99 replies to this topic

[MaddMaxx]

ShadowVFX, on 02 May 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

This, all the way. It's obvious that someone high up thought this was the coolest thing ever and can't admit that it's just not fitting well with the current game. It took them MONTHS to concede that something should be done about it and the results were arguably the smallest nerf in MWO history. Instead of doing what was needed to balance ECM, they have forced the rest of the game to conform to it.

I would've hoped that as professional game developers, they would be able to objectively step back from their own creations to analyze it in an unbiased manner. But we're all just human in the end, so perhaps I shouldn't be surprised.

Yup, it is a "Conspiracy" of the highest order. It must have taken the PGI brass months, hunkered down in the boardroom, to come up with one this fool proof. Makes WaterGate look like a kids game.

[3rdworld]

Keifomofutu, on 02 May 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:

Just a little update on ECM.http://mwomercs.com/...eapon-balances/

Pretty pathetic attempt to balance ecm.

[Keifomofutu]

3rdworld, on 02 May 2013 - 10:48 AM, said:

Pretty pathetic attempt to balance ecm.

Might not have the more dynamic interplay that a fully realized electronic warfare duel could have, but it certainly will be more balanced.

[Livewyr]

MaddMaxx, on 02 May 2013 - 10:41 AM, said:

So in affect, until you get what you want, nothing else will suffice. To bad 45000 others have the same attitude. Not sure about the 3PV or Coolant reversals. 3PV is going to go in and Coolants are already in, after a slight modification, which I thought was rather clever and actually showed they know the Community better than the Community knows itself.

If you have ever felt insulted or that I have been belligerent, than I apologize but it is very hard to make ones point, in many cases, without someone taking offense regardless of what is said or how it is worded.

Well.. ' if by what I want,' you mean: "ECM stops protecting the mechs from missile locks/targeting and stops making an enemy mech within 180 completely unable to lock targets at all" then yes.. until we get that I won't be satisfied.
They made the modifications to the coolant pods after the forums erupted into a giant fireball over the MC only better coolant flush. (Which honestly.. I didn't care all that much about.)

If ECM got the same uproar that coolantgate did.. It'd receive proper treatment. (Trouble is, whereas coolant pod effects everyone, ECM only really effects those who use missiles in the first place, and many that don't use them, view missiles incorrectly as noob weapons that deserve the ECM treatment... many of whom are now complaining about jumpsniping....)
Incidentally.. the only time's I've played in the last month have been in a highlander jump sniper.. because I kinda missed mechwarrior 4

(And no, I'm not referring to you- there is a very specific person in mind, whom everyone who looks at the Official posts regarding ECM would know I'm referring too.. lol)

[MaddMaxx]

Well BAP will negate ECM @ 150m and in... Soon^TM so I guess that will allow players to decide whether or not to carry it. I assume non ECM Streak carries will have to find the 1.5t somewhere but having the decision is better than not having it I assume.

And yes, I meant that "everyone", myself included, will likely have something that does not suit their fancy in any game. The Dev's cannot be expected to satisfy the want and needs of each individual player.

[Volthorne]

Yay, Paul just gave everyone who carries missiles and is NOT in an AS7-D-DC a big middle finger. Thanks, Paul.

[Livewyr]

MaddMaxx, on 02 May 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

<interesting and hope generating snippe>

And yes, I meant that "everyone", myself included, will likely have something that does not suit their fancy in any game. The Dev's cannot be expected to satisfy the want and needs of each individual player.

One thing that I prided myself on in the game before essentially dropping it as junk was that.. I used everything.. and I used it effectively. (If I didn't use it effectively, I used it over and over until i figured it out.. and used it effectively.)

I had every chassis at least elited up until the Jager (which came out around when I quit) because I wanted to use everything, in every capacity just so I could understand their roles better. There is a post floating about somewhere in the archived GD forum where I had posted all of my mechs and the roles they played.. I think The only rolls I was missing were Light Sniper, Light Support (missiles), and Assault Scout... (which my PB came close to being)

That is why I found I could be a fairly good information source on balance.. "I been everywhere man..."
(As a side note, things I felt needed help were MGs and Flamers, AC10 and possibly the AC5 compared to UAC5- ECM and the final command chair decision to keep it broken was the reason I left..)

Edited by Livewyr, 02 May 2013 - 03:53 PM.

[Chemie]

As a light, I am not about to take BAP to its effective range so you can LRM that DDC. I will let you use TAG for that.

So who is gonna carry BAP? Streak cats.

Even after LRM is fixed, LRM boat won't take because LRM range is greater than BAP range. Lights with BAP would be suicide with PPC meta.

[El Bandito]

Chemie, on 02 May 2013 - 02:03 PM, said:

As a light, I am not about to take BAP to its effective range so you can LRM that DDC. I will let you use TAG for that. So who is gonna carry BAP? Streak cats. Even after LRM is fixed, LRM boat won't take because LRM range is greater than BAP range. Lights with BAP would be suicide with PPC meta.

My cat is jumping with joy.

[Cyke]

Actually, I think BAP being able to perform the Counter ECM role is excellent news!
I commend PGI for keeping their eyes and ears open to the community and taking a step in the right direction.

They have said that they will be tweaking some specifics, including the range of the BAP counter ability, so we can just wait and see.


Honestly, I don't see ECM losing its super-stealth capability until:
- LRMs and Streaks require more effort to successfully lock and fire, with a chance that the shooter can accidentally fire a miss on a lock-on attempt
- LRMs need to be more faster and more effective when someone does manage to attain a difficult locked shot
- other Advanced Equipment becomes more potent (such as BAP's own detection capabilities, NARC, and C3) where ECM can be given the ability to nullify those instead

Until then, easy ECM needs to be the counter to easy LRMs, and maybe BAP being the counter-counter to ECM will improve the flow of the game.


Edit: Interestingly, we're starting to see some changes moving toward a more dynamic design.. LRMs are having their speed increased slightly, NARC is being improved, and BAP is being improved (even if only as a counter to ECM).

Edited by Cyke, 02 May 2013 - 10:18 PM.

[Livewyr]

Cyke, on 02 May 2013 - 10:15 PM, said:

Honestly, I don't see ECM losing its super-stealth capability until:
- LRMs and Streaks require more effort to successfully lock and fire, with a chance that the shooter can accidentally fire a miss on a lock-on attempt
- LRMs need to be more faster and more effective when someone does manage to attain a difficult locked shot
- other Advanced Equipment becomes more potent (such as BAP's own detection capabilities, NARC, and C3) where ECM can be given the ability to nullify those instead

Until then, easy ECM needs to be the counter to easy LRMs, and maybe BAP being the counter-counter to ECM will improve the flow of the game.


Edit: Interestingly, we're starting to see some changes moving toward a more dynamic design.. LRMs are having their speed increased slightly, NARC is being improved, and BAP is being improved (even if only as a counter to ECM).

By "easy mode" i can assume you mean "minimal requirement." (That being the closest relative definition of ease.)


Requirements of shooting a laser weapon:
1. Point at mech.
2.Click
3.Hold reticle on mech for about 1 second or less.
4.Profit.

Requirements of shooting a ballistic weapon:
1. Point at mech.
2. Adjust for travel time (lead) if mech is moving.
3. Click.
4. Profit.


Requirements of using LRMs on non-ECM target without a spotter:
1. Point at mech (long enough to achieve lock).
2. Determine if your missiles have clear flight path.
3. Determine if target mech can easily get behind cover based on flight time. (Longer the distance, the more time they get.)
4. If steps 2 and 3 are go: Click.
5. Maintain visual lock (reticle on target) for 2-7 seconds during missile flight time. (Pray a little bit because now they have warning.)
6. If step 5 worked out: Profit.

Requirements of using LRMS on target without ECM, without Line of Sight:
1. Wait for radar signature:
2. (Attempt to predict if the signature will last long enough for flight time.)
3: Attempt to divine if the flight path is clear, and the target will not be able to get to cover.
4: If 1, 2, and 3, seem like good odds and are "go": Click.
5: Hold reticle on red box and internally count to 8- if you get to 8 and have no hit marker, Start from 2: If you lost target, start from 1.
6: If all successful: Profit.

Requirements of using LRMs with LoS on ECM target:
1: Point TAG laser at mech and wait for lock.
2: Steps 2 and 3 from non ECM target)
3: (If steps from 2 are go): Maintain TAG laser on target and Click.
4: Maintain TAG laser on target for 3-7 seconds.
5: Profit.

Requirements of using LRMs without LoS on ECM target:
1: Hope friendly with TAG is willing to help you (and can do steps 1 and 4)
2: If not.. N/A.

---------------------------------
It is just as easy to click and fire a PPC as it is to Click and fire LRMs..
It is Easy to hit a target with a PPC with Line of Sight
It is more difficult to hit a target with LRMs regardless of anything.. especially since the target is warned they're being fired upon.
-------------

I would argue that using direct is much easier, but LRMs are CAPABLE in non-LoS situations.

[Joseph Mallan]

Seyla Livewyr.

[Ihasa]

Livewyr, on 03 May 2013 - 06:34 AM, said:

By "easy mode" i can assume you mean "minimal requirement." (That being the closest relative definition of ease.)

<snippy for brevity>

Requirements of using LRMS on target without ECM, without Line of Sight:
1. Wait for radar signature:
2. (Attempt to predict if the signature will last long enough for flight time.)
3: Attempt to divine if the flight path is clear, and the target will not be able to get to cover.
4: If 1, 2, and 3, seem like good odds and are "go": Click.
5: Hold reticle on red box and internally count to 8- if you get to 8 and have no hit marker, Start from 2: If you lost target, start from 1.
6: If all successful: Profit.

Requirements of using LRMs with LoS on ECM target:
1: Point TAG laser at mech and wait for lock.
2: Steps 2 and 3 from non ECM target)
3: (If steps from 2 are go): Maintain TAG laser on target and Click.
4: Maintain TAG laser on target for 3-7 seconds.
5: Profit.

Requirements of using LRMs without LoS on ECM target:
1: Hope friendly with TAG is willing to help you (and can do steps 1 and 4)
2: If not.. N/A.

---------------------------------
It is just as easy to click and fire a PPC as it is to Click and fire LRMs..
It is Easy to hit a target with a PPC with Line of Sight
It is more difficult to hit a target with LRMs regardless of anything.. especially since the target is warned they're being fired upon.
-------------

I would argue that using direct is much easier, but LRMs are CAPABLE in non-LoS situations.

I logged in just to like your post and quote the highlited part. It made me really lol.

It's true it's not easy being a good missile carrier. There's a lot of factors involved. Now the stalker boats with 5 tons of ammo that just launch and launch, maybe not so much, but they are almost extinct.

Edited by Ihasa, 03 May 2013 - 10:10 AM.

[DocBach]

this is the problem - ECM itself has not changed. instead of fixing a festering infected wound we just keep putting more bandaids over it. You can buy all kinds of different neosporins like TAG and Beagle and PPCs but if you forget to apply them you still got a festering infected wound.

[Barnaby Jones]

Livewyr, on 03 May 2013 - 06:34 AM, said:

By "easy mode" i can assume you mean "minimal requirement." (That being the closest relative definition of ease.)


Requirements of shooting a laser weapon:
1. Point at mech.
2.Click
3.Hold reticle on mech for about 1 second or less.
4.Profit.

Requirements of shooting a ballistic weapon:
1. Point at mech.
2. Adjust for travel time (lead) if mech is moving.
3. Click.
4. Profit.


Requirements of using LRMs on non-ECM target without a spotter:
1. Point at mech (long enough to achieve lock).
2. Determine if your missiles have clear flight path.
3. Determine if target mech can easily get behind cover based on flight time. (Longer the distance, the more time they get.)
4. If steps 2 and 3 are go: Click.
5. Maintain visual lock (reticle on target) for 2-7 seconds during missile flight time. (Pray a little bit because now they have warning.)
6. If step 5 worked out: Profit.

Requirements of using LRMS on target without ECM, without Line of Sight:
1. Wait for radar signature:
2. (Attempt to predict if the signature will last long enough for flight time.)
3: Attempt to divine if the flight path is clear, and the target will not be able to get to cover.
4: If 1, 2, and 3, seem like good odds and are "go": Click.
5: Hold reticle on red box and internally count to 8- if you get to 8 and have no hit marker, Start from 2: If you lost target, start from 1.
6: If all successful: Profit.

Requirements of using LRMs with LoS on ECM target:
1: Point TAG laser at mech and wait for lock.
2: Steps 2 and 3 from non ECM target)
3: (If steps from 2 are go): Maintain TAG laser on target and Click.
4: Maintain TAG laser on target for 3-7 seconds.
5: Profit.

Requirements of using LRMs without LoS on ECM target:
1: Hope friendly with TAG is willing to help you (and can do steps 1 and 4)
2: If not.. N/A.

---------------------------------
It is just as easy to click and fire a PPC as it is to Click and fire LRMs..
It is Easy to hit a target with a PPC with Line of Sight
It is more difficult to hit a target with LRMs regardless of anything.. especially since the target is warned they're being fired upon.
-------------

I would argue that using direct is much easier, but LRMs are CAPABLE in non-LoS situations.

I thank you kindly for the perfect response to the "LRMs require no skill" line of ******** we have been hearing forever.

and like Ihasa, I logged in just to like it.

[Livewyr]

Ihasa, on 03 May 2013 - 10:09 AM, said:

<Thank you >

. Now the stalker boats with 5 tons of ammo that just launch and launch, maybe not so much, but they are almost extinct.

Yeah.. Stalker missile boats and Atlas missile boats are disgusting (and IMO, a waste of an assault mech..)

I once drove a 4 LRM20 Stalker because I was pissed off.. (It really is a great mech for dealing with anger issues, only bested by the splatcat pre-Alpine) but the thing was a wate. While it could destroy an ***** Atlas, that one that charges you head on in the open, in three salvos, it was such as darned waste of an assault mech in every other scenario.

----------------
When I still used missiles, I carried a couple of 15s(+ Art), with 3 med lasers and a TAG on a C1 with an XL275.. it was a little devil... when missiles were good.

[Scryed]

Livewyr, on 01 May 2013 - 04:48 AM, said:

People don't care about ECM much anymore because people don't want to carry missiles at all anymore. (For obvious reasons among the missiles themselves...)

Thus PGI has made a very smart move regarding protecting their stance on ECM- whether it was intentional or not.


ECM is obviously overpowered and effectively crippled missile usage.
(Like breaking a finger at a knuckle)
Missiles have been nerf to uselessness regardless of ECM.
(Like cutting the whole finger off..)

Thus, no one worries about ECM (the broken finger) because missiles have been effectively removed(the finger has been cut off.)


Well played PGI.. well played. reCall of Mechwarrior IV: Jumpsniper Edition appreciates you.

Interesting signature.

[Joker Two]

And now, ECM will do nothing to Streaks, with the proposed changes to BAP. all the S-SRM-carrier needs to do is mount a BAP, and voila! This shows perfectly why hard counters are such a headache in a game, they don't actually fix the original problem (the power of LRMs and S-SRMs) they just sweep in under a rug. And now the broom (ECM) will be hidden in the closet by the mop (BAP + S-SRMs).

[Umbra8]

So once again instead of fixing ECM itself they've modified another part of the game to deal with it. Now we will see the streakcat return in all its rage-inducing fury. I've always wanted an expanded role for BAP as it was a useless piece of equipment before, but this implementation is just as ill-conceived as ECM. The fact that ECM gives a passive advantage without penalty or skill (I personally think the team radar cloak is far more dangerous than the missile defence though they're both well out of line with cannon in any case) is the main game flaw with the equipment. BAP as a passive counter still requires the user to detect (the ECM mech is still invisible on radar) and close with the target to negate their passive ECM bonuses. The onus of engagement is still on the BAP equipped mech, and so is all the inherent risk. Until ECM is modified to involve some kind of risk vs reward it's going to remain unbalanced, regardless of what they do to other equipment.

[Livewyr]

Scryed, on 03 May 2013 - 02:55 PM, said:

Interesting signature.

Yup, put it the day they made their stance on ECM cement... and thus far, I still stand by it.

(Though there is hope given the newest hard-counter..just not much of it.)