275 replies to this topic

[Volthorne]

Neverfar, on 02 May 2013 - 10:27 AM, said:

I don't have a single medium in my garage, so its not self-interest to say that mediums need some love. Except Cicadas, they are basically lights and are OK right now.

Disagree. The Cicada is an over-sized Jenner and suffers greatly for it. When was the last time you saw one die from a Side Torso being blown off? How about any arms? The CT on the Cicada is way too big.

[silentD11]

Neverfar, on 02 May 2013 - 08:56 AM, said:

My side is NOT with one less helper. That "helper" is being much more useful stirring up trouble and forcing the precious sniper line of the enemy team to disperse to deal with me, than he would be simply adding another target to the priority roster.

I wonder if any of the teams I fought were premades, complete with vent and dull rigid coordination. I wish I could listen in.

"All right guys, finish off that Centurion, what a noob using a medium, lol..."
"BASE IS BEING CAPTURED."
"Wow, really? Really? Some bad is capping out base. Get on it noobs..."
"BASE IS BEING CAPTURED."
"He's some scrub in a Raven. Get him. WTF, guys?"
"BASE IS BEING CAPTURED."

And so on. Imagining that rigid little formation of primary-calling PPC boats dissolving into the blame-game because no one bothered to consider someone would capture the base. Who wants to be that guy? It's dishonorable™ and takes no skill™ to do so, and its a menial task below that of elite™ players to go back and handle me.

When dropping premades if we notice we have no lights. We're going to move up slower and just wait around a bit to see what's going on with someone slightly hanging back. We don't really gripe about it, whoever's the fastest and farthest back is going to head back. It's usually "ah crap, capper I'm going", no arguing or bickering about who's going to do it and nine out of ten times someone is going to do it volunatarily as soon as it starts. Our cappers also usually tell the rest "ok I'm in position let me know when you want me to start the cap" and then will wait there cracking open a beer for the call to be made.

On the other hand, I've seen some fantastic epic breakdowns in the in game chat of blame placing with the usual "I'm an assault I don't stop caps" lobbed around fairly liberally.

Neverfar, on 02 May 2013 - 08:56 AM, said:

My side is NOT with one less helper. That "helper" is being much more useful stirring up trouble and forcing the precious sniper line of the enemy team to disperse to deal with me, than he would be simply adding another target to the priority roster.

I wonder if any of the teams I fought were premades, complete with vent and dull rigid coordination. I wish I could listen in.

"All right guys, finish off that Centurion, what a noob using a medium, lol..."
"BASE IS BEING CAPTURED."
"Wow, really? Really? Some bad is capping out base. Get on it noobs..."
"BASE IS BEING CAPTURED."
"He's some scrub in a Raven. Get him. WTF, guys?"
"BASE IS BEING CAPTURED."

And so on. Imagining that rigid little formation of primary-calling PPC boats dissolving into the blame-game because no one bothered to consider someone would capture the base. Who wants to be that guy? It's dishonorable™ and takes no skill™ to do so, and its a menial task below that of elite™ players to go back and handle me.

When dropping premades if we notice we have no lights. We're going to move up slower and just wait around a bit to see what's going on with someone slightly hanging back. We don't really gripe about it, whoever's the fastest and farthest back is going to head back. It's usually "ah crap, capper I'm going", no arguing or bickering about who's going to do it and nine out of ten times someone is going to do it volunatarily as soon as it starts. Our cappers also usually tell the rest "ok I'm in position let me know when you want me to start the cap" and then will wait there cracking open a beer for the call to be made.

On the other hand, I've seen some fantastic epic breakdowns in the in game chat of blame placing with the usual "I'm an assault I don't stop caps" lobbed around fairly liberally.

[Roland]

Neverfar, on 02 May 2013 - 09:02 AM, said:

You never mentioned anywhere in your "easy" coding how you would deal with the inevitable griefers that would go into the match just to power down and hide somewhere (perhaps using jump jets to be especially remote), stretching things out for 10 minutes.

I wouldn't do it, but I'm certain more than a few will. Whatever the solution is for that, it would take a lot more coding than you're suggesting.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Those who offer simple solutions to complex problems are selling wishful thinking in most cases.

There is currently a boolean check taking place, which is determining whether or not to start ticking down the base's cap.

In order to create an effective TDM mode, while eliminating griefing, you simply extend that boolean expression by anding it together with an addition check, such as checking to see if the number of enemy team members killed is more than half of them. (a number which is, clearly, easily accessible) That would be a fairly simple check.

Or, alternatively, you could simply modify the cap rate (something which is already changable as seen by the cap module) based on the number of remaining enemy players. The fewer enemies alive, the faster you cap.

Seriously, there's really no way such a change could be that complex, unless the system is coded in a ridiculously terrible way.. but I can't imagine how it's even possible to have coded it in such a terrible way that modifying the cap conditions or rate based on easily accessible information about the game state would be difficult.

Neverfar, on 02 May 2013 - 09:02 AM, said:

According to Roland's dogma, you're not playing right and limiting your tactical choices and generally setting off his "no True Scotsman" fallacies about how to play right by "fighting in a red square".

In the Book of Roland, you must not touch the sacred red square, because it violates Zellbringen. Oh wait, the Clans aren't in yet.

You seem eager to find someone to attack, despite the fact that I have said repeatedly that there is nothing wrong with you wanting to win via cap. I have no desire to prevent you from playing the game you want.

I just am not interested in playing that game myself.

[strongl3ad]

By the title of this post I assumed you were a 3L pilot.

Carry on man you've nothing to be ashamed of.

[saberrider]

"that guy" could have have fun with "these guys" in "that mode" as long as I would get a deathmatch mode with the "other guys".
seriously, guys.

Edited by saberrider, 02 May 2013 - 11:19 PM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

My dad and I like to play lights together when we've both got an evening free. One of our favorite things to do is to tell our team that we're going to skirt the field, get to the enemy base, and wait. Once the team makes contact, they tell us and we start capping. This either splits the enemy (giving a tactical advantage to our main force) or wins the game (if the enemy doesn't respond). Some times, if the battle is going well or is nearly even and nobody has come to stop us, we will stop the capture at a sliver remaining and move off to try to find and kill some enemies. If we get into trouble then, we try our best to rush back and finish up.

One of the most amusing aspects of this is the inevitable QQ that people start with in all chat. My response is that if they don't want to be capped, they should learn to defend their base. It's as simple as that. Keep a light in reserve to respond, send a fast medium back, don't push your whole team too far from home, etc. For that matter, try doing full-on base defense. Deploy around the base and murder the enemy team as they approach. This would royally screw with my dad and me when we move in to hit the base.

[blinkin]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 03 May 2013 - 12:12 AM, said:

My dad and I like to play lights together when we've both got an evening free. One of our favorite things to do is to tell our team that we're going to skirt the field, get to the enemy base, and wait. Once the team makes contact, they tell us and we start capping. This either splits the enemy (giving a tactical advantage to our main force) or wins the game (if the enemy doesn't respond). Some times, if the battle is going well or is nearly even and nobody has come to stop us, we will stop the capture at a sliver remaining and move off to try to find and kill some enemies. If we get into trouble then, we try our best to rush back and finish up.

One of the most amusing aspects of this is the inevitable QQ that people start with in all chat. My response is that if they don't want to be capped, they should learn to defend their base. It's as simple as that. Keep a light in reserve to respond, send a fast medium back, don't push your whole team too far from home, etc. For that matter, try doing full-on base defense. Deploy around the base and murder the enemy team as they approach. This would royally screw with my dad and me when we move in to hit the base.

you don't even need to keep a light in reserve. most good light mech builds can easily make it across the map before the cap is even half done, especially on the small maps. and plenty of other larger fast builds can readily make it back from the center. my 86kph catapult has no issues.

the bigger maps should probably have longer cap times, but that is the only concession i am willing to make as far as this is concerned.

[saberrider]

Neverfar, on 02 May 2013 - 11:31 PM, said:

"Seriously"? Seriously what? Are you implying that that somehow your opinion is serious business or that we all magically must pay it additional attention?You bloat-boats cant bloat-boat completely unfettered because lights exist and they don't always want to play it your way. Wah wah.

sorrry. it wasn´t meant to sound like a "my way is better as your way" post. it was even meant with a bit of humor. damn the internez.

all I wanted to say was: people liking capping should do that. I dont like it, so please give me a deathmatch mode. seriously :-)

and by the way: I dont use bloat boats. I like different weapons, even if they aren´t so effective as some of the bloat-boats.

[Cham King]

Neverfar, on 02 May 2013 - 10:06 AM, said:

Eh, I feel the same way about too many smilies as I do about tough-guy siguatures. Or ominous latin phrases. Or Sun Tzu quotes taken out of context. Or overuse/abuse of ellipses. Or links to totally-off-topic little japanese cartoon girls in creepy suggestive videos (looking right at you, you weeaboos).

I guess I have a lot of e-allergies.

This guy is alright.

[Belisarius1]

Neverfar, on 02 May 2013 - 09:11 PM, said:

As a Star Wars Galaxies vet going all the way back to launch (which was delayed by a day due to some day-one stability hilarity), I can tell you that I can give a few examples where changing an ART ASSET messed up something else drastically. Yes, an art asset. I'm talking glitches where vehicles started vanishing from inventories after a patch tweaked craftable item coloration. I'm talking adding little wings on an Ewok leading to a bug feeding frenzy, years and years later.

I don't buy your take on code, because I know a few coders myself and their most common gripe about game construction is how frustratingly intertwined everything can get, especially on a continually-developed product like an MMO.

You're assuming a lot, but considering the "my way is so simple and certain to work" attitude you've been showing from the start of your posts in this thread, I have to simply accept that.

It's... it's.... it.... quite literally, you take the cap points of both teams, you put them on top of a mountain where nobody can get to them, you maybe increase the timer a bit.

Bang. You have TDM. No coding required.

If you want a camp-proof TDM, I actually think the conquest modes have a lot of promise, but that's an entirely separate discussion.

Edited by Belisarius1, 04 May 2013 - 06:02 PM.

[Pater Mors]

When I get bored of the trudge to the middle, I enjoy sitting back at base in cover in my Highlander. Somewhere off the 'square' but where I can still see it easily and well within range of all my big guns. Powered down, I don't think I've ever had a single light notice me until it was far too late.

I'll catch you sometime Neverfar.

[Edson Drake]

I see no problem in capturing the base: it's a mechanic of the game, it's there for you to exploit it.

I think we're lacking an arena mode for sure, deathmatch if you will. It would be quite simple to implement it, why not?
Sure it sucks when you lose your base. It sucks when you were ready for a fight and a group mate cap your enemy base instead, but so what? I don't understand why so much rage about it.

[Belisarius1]

Neverfar, on 04 May 2013 - 06:15 PM, said:

This might work (pretentious ellipses aside), but I'd suggest a modification.

The pretentious ellipses were in response to the idea that TDM was some kind of hidden technical challenge. It's really not. Every single mechanic required for TDM is present in Assault, which is demonstrated by the fact that you can turn Assault into TDM in the most rudimentary map editor. Roland immediately identified this.

---

Neverfar, on 04 May 2013 - 06:15 PM, said:

Have a 3-cap system like Alderaan Civil War in Old Republic. You start with one base, but there's a second in the middle, and for the daring, you can try to cap the enemy starting base. 2 to score points, 3 for extra points over time. That'd do a lot of good to encourage mobility past the bloat boat thing.

A 3 cap system is really not much better than a 2 cap system. 3 caps force teams to move out of their bases and make it harder for one random light to win a lost game, sure, but those problems are side-effects of the current game mode and have nothing to do with TDM itself.

The advantage that TDM offers over Assault is the fact that it allows teams to interact when, where and how they like, rather than being limited to the regions which are relevant for control of two (or three) bases. This inherent limit is why many of us would like to see a mode without base caps.

The goal of any additional victory conditions in TDM should be to encourage teams to interact, which is a nice way of saying "shoot each other." The goal should not be to offer them ways to win without doing so; that stuff is for other modes, and that's fine. TDM is about shootin' dudes. The only time you need fancy rules is when the dudes in question refuse to be shot at.

Thus, cap points should become relevant almost solely when a team decides to camp somewhere and never move, forcing the opposition to come to them or die of boredom. In that situation, the non-camping team should be able to prove their dominance of the rest of the map by taking all the points and winning.

In any other situation, it should be next to impossible to win a TDM-style match without engaging and besting OpFor in some significant way.

---

Edited by Belisarius1, 05 May 2013 - 04:25 AM.

[Dazzer]

I tryed this rushed to they cap to fouce them to send some of they team to take care of my thus leaving a nhole in they gun line.

My own team said they would team kill me unless I ´stopped being silly´and join the teams gun line. Them they just stood they till the 4 mechs the reds sent after me killed me and returned to the reds line. AT which point the normal ´Í shoot-you shoot´ took place.

All the while I was being slagged off in chat mainly by my own team. I give up.

[Roland]

Neverfar, on 02 May 2013 - 09:11 PM, said:

I don't buy your take on code, because I know a few coders myself and their most common gripe about game construction is how frustratingly intertwined everything can get, especially on a continually-developed product like an MMO.

Well, as a professional software engineer who has worked on simulation systems far larger than MWO, I can tell you that my "take on code" is merely a statement of simple, obvious facts.

Neverfar, on 02 May 2013 - 09:11 PM, said:

You're assuming a lot, but considering the "my way is so simple and certain to work" attitude you've been showing from the start of your posts in this thread, I have to simply accept that.

Dude, TDM simply isn't that complex a thing to implement, given that you can observe all of the underlying mechanisms are already in place.

Software isn't some kind of black magic.

And really, if a TDM game mode is literally impossible to implement due to technical constraints, then the game is freaking doomed, because there's no way in hell that any of the community warfare mechanics have any chance of working in that case.

[Atheus]

Bloody hell, I just wrote about 1000 words in response to this, but by the time I hit the "Post" button it the stupid forums logged me out, so the whole damned response vanished into nothing. I guess cap rushers aren't the only ones wasting peoples' time.

[blinkin]

Neverfar, on 04 May 2013 - 06:15 PM, said:

This might work (pretentious ellipses aside), but I'd suggest a modification.

Have a 3-cap system like Alderaan Civil War in Old Republic. You start with one base, but there's a second in the middle, and for the daring, you can try to cap the enemy starting base. 2 to score points, 3 for extra points over time. That'd do a lot of good to encourage mobility past the bloat boat thing.

we kinda already have that. what you are describing is not very different from conquest.

[Ph30nix]

i have no problem with base capping, i have a problem with how base capping is currently implemented.

Id say make it take 2x as long as it currently does maybe longer and that will solve all problems.

its one of those things there is no true defense against it without leaving yourself wide open to something else.

Well in a PUG situation its impossible 8v8 premades is differnt. but no matter what you do, you have to leave yourself wide open for a horrible ammount of problems.

ive seen wolf packs of 3 lights drop together and all they do is wait till the fighting starts (on maps like alpine/tourmaline) and they jump on the point and cap. with 3 of them it over before enemy team can even react. leave 1-2 back to guard and either they focus fire them down and cap.

also with every guy you leave behind your that much weaker on front lines.

I dunno its just one of those things that when done TOO soon, ruins other peoples game best fix would be disallow capturing in the first say 3 minutes at least for pugs.

[Noobzorz]

Gevurah, on 01 May 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

So you felt the need to defend your honor by coming to the forums to make a big, long winded post that basically boils down to 'a win is a win'?

Yeah. Enjoy your micro-XP gain and 35,000 Cbills.

More to the point, it simply isn't economical unless you're trying to inflate wins. There's no practical value to just 'going after a win for the sake of winning' in this game. You get more points by participating in battle. You're literally only hurting yourself in that regards.

Side note, I think I'm the guy who told you not to be that guy. HOW'S IT HANGING BRO. I remember that game pretty well. It was river city. We had two down, they had two down. And you capped. I could see you from theta. I said "Don't be that guy" specifically because I was having a good run and thought "Maybe he'll be goaded into a fight." Truth be told though, the outcome was far from clear and the game ending was extremely preemptive. I have only ever slung that at one other guy, in alpine in a virtually identical situation; albeit at longer ranges.

I have *NO* qualms about capping if your team was wiped out or if you're facing an impending landslide. Cool. Not a problem. But capping early just to secure a win is pretty bleh.

I suppose it could have been someone else. But I'm reasonably sure I saw your name in that game lol

If this ever gets popular enough to be self sustaining, I hope they ban people like you.

"HEY GUYS, PLAY FARMVILLE: MECHWARRIOR EDITION WITH ME. HURR HURR. YOU'RE ONLY HURTING YOURSELF BY PLAYING THE GAME AS INTENDED FOR THE PURPOSES OF ENJOYMENT."

[Pater Mors]

I bought a Jenner solely based on this thread (my first light) and decked it out with SPL's SSRMs and an XL300.

I made a guy cry and quit the game last night. Like... literally. I did exactly what the OP does (half cap to draw some back) and immediately got a torrent of verbal abuse from the opposing team. They sent one, already damaged Trebuchet back to get me which I turned into scrap. They had the rest of my team beat by this time (3x Heavy Metal poptards on their team), but they were way too far forward to get to me.

One guy literally said after I called him a baby for sooking about losing, "WELL LETS JUST SEE HOW YOU LIKE IT IF I NEVER PLAY THIS GAME AGAIN." The tears of poptards are sweet indeed!

I don't care... It was the most fun I've had in ages! I think I've found my new favourite Mech!