275 replies to this topic

[Metallis]

Lostdragon, on 01 May 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

I PUG so I have some issues with capping. I understand why it is in the game and why it is a valid strategy, but sometimes you just get screwed. One memorable example was a conquest match on Alpine. Everybody on my team was in a heavy or assault and the enemy team wound up having three lights. The match ended with almost no damage done and nobody dead. If matchmaker actually worked it wouldn't be so frustrating but it seems like teams are never really balanced by weight. Some games it is pretty close, but sometimes one team outweighs the other by 300 tons, and that is not going to be fun for one side. If you have nobody who can make it to base to defend in time then you are also too slow to counter cap. Or if you are on the light team and it is full of idiots that get themselves killed by trying to take on a STK 1v1 head on in lights then you are going to get decimated.

Here is my question to this. When you're dropping in, do you not make note of the types of mechs dropping with you? If you're on alpine and you notice you have no light mechs why would you move far from your base? if you know you have a team of slow movers it seems to me you would set up a defense for cappers as well as waiting for the other mechs to come into view. When I drop I always make note of my PUG team compostion.

[Victor Morson]

Neverfar, on 01 May 2013 - 09:42 AM, said:

By "that guy" I mean that unwashed, unsavory, horrible, terribad person who is totally unskilled and dishonorable and with my scrub ways I can not help but cap-threat the enemy base.

Why do I do this horrible thing?

In most cases, because at least one Mech from the other team is expected to come and chase me, and preferably more than one. That means people from my team have less Mechs to clash with at the front. That improves the chances for a victory.

Rage often ensues. Which works in my favor. I need them chasing me, on me, trying to drive me off, which improves my team's chances that much more.

Sometimes I continue capping. Why do I do this horrible thing?

Because my team is losing. However, the enemy team is overstretched. In strategic abstract terms applicable to the setting, they took "a bridge too far" and were cut off from behind. In more direct "this game in the here and now" terms, they overinvested in PPC bloat boats with tiny engines and lost because everyone wanted in on that instead of preparing for me.

It doesn't always work. I've been legged from over a kilometer out by a good shot. That's fine. Sometimes I tangle with another light, and that's also fine. I actually welcome it.

What I don't welcome is the shrill nasal rage I get for doing what I do. I've heard it all before, in game chat and on this forum. Nothing you can say I haven't heard already, if you're coming from the camp of "the only honorable skillful way to play is to play exactly as I expect you to, on my terms, under conditions favorable to me".

I'd welcome some metagame changes, a whole lot of them. Removing capping or other "simple" solutions would only give me a lot less to do except feed the needs of the guy in the paragraph above.

You've basically described exactly how and why good teams use light 'mechs.

You should really check out the hiring hall or one of the house unit threads. I bet they'd like to have someone willing to do what it takes to do to win, it's the mark of a good scout pilot. We always welcome folks with your mindset.

Neverfar, on 01 May 2013 - 12:50 PM, said:

I'm so very glad to see I'm not the only strategic capper around! A brofist through the internet to all of you, and fight the good fight!

Sometimes the act of capping is less about a serious attempt to cap a base and more about forcing the enemy to respond. so yeah, the more folks interested in that kind of piloting the better!

If you're a light pilot and generally run like the OP, my recommendation to look up a unit goes out to you as well. Just about everyone, including us, could always use more scout pilots that do what has to be done.

NinetyProof, on 01 May 2013 - 12:36 PM, said:

When you say "team", your obviously talking out of context of this thread. I would hardly call random groups of 8 people that MM puts together a "team". Next time you are on a map like tourmaline, and the MM doesn't give you a single lite, try to get one of the puggies to hang back and "protect" the base ... then let me know how that works for you huh?

The fact a lot of puggers can't figure out to defend their base is not the fault of the light pilot. Period.

[Volthorne]

Cubivorre, on 01 May 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

Well said, fellow capper-in-arms.




But Garth, you couldn't even find it in your heart to like that man's post? D:

For shame.. For shame.

It's okay, I'm not a 'like'-junkie. He can save his 'likes' for people who actually need them.

[Lostdragon]

Metallis, on 01 May 2013 - 01:15 PM, said:

Here is my question to this. When you're dropping in, do you not make note of the types of mechs dropping with you? If you're on alpine and you notice you have no light mechs why would you move far from your base? if you know you have a team of slow movers it seems to me you would set up a defense for cappers as well as waiting for the other mechs to come into view. When I drop I always make note of my PUG team compostion.

Looking at team comp is the very first thing I do. Sometimes I hang back a little to defend, depending on which stompy robot I am in. Half the time I do that no one shows up. The basic premise of assault is flawed as was mentioned earlier, so if you defend you might wind up sitting at the base doing nothing. Or on conquest if you defend your starting point the whole enemy team might roll up and annihilate you.

If matchmaker worked then it wouldn't be an issue in conquest because both sides would have fast cappers. In my opinion the whole premise of assault mode is flawed. There should be one base with one side defending and one side assaulting. Then you don't wind up with cap races or other un-fun crap like that.

[Metallis]

Lostdragon, on 01 May 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

Looking at team comp is the very first thing I do. Sometimes I hang back a little to defend, depending on which stompy robot I am in. Half the time I do that no one shows up. The basic premise of assault is flawed as was mentioned earlier, so if you defend you might wind up sitting at the base doing nothing. Or on conquest if you defend your starting point the whole enemy team might roll up and annihilate you. If matchmaker worked then it wouldn't be an issue in conquest because both sides would have fast cappers. In my opinion the whole premise of assault mode is flawed. There should be one base with one side defending and one side assaulting. Then you don't wind up with cap races or other un-fun crap like that.

/

I can see your point during a conquest match, trying to defend and a mass team attack hits you. And if your team did not get many lights to help you speed cap, your only option then is to wipe out their mechs for the win. Thats a tough road depending on how many lights they have. So I feel you on that front. That's a situation beyond your control. But the other 95% of the time communication, planning are the items of the day.

[Dazzer]

capping should be removed from assault. Assault should be a too the last man battle. If you want to play a capping game you have conquest.

[Lostdragon]

Metallis, on 01 May 2013 - 01:39 PM, said:

/

I can see your point during a conquest match, trying to defend and a mass team attack hits you. And if your team did not get many lights to help you speed cap, your only option then is to wipe out their mechs for the win. Thats a tough road depending on how many lights they have. So I feel you on that front. That's a situation beyond your control. But the other 95% of the time communication, planning are the items of the day.

Good luck with that in a pure PUG with no voip.

[Cubivorre]

Volthorne, on 01 May 2013 - 01:31 PM, said:

It's okay, I'm not a 'like'-junkie. He can save his 'likes' for people who actually need them.

But you sir, made a good quote. I'm gonna use it as well. You deserve likes for it. LIKED whether you like it or not.

[BlackWidow]

Roland, on 01 May 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

Just so you know, the majority of this game actually involves NOT sitting in a red square.

As such, there is a lot to do, if you are actually interested in fighting other robots.

And like the OP, when I am playing a LIGHT, I am a shameless base capper. The Majority of the time, as OP did, it's to pull mechs away from their group giving my team an advantage. Actually, what I love to do is take their base down to the last sliver or two. This way, if it looks like we are going to lose all of our mechs, a simple 10 second toe in the MAGIC RED SQUARE wins.

Well, I've been in closed beta since the 2nd wave. And I've played all the chassis. Against all the other chassis. I'm not great (by looking at my KTD) but I'm pretty good. (by looking at my win/loss ration) I have a pretty good handle on where my skills stack up and until more mechs/maps come out I don't need to stretch that much further.

What I *do* need to do, in preparation for CW is learn how to WIN. Yes, we all like punching giant robots in the face. But, I like winning with a team coordinated effort just as much. Do they need more maps. Yes. Do they need more game modes/objectives? Hell yes. But, until such time I will do what it takes to win. Will I get less money? Yes. Will I get less money than a loss? Not in the least.

Read some Sun-Tzu. Winning without firing a shot, is the ultimate victory. But, going back to your "interest is fighting other robots" let's get matchmaking working, then we'll talk. Or better yet, have everyone take the same mech and same build and THEN lets see who's better.

Until then, there is too much randomness (mech selection vs map chosen, etc) in the game to even be splitting hairs.

A win is a win.

[NinetyProof]

Victor Morson, on 01 May 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

The fact a lot of puggers can't figure out to defend their base is not the fault of the light pilot. Period.

Lrn2Read?

You quoted me, and I was complaining about MM NOT giving the team a single lite (re: FAST).

But yes, if your bringing a lite, then I expect you to do your job ... puggie or no ... and yes, your job is to scout, harass base tag, and base defend ... generally speaking. And, part of your job is staying alive so you can do the other parts of your job :-).

I generally bring Big Iron ... and my job is to get the attention of the other mech(s), soak damage, and kill other big stompy mechs before they kill me or some of my team. Sometimes I bring brawlers, and then my job is to keep the little ankle bitters off the Big Iron, and to assist / flank the target so they die faster.

Then again, I have now been around long enough to know what needs to be done ... although, there are still far too many times when I just go face hug the enemy and die. When I do that it usually means I need a break. Watch House of Cards again?

[PropagandaWar]

capping is what it is. What I like is the guys that go right out the gate to cap. Now I no longer say don't chase the squirrel(s); I say kill em quick so we can nuke the rest of the party. Capping mid game makes more sense and only when your down. When your up its just plain stupid because that can turn the tide of battle right away.

Now if you can cap like we did the other night three of us mediums and one assult kept a team on busy on alpine. We came in from the back road from high mountain while another lance full of assaults/heavies went Radio tower. Beings we dropped against the same team and same map they were aware we were gonna flank so we switched it up. We diverted their entire team got 2 kills but our assault fell. We rerouted back to high mountain because we all go a avg of 90kph. From there we hit from the other side. They never saw the other slower lance. That lance manged to cap while their entire team was 3-4 grids away. We came back around and distracted them even though we were torn up from getting back to their base in time.

To me thats a good Cap. Not run on base no one responds and just run it through with your advance capture which is stupid and shouldnt be able to even start for the first 5 minutes of the game.

[NinetyProof]

Dazzer, on 01 May 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

capping should be removed from assault. Assault should be a too the last man battle. If you want to play a capping game you have conquest.

Suggestion: Turn ... On ... Brain.

Problems:

1) AFK somewhere
2) Last Man Standing that doesn't want a death so powers down in some canyon / crevice.
3) Griefer that just wants to run and hide to grief all the other players.

They pretty much all mean / equate to the same thing ... the winning teams wastes a whole bunch of time searching for the player and / or waiting for clock to run down.

That would be way worse then what we have now. Motion denied ... case dismissed. Oh wait, you didn't make a case that included logical / rationale / salient points ... nvm.

Edited by NinetyProof, 01 May 2013 - 02:00 PM.

[MrVop]

CAPIN makes no sense mech war wise.

You are alone, the enemy is still on the battlefield, you did some "******' space magic" and all of them decided to shut down and walk away?

The heck is that?

How about capin' turn on base defences and the enemy now has to fight through them to "uncap" and win the game. I dunno, but ******* something other then a no flag capture the flag HALO *********.

[blinkin]

MrVop, on 01 May 2013 - 02:02 PM, said:

CAPIN makes no sense mech war wise.

You are alone, the enemy is still on the battlefield, you did some "******' space magic" and all of them decided to shut down and walk away?

The heck is that?

How about capin' turn on base defences and the enemy now has to fight through them to "uncap" and win the game. I dunno, but ******* something other then a no flag capture the flag HALO *********.

kinda crusty and a little hard to follow, but i think i understand your point and kind of agree. the problem is all of the binary thinkers who say "we don't like capping, remove it!!!1!". there are an endless number of other options besides just throwing it away entirely.

i will almost never talk down even what i consider the dumbest of reworks, because people are trying to make interesting changes that expand the argument. the problem is the angry mobs that decide anything that doesn't work quite right needs to be thrown away.

i tend to be far more forgiving when people make suggestions that are more than nerf, buff, or throw it away.

[Tatula]

I'm pretty sure the idea is to ADD a TDM mode (or King of the Hill, or single base, or whatever) and leave Conquest and Assault the way it is.

[MrVop]

We have a place for death match when (or if, i dont know) arenas arive.
Objective play is what should make MWO different, better, smarter game. All I'm asking for is a complex difficult to program and impliment system be added to the game, otherwise its just another re skinned WoT and if I wanted to play that, I would go play that.

[Roland]

Neverfar, on 01 May 2013 - 10:37 AM, said:

Nice way to be condescending.

Let me try it in the same way to you: Just so you know, the majority of this game actually involves NOT standing around in the middle of the map whining that people won't walk up to get shot.

As such, there is a lot to do, if you are interested in being in a WALKING robot and not a stationary lump that might jump from behind cover once in a while.

You're just illustrating where your error lies.

You are presenting a false dichotomy; on one hand, you have capping enemy bases.. on the other, you have games where everyone runs to the center of the map and shoots each other.

This isn't a valid representation of the options.

Indeed, the capping mechanic is exactly what limits combat to taking place near the center of the map. Without the capping mechanic, combat is free to take place anywhere. You no longer need to be tethered to a little red square, and thus you are free to orchestrate complex maneuvers that use the entirety of the map's terrain.

[Psikez]

I like you OP.

[Lorcan Lladd]

Roland, on 01 May 2013 - 03:43 PM, said:

...thus you are free to orchestrate complex maneuvers that use the entirety of the map's terrain.

>Implying that evading a whole unkindness of RVN-3Ls in a humble CDA-3M or CN9-YLW, moving around the edges of the map to land directly on top of the enemy base without being seen isn't a complex maneuver.
>ohyou.jpg

[Roland]

Lorcan Lladd, on 01 May 2013 - 04:07 PM, said:

>Implying that evading a whole unkindness of RVN-3Ls in a humble CDA-3M or CN9-YLW, moving around the edges of the map to land directly on top of the enemy base without being seen isn't a complex maneuver.
>ohyou.jpg

It's really not.