49 replies to this topic

[Donnie Silveray]

I'm no mathematician or into graphs, so don't expect that kind of intense detail from me, but I had a small brainstorm regarding making the LBX-10 viable.

First off, look at what Ballistics has to offer. I'm sure you already know the range/damage/ROF curve, moving on from that. What does the LBX-10 have to offer right NOW? Nothing, really. Especially with the 800k pricetag and PGI has stated (I think) that they do not plan to add new ammunition types for a loooooong looooooong time. So, to make the LBX10 viable in the near term and with general ease is to do something simple that'd make it fit a certain role in combat.

The LBX10 is a scattergun, easily precluding its use as a close range brawler weapon. It's about the same size and weight as an AC10. From the outside it looks like a close range version of the AC10, profit right? Well the problem lies in that each pellet does 1 damage and obviously being a scattergun, the pellets scatter. Making matters worse, it is much more economical and simpler to just mount an AC10 and fire the one shot at one location. We've heard this issue all the time.

So then, how to make the LBX10 a viable close range, lightweight, brawler weapon? My thoughts right now is to basically apply a small multiplicative bonus to each pellet that impact the same mech location. Again, I'm no math wrath and I dislike graphs, but here's a general idea of how it'd be:

[DISCLAIMER: NUMBERS ARE EXAMPLES DON'T COMPLAIN]

CT Impact
1
+
CT Impact (previous impact detected)
1*(1.5)
+
CT Impact (previous impact detected)
1*(1.5)

etc making a maximum possible damage from an LBX10:
[(1x1.5)x9]+1= 14.5

The point of this consecutive impact bonus is to encourage players to use this weapon as a brawler to get as many pellets to hit the same part at once, recieving bonus DPS. This gives the LBX10 something the AC10 doesn't have. In addition to the bonus DPS from multiple pellet impacts, each pellet recieves the same crit bonus the MG has.

Math, crap, stuff aside, the idea is to make this weapon an appealing close range brawler for medium/light heavies that can't/don't want to use an AC20 while possessing roughly similar DPS for the smaller size and weight with the main caveat that unless you're 100m or less you won't hit one mech location with all pellets.

In conclusion, this idea's primary function is to give the LBX10 a viable niche or use that an AC10 cannot ever provide as well as rewarding getting in close and delivering that buckshot but not so powerful that you out-DPS an AC20, but still close enough that given a choice, a mech ill suited for an AC20 would go for the LBX10 in a heartbeat as an alternative to the AC10. I believe this is a fairly balanced approach as the minimum damage this thing can do is standard TT 10 but giving MWO players a reward for brawling with the weapon.

This solution likely doesn't require crazy programming or long drawn out balance sessions or wacky alternative ammo while making the weapon more viable but not overblowing it.

[Davers]

How about we have the LBX-10 use the same mechanics as missiles? Have a single shot that has 'splash' damage that represents the pellets? We can give the increased crit chance to the splash damage, but not the original shot?

Any actual 'shotgun' effect detracts heavily from the fact that the weapon actually has good range, and is an improvement from the AC/10, not an alternate weapon system.

Edited by Davers, 29 April 2013 - 04:45 PM.

[Karr285]

Add ammo to the game 2 ton 2 crit 15 slugs 15 cluster, LBX is now viable and can never take the place of the AC10 ie

AC10 with ammo is lighter than LBX with the 2 ton/2crit ammo

[General Taskeen]

Problem.

The LB-X is not meant to be a brawler weapon, perhaps as a bonus, but they are actually extended range auto-cannons. Meaning those clusters are supposed to all hit a target at range.

[Donnie Silveray]

Karr285, on 29 April 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

Add ammo to the game 2 ton 2 crit 15 slugs 15 cluster, LBX is now viable and can never take the place of the AC10

Well I did say PGI doesn't intend to add ammo for a while (I think...). I want the alternate ammo to make this weapon useful. But they won't, least not for a while.

General Taskeen, on 29 April 2013 - 05:37 PM, said:

The LB-X is not meant to be a brawler weapon, perhaps as a bonus, but they are actually extended range auto-cannons. Meaning those clusters are supposed to all hit a target at range.

And here I was hoping the range on the thing was just user error on PGI's side . Though the one minor problem still stands that the LB-X is useless atm.

Edited by Donnie Silveray, 29 April 2013 - 07:57 PM.

[El Bandito]

Buff the pellet damage from 1 to 1.2.

Voila! Right direction.

[BlackYoshi1230]

As much as I hate to say I liked how much Mech3 did it due to the complaints it draws (as far as coring CTs go under desperation, whilst I would use normal AC-10s to leg others), I honestly think that we do need LB-X to have a tighter spread (though how much, we would have to experiment/test it) so it can be viable at range and be able to give others that psychological effect that something is out there busting multiple sections of their torso (given the poptart situation and whatever debacles we currently have about range superiority, I'm rather irritated about how much my front CT and only that goes from brown to dark orange in one long volley).

I used to like running a dual LB-10X K2 during R&R days (was one of the most... "economical" builds I ever had), being able to peel lots and lots of armor but for some reason, not kill anything. I would like a reason to revisit that build.

[Psi Borg]

First thoughts that leap to mind.

1. Tighten the spread with half the shot for double the damage, 10 to 5 for 2 damage each.

2. Give us the option to toggle ammo LB-X was able to use both ammo types if i recall.

2cents

[Agent KI7KO]

Here's a strange gimmick i've thought about.

LBX now launches a canister. Canister deploys 10 pellets (depending on LBX Caliber of course) at 75m+-25 away from predicted impact point.

The canister behaves like a traditional AC round.
If you have a target selected, the Canister round will use that range as a reference if your crosshair is close enough to your target (up to 10 degrees?).

Edited by Afoxi, 29 April 2013 - 11:10 PM.

[Gaulwa]

Hi, ressurecting this thread because I think it is unfair to call the LBX-10 a bad weapon. People only think it is bad dues to misinformation. Let me explain:

The LBX-10 is a critical seeking weapon. This mean it's efficiency greqtly improve when hitting qn unarmored part of a Mech.

If the target is armored:
AC/10 does 10 damages
LBX-10 shoot 10 pellets for 1 damage each

Clearly, the AC/10 is better as it focus all damages on a single Mech part.

But what happen when you finally strip the armor off a Mech?

AC/10
58% to cause 10 internal DMG
25% to cause 10 internal DMG + 10 DMG on internal elements
14% to cause 10 internal DMG + 20 DMG on internal elements
3% to cause 10 internal DMG + 30 DMG on internal elements

On average, an AC/10 cause 10 internal DMG + 6,2 extra Damages on equipment.
Thanks to the extra damages on equipment, you can destroy his ammo (causing a critical chain-reaction most likely to be fatal for the Mech, or at least severly crippling), you can destroy the engine before the center torso is fully destroyed (goodbye!), or destroy it's weapons turning the Mech into a very expensive paperweight.
Gauss rifle are even worse as they only have 3 hitpoints and explode in 90% cases, causing 20 DMG to the Mech.
Anyway, you get the Idea... so now, what happen when you shoot the LBX-10:

LBX-10
For each pellet, there's:
34% to cause 1 DMG
33% to cause 1 internal DMG + 2 DMG on internal elements
28% to cause 1 internal DMG + 4 DMG on internal elements
6% to cause 1 internal DMG + 6 DMG on internal elements
(each pellet deal double critical damage)
On average, each Pellet deal 1 internal DMG, plus 2.14 DMG.
Is every pellet land in the same part, you are looking at effectively 10 DMG of internal structure, plus 21,4 DMG scattered in all the internal equipment.

Every weapon has only 10 Hitpoints, exception of Gauss (3) and AC/20 (18). Engines have 15.
With a bit of luck, a LBX-10 will destroy 1-2 weapons per shot in an arm or a side torso. Hit some ammo, you get an instant win, shoot all pellets in the Center torso and you will almost certainly destroy the engine in a single hit. (Please note at the time I am writing this, and engine at 0 HP has no consequences. No death. It is planned... but when?)

Severly crippling a Mech or destroying it as soon as you strip the armor... that's what I call dangerous.

Edited by Gaulwa, 31 August 2013 - 04:56 AM.

[Sybreed]

Davers, on 29 April 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

How about we have the LBX-10 use the same mechanics as missiles? Have a single shot that has 'splash' damage that represents the pellets? We can give the increased crit chance to the splash damage, but not the original shot?

Any actual 'shotgun' effect detracts heavily from the fact that the weapon actually has good range, and is an improvement from the AC/10, not an alternate weapon system.

I suggested that a long, long time ago. But, you know...

... PGI

[OneEyed Jack]

Did you guys completely miss the months of data showing that PGI has no idea how to implement splash damage along with hit locations in a way that isn't broken?

[Nehkrosis]

it already is viable.
it crits. hard.
dont use it at range, and it still shreds armour like an ac10, since theve already tightened the spread.
furthermore, once the armour is gone, they die alot faster than they would with an ac10, due to the large crit potential.
so....

Edit; more range, and a quicker cooldown on firing im pretty sure..

Edited by Nehkrosis, 31 August 2013 - 06:49 AM.

[Bayamon]

There are now more threads about the LBX on the forums than actual LBX rounds fired ingame.

But i dont remember commenting on one yet.

I am against the idea of implementing Slugs as an option for the LBX because it would make the regular ACs obsolete.
The reason why it works in BT(TT) is because its not supposed to be "balanced"...there simply is better technology to have and it doesnt need a "downside".
The only balance would be higher cost or higher BV.
Higher Maintanace costs WOULD be a factor if we still had R&R...but to a very limited degree only.

If we had the option to use slugs with the LBX, why use a regular AC ?
LBX has longer range, weighs less, occupies less crit slots, generates less heat.

Currently the LB 10-X in MWO is in a decent place...but the regular AC is still better.
You get a tiny DPS increase over the regular AC, IF youre targeting a location without armour AND youre close enough to make each pellet hit.
That means the extra DPS is worth 0 if the target has armour or you miss with more than 2 or 3 pellets, which is easy to do in ranges beyond 200meters.

The only redeemng factor is the reduced weight/crit slots/heat.


Ideas to make the LBX worthwile have been expressed a hundred times over and here are my favourites.

1. Increase the damage per pellet to 1.2 - 1.5 to offset its greatly reduced effective range.

2. Flak like canister shot that detonates X meters away from the target, producing the same "spread" regardles of range.

3. Higher RoF.

4. Increase critical damage/chance even more.

[Joseph Mallan]

Give it Slug Ammo also so it can be used like a Assault Shot Gun.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

The easy fix to the LBX-AC10 is to do what they did for missiles. The gun behaves like a missile launcher in many ways, and like the missile launchers the solution is to increase per-pellet damage.

My preferred number is 1.5x. If you managed to hit all ten pellets in the same section, you get 15 total damage. However, aside from close-range large targets (Awesomes and Atlases and such) you're far more likely to spread your damage around a good bit. This actually makes them stronger up-close, which though not in line with the setting is in line with PGI's implementation of them as mech-scale shotguns.

If PGI added air-burst canister shot in place of the shotgun effect and select-fire for HEAP rounds (standard AC shots) then this would all be moot, but since the LBX line of ACs is shotgun-only, bonus damage per pellet is the obvious way to go.

[Training Instructor]

Like many other ac, the lb10x. Really shines when you have two of them

[Dyson Ring]

A couple of ideas that I had (but kept forgetting about when it comes to posting about them)

1. Make the spread of the pellets dependant on the range of the 'Mech being fired at (at long range have low spread, at short range have high spread).

2. Make it fire a single shot, but when it does damage it does 10 1-damage ticks spread over the 'Mech using the Streak SRM mechanics they introduced a few patches ago.

[A Man In A Can]

Bayamon, on 31 August 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:

Ideas to make the LBX worthwile have been expressed a hundred times over and here are my favourites.

1. Increase the damage per pellet to 1.2 - 1.5 to offset its greatly reduced effective range.

2. Flak like canister shot that detonates X meters away from the target, producing the same "spread" regardles of range.

3. Higher RoF.

4. Increase critical damage/chance even more.

Considering the track record with LBx, I'd say the last two options are more likely to be looked at.

[Odins Fist]

The LBX-10 is decent "finisher" on already damaged Mechs with internals showing, but that's about it... To be effective you really need to mount two LBX-10s, and at that point it's not worth the weight.
Almost everything the LBX-10 does, the AC-20 can do better, and I use the AC-20 as the finishing shot to kill many, many Mechs. Right now the LBX-10 is mostly a novelty weapon, and I can say that I can't remember the last time I was killed as the result of a LBX-10 shot..

Right now I will pass on the LBX-10 in any configuration, it just doesn't confer any advantage over other weapons systems for the weight versus result, especially for my playstyle.

This doesn't mean someone cannot become proficient with a LBX-10, but that doesn't mean a lot since anyone can get decent with any Mech or Weapon if they spend enough time on it, but that is the case with anything, anywhere. If all you use is the LBX-10, then by default you should be proficient with that weapon, if you're not, then that speaks volumes about the pilot, and the weapon.