44 replies to this topic

[Xenon Codex]

This is something I've always been curious of...do components (weapons, heatsinks, etc) take direct damage or do they only take critical hit damage?

For example, if I load up an un-armored arm with 3 DHS, do those DHS absorb damage that would normally go against internal structure, thus keeping my arm from being destroyed sooner than if it was empty?

[Neolisk]

Rhialto, on 30 April 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

Interesting read... glad more questions are coming around this.

Don't you think PGi should also chime in and post somes answers? Or have a post saying how it works as of now? Since it's a beta, we are left with many random values to play with.

I would put it in game, preferably as a set of tutorials to guide your through a process, separated into basic and advanced, this being an advanced tutorial. Something like "okay, here is an Atlas, Typically you don't know armor levels on the enemy mechs, but this time we tell you it's 72 points. Now shoot with your AC20 aiming at the leg. See what happened - the armor became yellow... bla-bla... Now, once armor is gone, the internal structure starts taking dmg... bla-bla... now, when the leg is gone, an Atlas becomes very slow" etc.

Edited by Neolisk, 30 April 2013 - 09:43 AM.

[Koniving]

XenonCx, on 30 April 2013 - 09:36 AM, said:

This is something I've always been curious of...do components (weapons, heatsinks, etc) take direct damage or do they only take critical hit damage?

For example, if I load up an un-armored arm with 3 DHS, do those DHS absorb damage that would normally go against internal structure, thus keeping my arm from being destroyed sooner than if it was empty?

Good question. Answer is no.
Structure always takes damage. Crit damage is a bonus damage that goes exclusively to any one of the available "slots" to damage. To load them up is what is called "Crit padding", as the more slots you have the less likely you will lose a specific heatsink/ammo/weapon.

This is also a reason to favor smaller missile launchers over large ones, as launchers with 5 slots will take damage easier than launchers with 1 or 2 slots.

Edited by Koniving, 30 April 2013 - 09:47 AM.

[Neolisk]

Koniving, on 30 April 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

What happens when your ammo explodes?

That part I know, even though I am still not 100% clear on how an ammo explosion of armored mech could cause destruction. Is it because of a critical dmg multiplier (x3), which may come into play? I mean internal structure has a lot of armor, two packs or ammo doing 20 dmg total is usually not enough to cause any problem. But even with x3, you have to be unlucky to have stored ammo in every location in your mech, to link an explosion from an arm to CT for example, which you typically don't do.

Remaining question is how dmg is spread between internal structure and other parts, what takes crit dmg and what not etc.

Koniving, on 30 April 2013 - 09:46 AM, said:

Good question. Answer is no.
Structure always takes damage. Crit damage is a bonus damage

Does structure take crit damage, i.e. 2x and 3x? Or is it strictly for components?

[Koniving]

Neolisk, on 30 April 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

That part I know, even though I am still not 100% clear on how an ammo explosion of armored mech could cause destruction. Is it because of a critical dmg multiplier (x3), which may come into play? I mean internal structure has a lot of armor, two packs or ammo doing 20 dmg total is usually not enough to cause any problem. But even with x3, you have to be unlucky to have stored ammo in every location in your mech, to link an explosion from an arm to CT for example, which you typically don't do.

Remaining question is how dmg is spread between internal structure and other parts, what takes crit dmg and what not etc.
Does structure take crit damage, i.e. 2x and 3x? Or is it strictly for components?

I was destroyed because I had 4 tons of ammo was in the arm, and transferred to my side torso. XL engine was then destroyed with the side torso.

Every ton of ammo has its own 10% chance to detonate, but they can chain react and detonate in series too. Each explosion does damage based on how much ammo you have left. I had a lot of ammo left.
-----------

Structure does not take crit bonus damage from weapons fire. So the bonus is strictly to components.

In a machine gun example.. One MG does 0.04 damage per bullet. It can critical up to 3 times for a damage of 0.12 to ammo/weapons/etc. in addition to 0.04 per bullet to structure.

One MG does 10 shots per second. Giving it 0.4 damage to armor/structure, with a max crit chance (if all triple crit) of 1.2 additional damage to crits per second.

Now, 6 MGs per second pump out 60 bullets, which is 2.4 damage per second. If every shot triple crits, it'd do 7.2 damage to crits on top of the 2.4 damage to structure per second. However, every bullet of the MG crits once minimum per shot, so at bare minimum you will deal 2.4 damage to structure + 2.4 damage to crits every second with 6 MGs.

Edited by Koniving, 30 April 2013 - 10:48 AM.

[Neolisk]

Koniving, on 30 April 2013 - 10:47 AM, said:

Every ton of ammo has its own 10% chance to detonate, but they can chain react and detonate in series too. Each explosion does damage based on how much ammo you have left. I had a lot of ammo left.

Very good explanation - thank you. The only question - if ammo detonates, does it do 10 points of damage per remaining ammo? I mean did I get it right with 10 pts?

[Koniving]

Neolisk, on 30 April 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

Very good explanation - thank you. The only question - if ammo detonates, does it do 10 points of damage per remaining ammo? I mean did I get it right with 10 pts?

Actually the damage count depends on the type of ammo with a basis taken from Tabletop.

The specifics I don't know, sadly. Wasn't that big into the tabletop (too expensive, not enough interest in local people to get into it).

I do know the AMS one is off and forgiving, though, instead of one damage per remaining AMS bullet, it's nowhere near that severe a punishment now.

Edited by Koniving, 30 April 2013 - 11:04 AM.

[Koniving]

Rhialto, on 30 April 2013 - 06:39 AM, said:

Ok but do you think it's the same for an arm? If an arm goes on the ground, is there still a ghost arm on the mech that can take some damage?

Just wondering if you shoot an AC/20 on that spot if it will hit something like an invisible wall or just fly away.

While I'm writing this I realize I could go test this in Testing Grounds but I can't before getting home... and I like to keep the conversation. Feel free to reply or I'll test it tonight anyway.

Missed this question. There is no ghost arm. It's just gone. However, carefully placed shots to the exposed tubes/wiring/etc. once went directly to the internals, bypassing armor as they should. Does not seem to work anymore.

If the shoulder (side torso) is destroyed, sequential damage to that side torso is transferred to center torso. Any side torso damage goes directly to center front torso armor until it is gone. Once it is gone, the damage goes to center torso structure regardless of rear CT armor. Even if you shoot the rear-side that was destroyed. Goes to front, then structure of the CT.

Edited by Koniving, 30 April 2013 - 11:12 AM.

[TarkaTarquol]

The damage done via Ammo Explosion depends on the type of ammo. If the data at Smurfy is correct, then the damage of exploding ammo is equal to the amount of damage that ammo type does when used.

For example, a ton of SRM ammo has 100 shots that each deal 1.5 damage. If the full of that was to explode, then the damage done to the internal structure would be 100 * 1.5, or 150 damage. Needless to say, if you have that fully explode on you, no matter where it is, you're gonna blow up.

I was in my STK-5M and lost one of my legs once. I had already lost 1 ton of SRM ammo from getting it stripped by PPC fire, and when it fully got blown off a few minutes later, the ammo that time decided to explode on me. I had good armour on my Side Torso and Center Torso, but when ammo explosions happen, armour is not taken into account. The ammo explosion in my leg transferred the damage to my Side Torso, directly damaging the internal structure, even though I still had armour. My ST went next and either the ammo in my arm started to go after my ST was blown off or there was enough remaining damage to blow my CT out from the first, but whatever the case, the one ammo explosion in my leg was enough to completely take me out of commission.

This is one thing you really have to take into account on the battlefield. If you get behind an enemy and they're using non-Gauss ammo, think about where they may put it. Is it a boating build? Would they pack as many tons of ammo as possible? Is it worth it to try and cause an Ammo Explosion? Sometimes, it's better to aim for their Legs than their Rear CT, because if they skimped on leg armour and have ammo stored there, Ammo in legs gets consumed last, so those are full damage ammo explosions waiting to happen. I don't know how many Catapults I've taken down simply by legging one and having a chain reaction start.

[Victor Morson]

Rhialto, on 30 April 2013 - 04:40 AM, said:

With a moving taget and all the action around, I know it's near impossible to blow a leg that fast, but maybe it's also because my reasoning is wrong so that's why I'm asking as I'm interested to better understand how damage are done.

Keep in mind that some weapons will deliver all their damage to a single location up front (AC/20s, Gauss, PPCs) versus others that will discharge it over time like lasers. The main advantage to Pulse Lasers (which aren't too great right now, unfortunately) is that their discharge pattern & time is greatly reduced from a regular laser.

What this means is that with beam weapons, even if you have say 30 points worth of damage per strike, it's likely to discharge some into the air around the 'mech and some is likely to hit parts of the 'mech you weren't aiming for.

That's why getting shut down is such a death sentence: It's not just that they can hit you, it's that they can take time to hit you for full discharges right in the exact spot. Even with all-at-once weapons it's hard to get targeted shots on a skilled moving target.

Anyway, I just thought I should let you know, esp. if you played other MW where lasers deliver all damage to the initial impact point.

[Neolisk]

Koniving, on 30 April 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

Once it is gone, the damage goes to center torso structure regardless of rear CT armor. Even if you shoot the rear-side that was destroyed. Goes to front, then structure of the CT.

Does rear CT gets transfered to front CT as well, or working as it should, and you can take out all the internals with front CT still armored?

TarkaTarquol, on 30 April 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

If the data at Smurfy is correct, then the damage of exploding ammo is equal to the amount of damage that ammo type does when used.

Not that it's very physics-friendly, but it explains many things about ammo explosion, and shows exactly why you need a CASE.

Edited by Neolisk, 30 April 2013 - 11:49 AM.

[Koniving]

No. Rear and front CT are separate in armor. Then just like side torso, structure on front/rear center torso is just one piece.

[Xenon Codex]

Neolisk, on 30 April 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:

Not that it's very physics-friendly, but it explains many things about ammo explosion, and shows exactly why you need a CASE.

Just remember, CASE only prevents explosions from spreading to other sections and can only be equipped in the side torsos. Therefore, CASE is useless if you run an XL engine.

[Deathlike]

Here's a way to look at "crit buffering" as described in the crits thread...

Let's say you have a Hunchback-4P. Let's say you have the classic 6 meds in the RT. What the guides suggest (which is more or less ideal) is to stuff 2 DHS in the RT (this assumes you're not using an XL engine, for obvious reasons). You have 80 (!) points of HP in the RT. However, if you lose ALL the armor in the RT, everything goes. I don't know what the actual ETA for 1 MG to remove all of the items stored in a Hunchy's RT, but it would take a while. It's easier to shove in the 24 pts of damage to remove the RT (1 AC20 + 1 med) altogether. When damage is dealt to the "80 HP RT", your chances of losing a medium laser is much less of a problem until the RT armor is gone. If you did not have DHS added there, you would be losing a medium laser for every PPC/AC10 shot (which, would accelerate you losing your RT anyways).

With respect to legs.. there is NOTHING to buffer them from taking straight damage like how the 15HP engine protects the CT weapons (unless you have an XL engine). So, if you put ammo in the legs, you are literally GAMBLING to save yourself if someone decides to aim at it... all the more reason to max out on leg armor if you store stuff there.

Here's one more thing/tip: ECM in the CT is a bad place. Let me explain to you why..

ECM has 3 HP... the Engine has 15 HP.

The Engine consumes 6 CT slots, and ECM consumes 2 slots.

So, mathematically, you have a 1 in 4 chance at HITTING the ECM in your CT... this assume the crit is actually being applied in the first place. I'm unsure how the crit chances are dealt with if 2 or 3 crit/slots are dealt to (like, it would be possible to hit the same section again?)

So.. assuming every hit deals a crit, you have to look how ECM would survive... I prefer to use the Streaks example... since they hit CT and are the reasoning for this...

Streaks deal 1.5 damage to CTs (for reasons beyond anyone's understanding). If a Streak is evenly distributed between the engine and the ECM (no other crits matter by design)... and assuming the CT is exposed... 4 streak missiles (which is essentially what is fired by 2 SSRM2s), 4.5 damage is dealt to the engine crit, and 1.5 damage is dealt to ECM. On simple math principles (even though it is under an ideal situation), the ECM will go after the next pair of SSRM2 launches.

Also, remember that crits can deal to 2 or 3 slots, instead of 1... so it is possible in any instance of a Streak Shot to the exposed CT, the ECM can immediately fall off.

Considering the state of Streaks (locking to CT), this is not limited to this weapon in particular... ECM in the CT is a bad housing location. Even BAP will hold up better than ECM in the CT...

The best place to put ECM these days is one of the side torsos.. optimally buffered with DHS or other weapons to the damage.

Edited by Deathlike, 30 April 2013 - 12:31 PM.

[Neolisk]

Koniving, on 30 April 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

No. Rear and front CT are separate in armor. Then just like side torso, structure on front/rear center torso is just one piece.

So, can you destroy a mech from behind and have its front CT armor untouched?

XenonCx, on 30 April 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

Just remember, CASE only prevents explosions from spreading to other sections and can only be equipped in the side torsos. Therefore, CASE is useless if you run an XL engine.

You are right, so only put CASE in the arms, right? I mean legs don't have enough space for it I guess, so only the arms seem to be a viable storage of CASEd ammo.

Deathlike, on 30 April 2013 - 12:18 PM, said:

Let's say you have a Hunchback-4P... You have 80 (!) points of HP in the RT.

How come you have 80 points of armor in the RT in a Hunchie? Stock has 48 split into 40/8, and that's the maximum you can have.

[Deathlike]

Neolisk, on 30 April 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

How come you have 80 points of armor in the RT in a Hunchie? Stock has 48 split into 40/8, and that's the maximum you can have.

It's not the armor points that I'm referencing, I'm talking about HP relative to the weapons+DHS in them (6 meds, 2 DHS). The Hunchy has naturally 24 pts of internal armor in the RT... I'm talking about stuffing the RT with 80HP worth of equipment.

Edited by Deathlike, 30 April 2013 - 01:14 PM.

[Koniving]

Neolisk, on 30 April 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

So, can you destroy a mech from behind and have its front CT armor untouched?

You are right, so only put CASE in the arms, right? I mean legs don't have enough space for it I guess, so only the arms seem to be a viable storage of CASEd ammo.

Your first question is answered in this video. His front armor is untouched. But once I get through the back armor, the front/back CT is damaged at the same time.
Your second question's answer is you cannot put CASE in arms.

Edited by Koniving, 30 April 2013 - 01:49 PM.

[Neolisk]

Deathlike, on 30 April 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

It's not the armor points that I'm referencing, I'm talking about HP relative to the weapons+DHS in them (6 meds, 2 DHS). The Hunchy has naturally 24 pts of internal armor in the RT... I'm talking about stuffing the RT with 80HP worth of equipment.

As we figured above, there is no point to stuff more equipment - it will not save your 24 pts of internal structure, cause that get damaged anyway, and once gone, your whole 80HP is gone. If you had no equipment, would not make a difference. So I think I'm missing your point here.

Koniving, on 30 April 2013 - 01:48 PM, said:

you cannot put CASE in arms.

Which makes the CASE practically useless with XL engine, correct?

[Koniving]

Correct. Some say it prevents damage from going in as well as going out. However virtually everyone calls "B.s." on it. Personally I haven't really tried it yet since I'm not a Gauss Rifle person.

I'll be a bit before I answer any more. Going to run a while with 6 MGs because after the last time I ran with them and got kills with the MGs alone, I feel I need to record this awesomeness. Then I think I'll relax a bit in Skyrim.

Edited by Koniving, 30 April 2013 - 02:17 PM.

[Deathlike]

Koniving, on 30 April 2013 - 01:48 PM, said:

Your first question is answered in this video. His front armor is untouched. But once I get through the back armor, the front/back CT is damaged at the same time.
Your second question's answer is you cannot put CASE in arms.

Do we know what % of damage is transferred to the internal armor with shots from the frontside once the external armor is breached from the backside?

Neolisk, on 30 April 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

As we figured above, there is no point to stuff more equipment - it will not save your 24 pts of internal structure, cause that get damaged anyway, and once gone, your whole 80HP is gone. If you had no equipment, would not make a difference. So I think I'm missing your point here.

The point was that if you were to worry about losing weaponry while having armor exposed, there are ways of mitigating that (usually with DHS), but you would only delay your impending death outside of gross incompetence.

Edited by Deathlike, 30 April 2013 - 02:19 PM.