the randomness of Battletech while still allowing for twitch play:

• 1. New pilots start with wide crosshairs. In the same style that many games employ when the player is running and trying to fire a weapon. The crosshairs gradually become narrower over the course of a player’s career until they are a pinpoint.
  
  • a. This would also simulate the randomness of the Battletech game and remove much of the ‘legging’ than many people don’t like. (If the Battletech universe was initially created as an FPS and not a board game, armor and Internal Structure distribution would have been markedly different. Legs would have been more armored than torsos.)
    
  • b. The Battletech game, and even the canon (supplements, novels, etc.) that goes with it, was about randomness. Lostech was such that making ‘aimed shots’ was difficult.
• 2. Allow pilot grades (i.e. Green, Regular, Veteran, Elite) to be grouped up against pilots of similar grades – with a clickable option to be placed against someone of any grade. This will allow those who want to play against similarly skilled opponents to do so, and those who will take on all challengers to do so as well.
  
  • a. In conjunction with #1 (above), the grades would be determined in kind with the width of the crosshairs. Someone with pinpoint crosshairs is considered elite, while someone who has wide crosshairs would be green.
    
  • b. Add in additional combat skills and abilities like – tactics, aiming, etc. They would cost skill points, but can give pilots more to think about than just gunnery skill. This way, if you want to be able to make an aimed shot, you’d need to buy the skill for it.
• 3. Non-streak missiles are dumb fire. You aim them at the opposing ‘Mech, but (just like in Battletech) the number of missiles that hit is random - and they cannot be aimed.
  
• 4. I can go on about weapons systems, piloting skill rolls, etc, but the three points above explain my hope well enough.

__________________________________________________________________________________

Modding and customizing

Let’s be real here …

• Modding is an integral, important, and FUN part of the Battletech and MechWarrior games.
  
• With very few exceptions, anyone can make a better ‘Mech than the once provided in the Technical Readouts.

Whether it’s MegaMek, minis on terrain, or the old fashioned hex-maps I have two rules for the majority of the games I play:

• 1. 3025 era
  
• 2. No mods or customs

I’ll talk about #1 later. As for #2, especially if I’m playing against experience players, I play no mods or customs. Why? Well, because I already stated it … anyone can make a better ‘Mech than what’s given in the manuals. What’s the fun in that? No, take the ‘Mech you’re issued and see what you can do with it.


I used to love to take ‘Mechs like the Crusader, the Phoenix Hawk, or the Thunderbolt – ‘Mechs with known heat issues – and whoop up on people. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a mod that didn’t allow for an Alpha Strike.

Side note: The original canon ‘mechs were never meant to fire all of their weapons at once. This is pointed out very well in the novels, but even in the Tech Readouts you’ll read that an AC/10 was meant for back up, or the ‘Mech was meant to alternate PPC fire, or that the ‘useless’ small laser was meant to target infantry, or that changing weapon systems messed with the targeting computer, or … etc, etc, etc. Battletech was always meant to be a combined arms game. Alpha strike was an adaption from the video games (MW2, I think) and has turned into an unfortunate expectation of all ‘Mechs.

Treat modding much like the 1st Edition of the Mercenaries Handbook, with costs, rolls, potential failures, etc. Yes, people should be able to mod their ‘Mechs, but it should be the exception not the norm – risk -vs- reward.

__________________________________________________________________________________

3025 Era

Personally, I despise Star League/3050/Clan tech games. I know (and understand) why people like them, and I fully feel that people should have access to the genre/era of their liking. With that said, I am pleading for 3025-era game play. The Five Great Houses, Bandit Kingdoms, and the Periphery – no Clans, no Federated Commonwealth, and no Free Rassalhauge Republic.

I can go into my reasons for not liking the updated tech game play - and it has nothing to do with House Liao and the 4th Succession War (hehe) - but that’s a post for a different time.

Side note: I fully understand that Battletech had to grow as a franchise, just as I know that with Dark Age they needed to bring in a new generation. I’m not against the marketing strategy; I just don’t enjoy the game play. As someone else posted, I just wish they would have given the new tech over a MUCH greater period of time and not all at once.

Even at GenCon I only signed up for the 3025 era games, and coincidentally enough, many of the players I met there believe as I do – 3025-era is better; one even said, ‘more pure.’ So there are more people than just me out there who don’t like Star League/3050/Clan tech.

I really want to play this game. I'm not sure that I will if it's Clan era only. My loathing of Clan tech trumps my overall love of the Battletech game and universe. Yes, I am that obstinate (and it helps that I have other games to play as well. )

__________________________________________________________________________________

More than just MechWarriors

Lastly … stop cheering! … I didn’t know where to place this, as it seems to envelop all of the concepts above, but allow for more than just piloting a ‘Mech. Whether it’s planetary capture, becoming a Tech (as opposed to a MechWarrior), or sitting in a pub drinking Timbiqui Dark allow more options than just piloting a ‘Mech.

“You want that SRM 2 removed in favor of a Medium Laser and Armor? I can do that for you.”

“Your PPC took a hit? Well, materials and time will cost you …”

Not everyone would want to play a non-combat role, and some will want to play both combat and non-combat roles, but I suggest allowing people to spend skill point on the technical/maintenance aspects as well. Not only will this encourage community involvement, whether it’s simply intra-guild or fully inter-House, but will also bring in another segment of players to this game and community.

[Smiffy]

Comming from somebody who has spent next to no time playing the TT versions of the battletech franchise, I doubt this will mean much but I can buy what your selling.

I still want my clan tech, but I can see where your comming from.

lets hope everyone can get what they want eh?

[Smooch]

Legging? Ya I was the torso on the ground.

[TheRulesLawyer]

Mostly agree, but still think nobody should get access to pinpoint weapons. Targeting specific sections should only be done by world class pilots at short range.

[MagnusEffect]

I support this thread. I played BT too. HOWEVER, more on about how "stock" Battlemechs REALLY sucked:

Inevitably what happened was a couple of stock mech designs were just waaay better and would dominate the rest. This FORCED players to choose from a shorter list of mechs that (at least cosmetically) they may not even like. Even with the 3025 tech, some stock designs were better than most (thunderbolt, marauder, battlemaster come to my mind... compare the thunderbolt to the jagermech...lol). Some customization should be allowed, just nothing crazy to keep the min-maxing to a minimum.

I would ONLY support no customization if they implemented strict tonnage AND BattleValue limitations. I don't mind taking a **** mech if the numbers are 2:1 in my favor

Still... customization has always been a big part of the franchise. I always preferred the "custom-lite" route: swapping out similarly sized guns for others or dropping some secondary weapons for extra ammo/heatsinks/!ARMOR!. Yeah... definitely more of the latter... many were (some literally) paper tigers. That way, individual designs still keep their original "feel".

Edited by MagnusEffect, 08 November 2011 - 04:00 PM.

[Max Liao]

In the tabletop game I'd whoop all of those 'Mechs with a Grasshopper , but your point is well taken. (I loves me a Thunderbolt - it's one of my favorites.)

I'm with you on the 'custom-light,' but even that gets old. I don't think I've ever played against an Archer that kept the 2 rear medium lasers. Instead they turn the 'Mech into a non-Jumping Catapult and aim them forward. Another one is that nearly everyone drops the MGs on a Warhammer in favor of armor or Heat Sinks. I understand why it's done, but as someone who believes that lore and canon trump game play (yes, I'm a role-player) I find the removal of MGs/Small Lasers verboten - it is meant as an infantry weapon. The problem is no one ever adds in infantry.

That would be another suggestion based on the BT board game ...

~ Add meaningful installations - complete with firing arcs, basements, CF factor, etc.
~ Add infantry (Manpack PPCs, Infernos, gyros, etc). Make them enough of a nuisance that you want to fight them, but hardly a match for a 'Mech.

This brings me to another thing I don't like about the Star League/3050/Clan era, it seems that every **** Assault 'Mech jumps. In the 3025 era, there are only three (stock) 'Mech designs of 60 tons or greater that jump: Victor, Catapult, and Grasshopper. Leave the jumping to the scout 'Mechs and the specialty 'Mechs. To me it did a lot to take that schtick from the scouts. Sure they added MASC and other features to give them speed, but ... bleh.

[Kudzu]

Max Liao, on 09 November 2011 - 12:45 AM, said:

This brings me to another thing I don't like about the Star League/3050/Clan era, it seems that every **** Assault 'Mech jumps. In the 3025 era, there are only three (stock) 'Mech designs of 60 tons or greater that jump: Victor, Catapult, and Grasshopper. Leave the jumping to the scout 'Mechs and the specialty 'Mechs. To me it did a lot to take that schtick from the scouts. Sure they added MASC and other features to give them speed, but ... bleh.

You forgot the Quickdraw .

[Maverick Howell]

I believe we should put new and old mechs into the game. the older mechs could be set for their own division fights or even upgraded with new tech and the same old basic design they were set up with.

[Max Liao]

Kudzu, on 09 November 2011 - 01:24 AM, said:

You forgot the Quickdraw .

You are correct, sir. Good catch! I can't believe I forgot that one, I use that arm-flipper quite often.

Maverick Howell, on 09 November 2011 - 01:38 AM, said:

I believe we should put new and old mechs into the game. the older mechs could be set for their own division fights or even upgraded with new tech and the same old basic design they were set up with.

Absolutely, I'm all for more options to cater to a larger crowd and player base. Clans, Inner Sphere (Star League, 3025, and 3050+) should all have a home in the game. Even if it's later on down the road, I would like to see a Succession Wars campaign (sans Clans and with 3025 tech).

This is presuming that this game isn't just arena combat, but is actually campaign and planetary capture based.

[Owl Cutter]

I am a big fan of jump jets, myself; they're one of the things that distinguish battlemechs from other vehicles, at least in my mind. Speaking of heavy and assault class jumpers you missed, the Crockett is one of those 'mechs whose fluff appeals to me especially. The same goes for bracket fire, and the way tanks and 'mechs are better at carrying different weapon types in addition to the differences in terrain restrictions and durability so, for example, I like LRMs by the trackload, signal warfare goodies on hovercraft and aircraft, and heavy beam weapons on jumping quads. I like totally custom 'mech designs, but designing around an alpha strike is not my cup of tea at all. I prefer long-range batteries with minimum ranges bracketed with monstrous dedicated short-range deterrent, with each on its own making most efficient use practical of what cooling capacity is available. I like the classic Awesome just like (almost) every one else, but would like it much more if it were a bracket-firing zombie instead of an alpha-striking one. The only thing I see alpha strikes and customisation having to do with each other is that customisation facilitates that kind of approach for people who like it, just like it facilitates any other approach. I think the real issue is that most people understandably expect to be able to use all of their weapons whenever they're in range, and some people don't like that being as common as the taste for it is. Emphasise minimum ranges like SW tech does, or even more than it does, and the resultant custom designs should end up with more bracket setups. Emphasise the cost of added heatsinks and the limitations of the basic 10, again as SW tech does, and see more of the classic combos like AC/5 + PPC, AC/10 + Large Laser, and SRMs + Medium Lasers. (possibly on top of the AC/20, as for the Victor...)

I was disappointed to see the timeframe moved forward. I do prefer the Succession Wars era myself, if not necessarily the Intro rules level- artillery and other production equipment that's commonplace in canon (relative to battlemechs, at least!) is essential IMO. My personal preference there is not why I was disappointed, though; I thought it was wise to go back to basics for a franchise reboot and build the gameplay up from the smallest sandbox that makes sense, and add more stuff via sequels, expansions or whatever after that foundation is well-established and all the kinks worked out of the gameplay model. Clan tech rubs me the wrong way, but in large part just because people use it without regard to the canonical differences in industrial capacity and rarity that exist specifically to balance the fact that it's otherwise absurdly overpowered. If its cost in capped in-game resources (such as skill points rather than C-Bills, for example) reflects that, so that everything down to Introtech is still viable in the end-game, I will be plenty happy with the game. If this MW game balances tech levels the way it promises to balance weight classes, I will be pleased as punch because I love the "Kalashnikov tech" aesthetic and would like to have it be a meaningful option.

The level of customisation to allow in an instance of a game is a matter of taste and player preference, and my opinion of how a Mechwarrior game should handle it is that it should emulate the board game in that it allows options to suit the players' taste. Setting up a 'mech just the way you like it is a fundamental part of BT, but so is the established body of canonical designs, so ideally the MW game should eventually support both approaches, even if not all in the first release. If not through game mode options, then perhaps through a point-build RPG system as hinted at by what very little information we have on the game. I really like the idea of being able to invest in a "technician" skill tree to make repairs and such cheaper, and also include prerequisites for customisation options; in addition to having earned access to the appropriate facilities for the refit level you want, you also need have invested some of your RPG points into appropriate skills to do it. Skill point allocation sounds more palatable to me than die rolling. I'm not into the BT RPG, so I don't know what kind of stuff Piranha gets to consider, but IIRC it includes plenty of stuff that's useful in 'mech combat as well as technician trade-oriented stuff. Players who are all about canon-only or even stock-only should be able to play that way and have lots more character build points to spend on other bonuses. Players who want to build a 'mech from the ground up, slap in the cockpit from whichever 'mech of same tonnage whose in-game mesh they most like, and call it a "customisation" should also be able to play their way, but have to pay for it in part by sacrificing other perks and in part by coughing up the C-Bill cost of such a "refit." I myself am eager to customise, but like to keep it limited to maintenance-class refits and am hoping I don't get punished for that by facing one-offs that by all rights should cost several times that of an actual production 'mech and only be available to the most rich warlords or decorated war heroes. Similarly, I want purchasers of canonical refit kits to have some kind of savings over what I intend to do, in terms of skill points and C-Bills. We can dream, I guess.

Edited by Owl Cutter, 09 November 2011 - 08:51 AM.