"LRM's suck, because you know, i suck with them."
Really? That's why i see LRM's crippling or severely damaging a guy who gets moped up by brawles 2 minutes later.
Yeah right. LRM's are still viable, because they are.
Prior to the nerf they traveled to slowly and were too inaccurate to be viable. No one serious would use them. Now they are damaged nerf'ed on top of that. Just because they can do some damage in public games does not mean they are worth 11ish tons per gun + ammo + BAP + Modules + TAG to operate and if you think so, you simply do not understand them.*
Not even talking Artemis and dealing with ECM LRM double-dip (block locks at range, block locks entirely up close). LRMs are just horrendous and right now even lack a damage justification to have them.
Davoke, on 30 April 2013 - 06:04 PM, said:
As for AC/10's, i use them. Why?
Because they're great.
Ammo problems? Nope.
Range? Deals decent damage out to 900m.
Size/Weight? Definitely ain't an AC/20.
Damage? For PPC damage in a brawl, for it's lower heat, definitely worth it.
Except it's inferior to the Gauss Rifle in just about every way for that type of role. It just is. The round velocity alone sinks it.
Davoke, on 30 April 2013 - 06:04 PM, said:
SRM's also suck?
Oh really?
Not as bad as LRMs, but they're a joke.
Davoke, on 30 April 2013 - 06:04 PM, said:
I guess my Cataphract 2X is heresy, since it has SRM's AND an AC/10. Guess i should spend 3 million c-bills making a "practical" build that i'm going to do mediocre in.
Actually yes. The Cataphract 2X is a trash variant (it dominated for about one week after it was first unveiled, pre-Gauss/LRM angle nerf). Nobody would take it into any real match up, and just because it kills PUGs does not make it good. The AC/10 is also a terrible choice for it. It's a bad setup on the 2nd worst Cataphract.
I'll gladly supply you with a number of our proper Cataphract pilots to duel with if you're willing to let us record the fight, of course. If you are arguing that a 2X is even in the same ballpark with the 3D you're just plain wrong, unfortunately.
EDIT: Holy de-rails batman; trying to give new players information on what's actually good in the game has resulted in bad players trying to justify bad builds, on bad 'mechs. It's like the blind trying to lead the blind!
Edited by Victor Morson, 30 April 2013 - 06:17 PM.
LocationFending off an entire RCT of Cappellans with a lance of Atlai
Posted 30 April 2013 - 06:27 PM
So i can solo Highlanders with a trash mech as an average player.
Someone somewhere is doing something wrong.
LRM's are not "some" damage.
They are a helluva lot.
I have a Trebuchet with max armor.
A single LRM20 and an LRM10 took off about 3/4 of my total armor, while i was moving(and had an AMS). And the 2 guys next to me did as well.
Ohhh...velocity, big whoop-de-doo, i'm more accurate with an AC/10 than a gauss anyway(no, really, i am.)
And do not call the 2X trash because you can't play it right(which i'm assuming you can't, since you appear to only have the most popular mechs in your lineup of suggestions), i do rather well with it quite frequently. If you're going to go spreading garbage about how weapons and mechs aren't good because of some personal failing, do so. I'll keep using "trash" and keep putting rounds on target for my teammates.
Oh sure, certain weapons are better than others, but the game isn't just about DPS, and you are making it sound like it is. My founder's Atlas was always an LRM boat, i've turned the tides of a game with it just by slinging missiles downrange and then leading the charge. I've used a dual LBX10 Atlas to flatten an enemy team. I've used that "trash" Cataphract to rip assaults apart. I've used what you'd probably consider "trash" mechs to win a battle, or land that shot that made my teammate get a killing blow. I'm going to keep doing what i've always done with my "trash": standing shoulder-to-shoulder with my Atlases and tearing the other team a new one. It's about playing the game the way you play best, not the way someone else does.
So again, do what you want. I'm not stopping you. But don't tell newbies they "HAVE" to play like you. Because they don't.
I do recommend anyone considering our POVs watch this video.
Consider how little I hit him CT with the MGs by 56 seconds into the fight. His large laser was destroyed. I ran out of things to crit-slot since engine and gyro are not enabled, so the rest is just the 2.4 damage per second against the 20 or so points of internal structure, which got spread during his scurrying about. So the real time to count is when he is stationary.
But I'm sure we both can agree the MGs could use a buff at least until engine crit-slots are enabled.
So i can solo Highlanders with a trash mech as an average player.
Someone somewhere is doing something wrong.
Any fool can buy a Highlander. Killing PUG Highlanders means nothing. A 7 year old on an outdated laptop can own one.
Davoke, on 30 April 2013 - 06:27 PM, said:
LRM's are not "some" damage.
They are a helluva lot.
.... 0.7 damage per missile is what it's at right now, right? Even LRM Stalkers take dozens of salvos to kill anything. When I see a Stalker pop up I immediately go into dodge-panic - then when it fires LRMs I immediately go into "Poor guy" mode instead.
If LRM-15s were like 4 tons they'd be fine. But for the tonnage they are silly.
Davoke, on 30 April 2013 - 06:27 PM, said:
I have a Trebuchet with max armor.
A single LRM20 and an LRM10 took off about 3/4 of my total armor, while i was moving(and had an AMS). And the 2 guys next to me did as well.
This is a tragic misuse of a Treb. They're great brawlers and snipers, but putting a terrible weapon on them is just bad.
Davoke, on 30 April 2013 - 06:27 PM, said:
Ohhh...velocity, big whoop-de-doo, i'm more accurate with an AC/10 than a gauss anyway(no, really, i am.)
You're just used to it. If you got used to Gauss, it would be better.
Davoke, on 30 April 2013 - 06:27 PM, said:
And do not call the 2X trash because you can't play it right(which i'm assuming you can't, since you appear to only have the most popular mechs in your lineup of suggestions), i do rather well with it quite frequently. If you're going to go spreading garbage about how weapons and mechs aren't good because of some personal failing, do so. I'll keep using "trash" and keep putting rounds on target for my teammates.
There was a brief time Gauss didn't explode and LRMs arc'ed very high the 2X was awesome. It has been trash since. Again, your ELO probably is terrible so you're fighting a bunch of poor people who also don't know how to build a decent 'mech. Your pug scores mean nothing in relation to how good it is.
Davoke, on 30 April 2013 - 06:27 PM, said:
Oh sure, certain weapons are better than others, but the game isn't just about DPS, and you are making it sound like it is. My founder's Atlas was always an LRM boat, i've turned the tides of a game with it just by slinging missiles downrange and then leading the charge. I've used a dual LBX10 Atlas to flatten an enemy team. I've used that "trash" Cataphract to rip assaults apart. I've used what you'd probably consider "trash" mechs to win a battle, or land that shot that made my teammate get a killing blow. I'm going to keep doing what i've always done with my "trash": standing shoulder-to-shoulder with my Atlases and tearing the other team a new one. It's about playing the game the way you play best, not the way someone else does.
Again, all of your stories are from pretty puggy battles. You're not going to learn a thing from them. It's like the high school football star who everyone thinks is a God going to the NFL and getting utterly wrecked. If you're getting away with these builds, you're in the "Minor Leagues" at best.
Davoke, on 30 April 2013 - 06:27 PM, said:
So again, do what you want. I'm not stopping you. But don't tell newbies they "HAVE" to play like you. Because they don't.
Of course they don't. I'm not telling them they have to play like this. I'm telling them how to play if they want to have a reasonable chance at doing well in the game, and are interested in winning.
Davoke, on 30 April 2013 - 06:41 PM, said:
And Victor, I'm not usually this hostile, I've just been PO'd this evening, no hard feelings.
Unless we drop against each other sometime.
<.<
It's fine. Like I said, I'd be happy to pit some of our pilots against you. I don't think it would take long to change your mind.
I'm not sure if your unit is like-minded to your builds, but I'd be up for a scrim sometime if it is. I think you'd understand why I'm saying what I am if we did.
LocationFending off an entire RCT of Cappellans with a lance of Atlai
Posted 30 April 2013 - 06:50 PM
Well, the only time i ever PUG is pretty much never, i spend most of my matches getting dragged into a higher Elo game by my teammates who pretty much only play MW:O, so i'm not terrible.
And the .7 is base damage, plus splash. So it's more like 1.15 damage per missile.
As for the Trebuchet, it actually does have a Gauss rifle, it's the only mech i can snipe in that's not the 8Q Awesome, don't know why, probably never will.
.... 0.7 damage per missile is what it's at right now, right? Even LRM Stalkers take dozens of salvos to kill anything. When I see a Stalker pop up I immediately go into dodge-panic - then when it fires LRMs I immediately go into "Poor guy" mode instead.
For LRMs 0.7 damage per missile + 0.28 damage to components within the area of effect; currently allowing itself to splash where it impacts up to twice due to the splash damage bug, hence why they were nerfed. On a skinny target such as a Trebuchet, it can deal up to 2.1 damage per missile, assuming it impacts upper center torso, where it splashes the side torsos and head, as well as splashes the CT.
This is also a temporary nerf until they fix the splash setup. Previously at 1.8 they could do up to 7.2 damage (oh hey, familiar number) on the same Trebuchet and same conditions per missile. That's partly because they had a 60% splash damage spread, resulting in 1.08 damage on every splash damaged target.
A more appropriate way of saying it is to "avoid using LRMs and SRMs for until missile host state rewind is implemented," which is when the fix is intended to come.
A more appropriate way of saying it is to "avoid using LRMs and SRMs for until missile host state rewind is implemented," which is when the fix is intended to come.
This is good advice. I'm not bad talking LRMs and SRMs because I dislike them. LRMs are my favorite weapon system in all of BattleTech, and I was the last hold out trying to justify them in some gimmick builds before the nerf when I realized it wasn't viable.
Once they get accuracy and damage, I'm hoping they return to the top tiers again!
JUst save your funds .. stuff a gauss in a spider and giggle all day
While this is a really, really bad 'mech I wouldn't recommend, I'd be lying if it wasn't hilarious to use sometimes in very not-serious games.
Awful, ineffective 'mech but amusing. Sometimes dumb fun is what you're looking for.*
* I really want to stress everything I've said in this guide is for newbies to perform at the peak of the current game. I don't hate stupid-fun gimmick 'mechs if the pilot recognizes them as such. I swear to you right now, if they put in an Urbanmech, I'd buy it even if I'd never take it anywhere for any reason other than as a joke.
Marvyn Dodgers, on 30 April 2013 - 03:14 PM, said:
As always, good analysis and commentary Koniving, wouldn't have thought about that.
Thank you. The only problem is the 7.2 is a chance, like luck, it averages between 3 and 5 something usually. The 7.2 is the maximum potential. The real issue with MGs is that potential damage is only to components and has no chance of actually devastating structure itself. Great news is if you have someone boating MGs and a LPL or better, have say a spider K or a Raven 4X escorting an Atlas, you can hide behind the Atlas doing corner shots or jump shots with the lasers until the armor is stripped, then unload with missiles and MGs to quickly dispatch the weapons without having to waste time completely destroying the enemy's side torso or weapon arm.
In the video I put up here after your post but before this one, despite how inaccurate my fire was, notice the spider's large laser being destroyed? It's hard to do against a fast target. But find a slow target, get into their back while they're busy brawling, and just sit there destroying their weapons.
Is it viable while pugging?
We'll be honest, it's not really unless you're out to have fun or have some idea what you're doing with them. The team usually isn't reliably coordinated.
Is it viable while in an organized 2 to 4 person group with voice comms and a plan?
A pack of MGs with a different mech to brawl and soak up attention is perhaps one of the most devastating weapon sets you can have; especially if you're going for money.
You can either disable the enemy's weapons if that is viable in terms of time (only need to dearmor one or two limbs, enemy's weapons are ballistics or PPCs) and then move on to the next thread to clean up later (by purely headshots, to get the maximum salvage income).
Or much more fun and great for trolling ballistic builds, go for the legs. Get their legs stripped of armor and spray the MG for a bit. There's a 20% chance (10 for each ammo) of detonating it. Get both to detonate and it's a kill within 6 seconds at the most. If not, strip the other leg and do the same thing.
As I've said in the past the main thing MGs need is more range. Without the damage potential of small lasers and so few hard-points available, it really isn't fair to be so limited.
The reason for the range limit in tabletop is because MGs firing constantly and a single AC/2 round both dealt 2 damage within a 10 second turn. MGs deal twice their TT damage, but mechs have twice their armor, so they're right on par. Everything else shoots too fast, but PGI feels that's required to keep interest up from the action gamers. To keep up, the MGs could also use a damage buff, or perhaps a fire rate increase. It'd be nice to turn 2.4 per second to something better.
Now we'll stray to fantasy: What I'd really like is for a machine gun to take half a ballistic hardpoint, so I can stuff two per hardpoint. That'd mean the Jager DD could do 4.8 damage per second out of the box (and consume 6 tons to carry the MGs), and the MG spider and MG K2 could do 3.2 per second with the MGs (consuming 4 tons). But if they do that the MGs may start producing heat in large boats.
Back to reality: upcoming MG buffs will let us know what happens. I'd personally be content with a range buff and with engine crits being enabled (3 minimum to 8 seconds maximum to kill by engine destruction once the armor is pierced is more than fair considering how light MGs are and how much ammo you get; might even be a tad overpowered) -- but it's already been said engine and actuator crits won't happen until after community warfare.
(Closed Beta History Lesson) Can't wait though -- best parts of closed beta was when you took damage to an actuator and all of a sudden the aim for one arm is way off, or to the leg actuators and your mech dragged left or right. Or when Standard Heatsinks was all you had and you lost a couple, the dramatic heat difference was terrifying and made you nervous about pulling the trigger. But without the computer voice to tell them it had happened, so many confused people cried out "bug" and "glitch." We have a computer voice now, and something tells me since they said they will be activating these after community warfare comes out, it'll again have those effects with a warning about them taking damage so that people don't get confused as to why. The MGs as they are now have extremely high chances of really screwing up someone's day once those get re-enabled. So do LB-10x's and flamers of course. In tabletop, SRMs were also crit-damage dealers, but here not so much.
Davoke, on 30 April 2013 - 06:04 PM, said:
LRM's suck, because you know, i suck with them."
Really? That's why i see LRM's crippling or severely damaging a guy who gets moped up by brawles 2 minutes later.
Yeah right. LRM's are still viable, because they are.
As for AC/10's, i use them. Why?
Because they're great.
Ammo problems? Nope.
Range? Deals decent damage out to 900m.
Size/Weight? Definitely ain't an AC/20.
Damage? For PPC damage in a brawl, for it's lower heat, definitely worth it.
SRM's also suck?
Oh really?
I guess my Cataphract 2X is heresy, since it has SRM's AND an AC/10. Guess i should spend 3 million c-bills making a "practical" build that i'm going to do mediocre in.
I agree here with AC/10s. LRMs are still viable, but they were better before and will be better again in the upcoming HSR patch for missiles. At the moment for the damage they deal they are too slow.
LRMs closed beta were an interesting thing. They rained down overhead, were FAST, were easy to dodge with skill and power-down to break lock / power up and move away techniques, and simply required a bit of skill to deal with. Back then there wasn't AMS either, so you had to learn the skill or you died, as they went straight for your cockpit. In the video below, watch the center to center-right of the screen. That dragon is going to launch LRMs.
Close call, wasn't it? He didn't have a lock -- but honestly you didn't really need one.
SRMs aren't bad. Though I admit this is before
and after.
Liked them better before, but they were doing 12.5 damage per missile at times. Which meant in a single volley of 4 SRM 6's I could do up to 300 damage on tiny targets. When HSR comes in, if that was unchecked every mech would die in a single volley. Quite overpowered back then. Now what really nerfs them isn't the damage nerf but the lack of HSR (you have to aim way ahead of the target and now a laser or flamer can't tell you where they "really" are as they now lie to you to tell you what you see based on your ping.)
For now, I can agree with not putting a large focus into SRMs and LRMs. But the AC/10 is beast. Yes, it consumes a bit of weight, but placed into the arm of a brawling Highlander or into Cataphracts meant for brawling, you really can't do better. Gauss Rifles fire once every 3.75 seconds. You can pump out two AC/10 rounds from a single cannon in the time it takes you to line up that second shot for the Gauss Rifle. Also the slower speed of the round makes it easier to estimate how far ahead of the target to shoot. Gauss Rifle you can't fire directly at the light harassing you at close range, but you can't fire ahead of them either. If you fire at them it misses. If you aim slightly ahead, there's no time for convergence to adjust and you end up firing on a weird angle. The AC/10 doesn't have this problem because you lead farther away and convergence doesn't try to adjust mid-shot just because the Jenner's leg got too close.
Finally, for fun -- and don't do this as while I did it for a bug report and didn't know until later when told that I kept phasing in and out of the Atlas making both of us virtually invincible, this is currently considered an exploit. I got a slap on the wrist. Doing this again though could get a temporary ban. Since the video is out, there's little excuse to ignorance. Still, it was a cool thought, and it's fun to watch.
AC/20 Raven perched on an Atlas. Remember, don't try this at home, or ever.
Read through the thread and ... well ... Vitor is being a bit egotistical with regards to his opinions ... and most of them *are* just opinions.
As far as points:
1) Cap Module ... terrible first choice for new pug players. Target Info(?) is much better, then probably sensor range. The one that tells you what the other Mech has, and more appropriately, what part of the mech is damage. So you not only don't mention, anywhere, that targeting the opponent and trying to aim / hit parts that are already damaged, you steer them away from that aspect completely.
2) SRM/SSRM's ... while nerfed, are much better then LRM's and are not terrible when combined with ballistics (both requiring leading aim). I am starting to prefer SSRM's only because they do have some "arc" ... like throwing a curve ball. Plus the other player hears the "incoming missiles" message which could cause panic, or even drown out a critical heat message.
3) Roles. You don't mention a single thing about roles like Sniper vs Brawler vs Scout vs Meat Shield. You don't have to give a lecture, but at least mentioning basic tactics would be good.
So Victor, when writing a guide, the point is not to impart "your wisdom" but to impart "community wisdom". Try to bear in mind that the best guides are more about "cliff notes" then "soap box speeches". Your guide is not too speechie ... but your reply are taking on Soap Box characteristics.
I agree that Victor is biased and opinionated... but so what. This is his guide based on his experience and advice. It’s not supposed to be an official community-vested guide. I support threads like this even if they are only 1 person’s point of view (and the spirited arguing they create.. good stuff).
But, if you want to split hairs, “Victor's Complete Setup Guide For Newbies!” not complete and it doesn’t setup anything. Nevertheless, good general information for new players. I’d like to see it reach a complete state even if many of the points can be debated.
It's one thing to debate Victor's advice, but his tone? Is he "notey or speachy." Really?
His advice is good. It is defensible. It is well reasoned. And, it is in accordance with the majority of the community. In fact, I would have to argue that the OP is taking the general consensus on almost every point. Some may be debatable, but ALL of the original guide opinions are widely held. To state otherwise is being dishonest with anyone reading this.
Is it perfect? Comprehensive? The only way to play? Nope. But, it doesn't have to be...it simply has to be useful and do no harm. A basic framework to guide beginners in.
Jaggermech trick builds, LRM boats, and misleading math are not guiding beginners. They are academic exercises - designed to push home a controversial view point at an advanced level. There are a bunch of other forums for this sort of debate (dozens now that they are all split up).
THIS IS THE "NEW PLAYER HELP" FORUM. Not the "Use-newbies-as-a-foil-to-argue-the-same-old-points-with-other-clans" Forum
In short. Machine guns are horrible. Their range is anemic, and their damage only applies in a very specific use case. Of ALL the weapons, they (along with flamers) are the least viable to new players. There is exactly one mech where they may not completely suck...and it needs 6 of them, to be almost viable, against beginners. GIVE ME A BREAK.
LRMs are sorta horrible (since the nerf). Unlike machine guns, they actually do some damage. But, they are heavy, and again have a very specific use case. 8-mans tend not to use them. Competitive builds don't use them. Can you use them to good effect? Possibly? Should new players take them? GOD NO.
SRMs were terrific. Currently, they are borked. Plain and simple. Are they awful, now? No. And the OP suggests using them if there is space/weight left. Good advice. But, they are not currently a primary weapon.
Vic - i'm starting to get the i'm right and you all are wrong vibe from you.
If it makes you feel better, I didn't invent the way this works. You're going to find almost all of the things I've said are standard procedure amongst even moderately competent units at this current point and time.
I didn't compile this based on my piloting skills or some stories of a high damage in a random game. I compiled this around what you need to do to be viable.
I felt PUGs are steered wrong enough, or encouraged to build "Frankenstein mechs" by people who still wish this was TT BattleTech and I thought I should offer them a guide to how serious games are played, and how to prepare yourself for upper-tier fighting.
I seriously am more than willing to fight anyone's unit who does not believe me or supports non-viable systems like LRMs on the condition that we can record the match and post it freely.
zraven7, on 01 May 2013 - 04:28 AM, said:
I'm still stuck on the "SRMs are bad" posts a few up. They seem to work just hunky-dorey on my trebuchet.
SRMs are bad...ish. Like I said, if you have the spare tonnage and a free slot, they still do enough damage output to be tolerable - they're just not really, really good anymore.
When the missile HSR gets put in and SRMs gain their full power back, well.. if you have any designs with SRMs prepare to have them suddenly feel Godlike once that happens.
It's one thing to debate Victor's advice, but his tone? Is he "notey or speachy." Really?
I want to apologize for coming across that way. I am notably monitoring the thread and shooting down terrible ideas and builds, so that a new player reading it may make up their mind on their own.
It feels like a lot of the very people who I wrote this originally for instead rather argue that LRMs are a perfectly solid weapon system right now, which is just baffling.
Anyway, I apologize for coming off this way. The reason I keep offering to fight this out with video is these arguments get very muddy on the forums and if I didn't know a thing about the game, I wouldn't know who to believe, and I'd be more than happy to offer a recorded demonstration for future arguments.
... that said, here's hoping Missiles (among other things) get a solid buff next patch to open way more ways to play (while still having competitive builds!)
EDIT: I would like to stress I have no desire to argue LRMs/SRMs/MGs here. I'd rather they not got brought up - I'm pretty vocal about it elsewhere. This is a thread for newbies and I really don't want them steered off by stuff like 2 ER PPC / 6 MG Jaggers.
It's my hope that maybe a few newbies will check things out, take away at least a couple good points and avoid frustration as some of the designs in this thread make them fire BB guns until they die, more or less. heh
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Davoke, on 30 April 2013 - 06:04 PM, said:
