61 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Karl Streiger, on 30 April 2013 - 07:03 AM, said:

To counter "meta" with tactics or team work is no option.

Same principle as with ECM...its so easy to counter....yes but that I need to counter a 1.5ton equipment or run my team with abnormal bad efficiency is NOT tactic.

When I'm pushing it a little bit further... your suggestion means:

I have a team really fast hovercrafts and davy crockets
yes I'm absolutly powerfull at any range - all i need is a idea where you are.
But i have no secondary armament, and not enough armor for a real fight.
But hey with a good team with light Mechs and ECM and lots of cover so that I can't see you to get near my position...so that I'm not able to nuke you.
So Davy Crockets are fine.

Bringing a Nuke to a warzone are you now? IIRC A Davy only does 100 damage to targets in point of impact and decreases by 5 every 30 Meters. Bring it! You win by killing everything on the field of battle!

[Prezimonto]

Did you read my post? I did not suggest that we have scope in. I suggested a convergence time for torso mounted weapons when changing ranges. It would spread alpha damage from torso weapons across an area roughly the width of your mech, unless you do wait for a short delay. This doesn't change the damage you do, but it does spread alpha damage across several hardpoints, when changing ranges, unless you wait. Totally a skill based thing to manage, does not add RNG, does solve the general issue. To alpha a single hardpoint you need to actively expose yourself to return fire. I think that's a fine trade-off.

[Karl Streiger]

oh if a davy is not enough the peaceof blake have some bigger ones too.

hope point is clear however

[MaddMaxx]

Prezimonto, on 30 April 2013 - 07:25 AM, said:

Did you read my post? I did not suggest that we have scope in. I suggested a convergence time for torso mounted weapons when changing ranges. It would spread alpha damage from torso weapons across an area roughly the width of your mech, unless you do wait for a short delay. This doesn't change the damage you do, but it does spread alpha damage across several hardpoints, when changing ranges, unless you wait. Totally a skill based thing to manage, does not add RNG, does solve the general issue. To alpha a single hardpoint you need to actively expose yourself to return fire. I think that's a fine trade-off.

When you use terms like these,

Quote

game that allows snipers to fire without a scope-in time and often scope sway.

apparently I get confused about WTH your were on about.

So I apologize, but.

You do realize that this spread you want so bad has to remain pretty tight as the target your shooting at is not a mile wide from 500m. The day they introduce any mechanic that makes you miss when you were clearly "on" the target, MWO will be dead inside a 6 months.

Let's run some "guesstimate" Maths (not my thing usually but). A Hunchback is 12m tall. Most pictures would seem to indicate that the Legs of that Medium Mech would take up half of that(1/2 or 6m) That leaves the top half at some 6m in height.

Now, once again, most pictures show the width of the upper torso across the shoulders to be about two thirds of that distance, so about 4m from outside shoulder to outside shoulder.

So now we are spreading out fire and if the pipper starts in the center there is only +/- 2m of give to either side before the shots begin to MISS. Thus if we even agreed to a 1m spread, then given the # of section across that FULL width, the allowable spread would have to be such, that hitting a second section/panel, would be nigh on impossible.

And yes, I did select the Medium Chassis to emphasize the issues inherent with the idea. The bigger they get, the less spread effects the MISS chance, but, the smaller they get, the more the MISS chance increases.

So, we can argue the numeric size values of Mechs all day, but once the guns start to spray around then the FUN starts to be LOST and then everything else simply goes to hell in a hand basket.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 30 April 2013 - 07:54 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

And overly exaggerated Sir!

We don't have tactical Nukes in game, we have "Small arms". And thus teamwork and the rest that Dozer listed Win's battles better than any Cheese build. Unless the Cheese builds are using proper teamwork, then you are up Fecal Creek without a boat!

[Rackminster]

MaddMaxx, on 30 April 2013 - 07:50 AM, said:

You do realize that this spread you want so bad has to remain pretty tight as the target your shooting at is not a mile wide from 500m. The day they introduce any mechanic that makes you miss when you were clearly "on" the target, MWO will be dead inside a 6 months.

/disagree

Numerous FPS games include a 'bullet spread' that players find wholly acceptable - especially if they've been running, jumping, getting hit, or are using full-auto.

I wouldn't mind at all if the game included a spread mechanic that made it near-impossible for a mech on the run to slam 6 PPC's into the CT of another running mech at 500m. Adjustments for range, motion, etc should all take time. The more you're moving, the harder it is to aim - and the more impossible it becomes to put every shot into someone's CT.

Stand still and be a Sniper if you want to Snipe (pinpoint). Walk and brawl if you want to brawl with modest accuracy (3m spread) penalties. Run and spray lasers everywhere if you want to run (6m spread). Jump and fire wildly if you want to jump (9m spread).

[MaddMaxx]

Rackminster, on 30 April 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

/disagree

Numerous FPS games include a 'bullet spread' that players find wholly acceptable - especially if they've been running, jumping, getting hit, or are using full-auto.

I wouldn't mind at all if the game included a spread mechanic that made it near-impossible for a mech on the run to slam 6 PPC's into the CT of another running mech at 500m. Adjustments for range, motion, etc should all take time. The more you're moving, the harder it is to aim - and the more impossible it becomes to put every shot into someone's CT.

Stand still and be a Sniper if you want to Snipe (pinpoint). Walk and brawl if you want to brawl with modest accuracy (3m spread) penalties. Run and spray lasers everywhere if you want to run (6m spread). Jump and fire wildly if you want to jump (9m spread).

Tell that to the Jenner pilot's with 3 ML's ( we are spreading everything right?) running @ 140 for survival reasons. They would likely be in disagreement with your disagreement.

[Joseph Mallan]

MaddMaxx, on 30 April 2013 - 08:33 AM, said:

Tell that to the Jenner pilot's with 3 ML's ( we are spreading everything right?) running @ 140 for survival reasons. They would likely be in disagreement with your disagreement.

For the record, I would love to see the players in a Jenner doing 140 actually pin point strike a moving target for real! All the clips of a WARTHOG firing its AC show it starting a good 1/4 mile before the target and stitching a line up to the target... Real world skill v gamer skillz.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 30 April 2013 - 08:40 AM.

[Lostdragon]

MaddMaxx, on 30 April 2013 - 08:33 AM, said:

Tell that to the Jenner pilot's with 3 ML's ( we are spreading everything right?) running @ 140 for survival reasons. They would likely be in disagreement with your disagreement.

What if when you are running at top speed the size of the reticle increases by 10%(maybe this is too high or too low for what I intend, but it could easily be adjusted)? At the effective range of medium lasers that is nothing, it will have a minor impact. When trying to hit a mech at 800m, though, you may not hit CT on an assault and you may miss a light completely. If you want to guarantee the shot lands where you want when you snipe you will have to slow down or stop but at medium to close range the impact is minimal.

[Rackminster]

MaddMaxx, on 30 April 2013 - 08:33 AM, said:

Tell that to the Jenner pilot's with 3 ML's ( we are spreading everything right?) running @ 140 for survival reasons. They would likely be in disagreement with your disagreement.

If he's running for survival reasons, he shouldn't be expecting pinpoint accuracy to fight back... He should be running for his life. The buggers running circles around me to chew me up wouldn't be much impaired by a wider reticle since my Mech takes up most of their screen anyways, and the little guy running away won't be able kill anyone anyway - he's just looking to get in a lick or two before he dies.

What I'd expect is serious accuracy impairment for anyone who's trying to pop-tart or running along and tries to alpha someone a good distance away.

[Hotthedd]

Belorion, on 30 April 2013 - 06:22 AM, said:

They should just disable chain firing, and firing while they are at it.

When people fire their weapons at my mech it gets hurt. Clearly OP and needs attention.



Magically hits the same spot? Wow, I never knew a weapon firing where you pointed it was magic.

You are pointing multiple weapons from different parts of your mech on a TWO-DIMENSIONAL screen, but every weapon is hitting the same spot in THREE-DIMENSIONAL space, regardless of distance. The reticle can move from a target 50m away to one 500m away and every weapon still hits the same spot. Yes, that is some hand-wavium magic in my book.

Leiska, on 30 April 2013 - 06:47 AM, said:

Alphas will never be simply a desperation move unless you built your mech wrong, which applies to basically all canon stock variants. If more heat penalties are added, the smart players will simply run less guns and still alpha you every time, because, unlike most things in BT, alpha strikes make sense.


There probably actually is a wait time as one of the elite mech skills reduces convergence wait time. It's not very noticeable, though.

That is my point. Not only do Alpha strikes make sense, it is at the point where NOT alpha striking DOESN'T make sense, because there is no downside to alphaderping.

[Kill Dozer]

MaddMaxx, on 30 April 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

And then there were Pug's... LOL

Good try though. Using the Team play gambit never works because some don't play a Team oriented game to be a team player. They prefer the "Rambo" style then blame all the other supposed "nubs" for their loses.

You fix that and then we are a GO!

Yeah, I forgot, to its detriment, there are no premade/private team matches in JumpSniperOnline. In my defense, fixing it isn't "my" (or your) problem, it's PGI's. Only time will tell how they manage to get along.

[Mechteric]

Liberator, on 30 April 2013 - 05:04 AM, said:

Could you please lay them out for the rest of us to see?
Maybe you can put light in an issue or two that can aid the current mwo situation.

Jump jets, accuracy at range, heat thresholds, heat dissipation, heat per second, damage per second... sorry I guess that was more than one or two Suffice it to say the ability to alpha strike can exist just fine with any or all of these other properties properly balanced.

[Parliment]

I dont see the point. If your unable to counter someones alpha damage. Then work around them flank,cap,hide,work with team. ect ect no one ability is a game breaking thing.

Edited by supernachos, 30 April 2013 - 10:21 AM.

[Liberator]

MaddMaxx, on 30 April 2013 - 08:33 AM, said:

Tell that to the Jenner pilot's with 3 ML's ( we are spreading everything right?) running @ 140 for survival reasons. They would likely be in disagreement with your disagreement.

As said earlier i do not think the slight spread that have been suggested would affect a brawler at knifing range, snipers standing still would benefit from perfect accuracy.

[MaddMaxx]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 April 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:

For the record, I would love to see the players in a Jenner doing 140 actually pin point strike a moving target for real! All the clips of a WARTHOG firing its AC show it starting a good 1/4 mile before the target and stitching a line up to the target... Real world skill v gamer skillz.

Not if, the faster you go the larger, the Reticule/Cone of Fire/Weapons Spread gets...

(that was the premise on which I wrote that response)

[MaddMaxx]

Rackminster, on 30 April 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

What I'd expect is serious accuracy impairment for anyone who's trying to pop-tart or running along and tries to alpha someone a good distance away.

But the requirement for this serious impairment is a Mech loaded with 6 PPC's. I have yet to see a Light Mech with 6 PPC's ffs.

You have just killed the Golden Goose to get one Golden Egg sooner. It was a stupid idea then and is still a stupid idea today.

[Liberator]

supernachos, on 30 April 2013 - 10:16 AM, said:

I dont see the point. If your unable to counter someones alpha damage. Then work around them flank,cap,hide,work with team. ect ect no one ability is a game breaking thing.

The point is that sending an alpha into a single section is the best way to go and it is very easy right now, this in turn leads to players being cored very fast and feeling cheated for a great game experience. Secondly there are few downsides to using massed energy weapons to do this, as heat at worst can shut you down, and the upper limit for heat in mwo is way up there.

So it is not alpha strikes in themselves that are the problem, but rather their ease of use and high damage to a single location.

MaddMaxx, on 30 April 2013 - 10:45 AM, said:

But the requirement for this serious impairment is a Mech loaded with 6 PPC's. I have yet to see a Light Mech with 6 PPC's ffs.

You have just killed the Golden Goose to get one Golden Egg sooner. It was a stupid idea then and is still a stupid idea today.

Let this rest, jump sniping can be discussed later, or in another thread, unless you both feel it is of the outmost importance to bring it up.

[Yokaiko]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 April 2013 - 05:58 AM, said:

What... Only 9 buttons? Armature!

inorite.

[Lostdragon]

MaddMaxx, on 30 April 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

Not if, the faster you go the larger, the Reticule/Cone of Fire/Weapons Spread gets...

(that was the premise on which I wrote that response)

Don't make it based on actual speed but % throttle. At 100% throttle there is 10% penalty or whatever you want to call it. Applies the same to all weights, makes sniping harder but doesn't matter much in a brawl.