68 replies to this topic

[Helix]

I like them! Sort of. I am worried that this change will seriously negatively impact the efficacy of large laser and medium laser boats, which aren't really game breaking right now (they're pretty middle of the road, actually).

So I guess I just hope that the dev team don't do a hamfisted solution like "all grouped weapons generate extra heat" just to nerf PPCs.

[Tennex]

its alright.

i just hope it doesnt heavily punish the energy builds. while leaving ballistic/missile builds alone.

i know some ballistic weapons generate almost no heat when boated; Gauss boats.

Edited by Tennex, 16 May 2013 - 02:11 PM.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

Was there some kind of announcement?

edit: found it, nvm

Edited by AntiCitizenJuan, 16 May 2013 - 02:17 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

I'm actually relatively cool with the increased cool-down. I actually felt that the ROF was a hindrance to some degree, whilst now the slightly longer cool-down should actually increase endurance on balanced builds, like a K2 or Awesome 8Q/9M.

What it won't remotely help with, of course, is Alpha Boats. In fact, in some ways it helps them, too. But since they are looking for some sort of heat stacking mechanic, I am willing to wait and see.

I still think the Heat system itself is the root of the issue, but I can also see where we may be way too far down that rabbit hole to hope for a re-vamp. (Despite the part where doing so would address a NUMBER of issues).

Will be curious to see.

As for Gauss-Boats:


I think their fragility (and mass), and tendency to make your mechs inside squishy are still going to be a pretty effective brake on that. The Annihilator with arm mounted ones would worry me more. (Since they don't have the weight to effectively mount 60 tons of guns PLUS ammo, gonna assume the torso ballistics will get something else... like UAC5).

Of course, that's assuming we see either of those mechs anytime soon. (as of the publication of the 3050 tech readdout, in 3052, the Mauler was listed as being on the Proving Grounds. Dunno how accurate that it, but seems like we might have awhile.)

[Pale Jackal]

What are the nerfs besides affecting PPC refire rate? Though really, I think increasing heat would be a better way of nerfing PPCs. The real limiting factor is heat, not refire rate.

I guess, rarely, I might be able to get off two PPC volleys in a single jump, but producing more heat would force me to stay behind cover longer, and even more negatively affect my close up brawling potential.

I'd also like to see SRMs buffed back to their old damage levels - a SRM6 now weighs 4 tons for 9 spread out damage that produces 4 heat. I'd rather have a medium laser. If I had a reason to pack SRM6s on my Highlander, maybe I wouldn't pack 1 Gauss and 3 PPCs.

Edited by Pale Jackal, 16 May 2013 - 02:25 PM.

[Helix]

They made a second post saying one of the things they're considering going forward is to make weapons of the same type generate extra heat per weapon of that type fired in a certain period of time (basically to make boating have seriously negative penalties).

While this would probably help bring PPCs down, I feel like it would screw over laser boats, which aren't really dominating or anything and don't really need nerfs.

[Pale Jackal]

Helix, on 16 May 2013 - 02:25 PM, said:

They made a second post saying one of the things they're considering going forward is to make weapons of the same type generate extra heat per weapon of that type fired in a certain period of time (basically to make boating have seriously negative penalties).

Ah yes, I remember that proposed fix back in beta.

It's just so sloppy and lazy.

I think they can simply nerf some of the long ranged weapons now, like PPCs. PPCs now break ECM, have a quicker travel time, and have better heat. But another key factor is that there's now long ranged maps. Not to mention the host-state rewinds that make killing lights easier, which in turn nerfs brawler lights. Oh, SRMs and LRMs are also currently nerfed.

PGI, I am glad you buffed PPCs, because they needed it at the time. However, maybe now it's time to nerf them. Or let's see if the missile fixes help discourage snipers.

Edited by Pale Jackal, 16 May 2013 - 02:31 PM.

[Syllogy]

Changes are incoming.

[Wales Grey]

OP used both "Stated" and "Proposed" in the title, this thread is already off to a good start.

Instead of doing some overly-complex and likely to break code with multiple weapons firing, why not just make heat sinks give diminishing returns per heatsink? Energy boat is now solved, ballistics are improved because missiles/energy tend to hog a mech's heat capacity.

Alternatively, why not completely revamp the fitting system and create "weapon packages" that you slot into a mech's hardpoints, and shift customization options more to mech performance e.g. turn-rate, acceleration, arm aiming, spoiler angle, tire tread, etc.? Mechs usually only have one "main gun" or battery of weapons as their main weapons and then maybe two or three other subsystems for DPS or a bit of ranged poke, such a change would only codify an already occurring behaviour as well as allow developers to have greater control over a mech's role on the battlefield. Win-Win, I say.

[Ter Ushaka]

If I could increase the spoiler angle on my Jenner, I could run faster and maybe evade some PPC/AC/Gauss projectiles. This is a Good Idea, and I hope adopts this for a future patch.

[Syllogy]

Changes are Coming.

[Shadowsword8]

I might be fine with those changes IF lasers aren't included in it. They may have pinpoint accuracy, but their beam duration make them far less efficient at punching a mech part than, say, a PPC or AC20.



And while we're at it, ER lasers still need a heat decrease to be viable.

[Donnie Silveray]

The changes are in the right direction to put risk into boating the low weight, low slot energy weapons. I do worry the affect it might have with smaller level energy weapons but I'm pretty sure PGI wouldn't have them perform a linear scaling. If anything (if the mental graph plays out) It'll be a nice upward curve as heat generating weapons rise in output. Hopefully it'll push it enough to the point where boating 6 PPCs will induce an instant shutdown (and possibly internal damage) while 3PPC that isn't an Awesome would risk shutting down before a 2nd or 3rd salvo. On that note, I'd be VERY supportive of an Awesome Quirk that buffs its heat dissipation. Cause, really folks, do not deny that the Awesome deserves to be Awesome. I get pissy when I see something packing 4 PPC but isn't an Awesome or Warhawk, but joyed to fight against a PPC Awesome.

[80Bit]

I somehow doubt that any "boating" penalty will be applied equally to all weapons. Any penalty that is meant to reduce PPC boating would kill the viability of a lot of energy heavy light and medium mechs.

[Asakara]

Poor Jenner-F's and their 6 energy hard points.

[Writer]

The solution is fairly eloquent. The smaller the tonnage/ damage weapon, the smaller the heat scale penalty for boating it.

Suddenly mechs now have an incentive to pack smaller-damage weapons like small lasers, small pulse, medium lasers, SRM 2's and 4's, AC/2's and AC/5's, and LRM 5's and LRM 10's. Thus mech builds make a choice between heat scale penalties, or running lighter damage but better heat synergy builds.

To top it off, mechs like the 4P or the Blackjack 1X won't be utterly devastated by this system. Jenner-F's can continue to run hot, or load up 1-3 small lasers/ flamers/ small pulse.

Edited by Rhenis, 16 May 2013 - 03:37 PM.

[Tennex]

they need to set specific penalties for each weapon

that way the ML boating jenner the AC2 boating jagermech won't be affected as much. And they can have a higher boating penalty on the PPC.

Higher boating penalty on the Gauss/AC20/AC5s because their heat generation is so low that normal boating penalties would not be effective.

Edited by Tennex, 16 May 2013 - 03:38 PM.

[Nauht]

Tennex, on 16 May 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

its alright.

i just hope it doesnt heavily punish the energy builds. while leaving ballistic/missile builds alone.

i know some ballistic weapons generate almost no heat when boated; Gauss boats.

You need to refine your definition of boat. I have never, ever seen a gauss boat. The cost in weight is just too prohibitive.

Have two of a weapon does not make it a boat. Mechs have always had a left side and a right side and ever since BT can out is was usually about symmetry regarding arm weapons. Didn't see my marauder/warhammer/timber wolf have different weapons on each arm.

If you mean the gauss PLUS 3xppc - well which weapons are being boated then really?

[Pale Jackal]

Wales Grey, on 16 May 2013 - 02:38 PM, said:

Instead of doing some overly-complex and likely to break code with multiple weapons firing, why not just make heat sinks give diminishing returns per heatsink? Energy boat is now solved, ballistics are improved because missiles/energy tend to hog a mech's heat capacity.

No, because it's already ridiculous that Engine DHS give 2.0 cooling whereas outside the engine DHS give 1.4. Besides, this hurts any energy build, besides just PPC-based builds.

How about we simply nerf the weapons that are too good?

Or again, I'm curious to see if the missile changes will decrease the prevalence of sniping, as both brawler and LRM builds will become more viable.

[Tennex]

Nauht, on 16 May 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

You need to refine your definition of boat. I have never, ever seen a gauss boat. The cost in weight is just too prohibitive.

Have two of a weapon does not make it a boat. Mechs have always had a left side and a right side and ever since BT can out is was usually about symmetry regarding arm weapons. Didn't see my marauder/warhammer/timber wolf have different weapons on each arm.

If you mean the gauss PLUS 3xppc - well which weapons are being boated then really?

i thought they were trying to nerf Alpha builds? so the AC40 and the gauss bulid do not constitute alpha builds.

also your thought process is very short sighted.

Fact of the matter is the PPC was not boated until the Stalker came out.
and the AC20/Gauss is not boated.
Untill the Mauler/Annihilator comes out.

Edited by Tennex, 16 May 2013 - 03:54 PM.