58 replies to this topic

[hammerreborn]

Rackminster, on 01 May 2013 - 10:08 AM, said:

So by this, if I'm in an Atlas mood, I'd have to have 4 of them readied. I'm currently 40% of the way towards buying my third.

I prefer to spend each night I play in a specific chassis/class so I can get into a groove. Last night it was Atlas mechs. Tonight it might be Mediums or Catapults.



Man, what game do you play - or do you play so badly that you stare a 6xPPC Stalker in the face and let him line up a solid shot on your CT while you're in a Raven? There are no bad mechs, only bad pilots. Okay, some mechs aren't great and contribute very little - but they're all Commandos.

Lights are harassment units - they demoralize enemies by capping bases, fight opposing lights, distress snipers/LRM's, and bring down resource nodes better than anyone else.

Mediums make excellent flank and support Mechs, working to keep Lights off heavier Mechs and piling on damage to bring down targets. They're not worthless, not by a long shot.

Uh...a 6ppc stalker can hit the raven anywhere and basically core it (aside from arms/legs hit, but losing the leg is basically death anyways). The stalker also has a firing zone of ~1400m, while the raven needs to close in to 270 to inflict any real damage. On most maps theres only one or two real attack routes, and the stalker can cover them all pretty easily if he knows what hes doing.

Lights are always about one lucky/skilled poptard away from death. A 35 point alpha in the weakest poptard is more than or nearly enough to instantly core any lights front STs.

[Braggart]

hammerreborn, on 01 May 2013 - 10:41 AM, said:

Uh...a 6ppc stalker can hit the raven anywhere and basically core it (aside from arms/legs hit, but losing the leg is basically death anyways). The stalker also has a firing zone of ~1400m, while the raven needs to close in to 270 to inflict any real damage. On most maps theres only one or two real attack routes, and the stalker can cover them all pretty easily if he knows what hes doing.

Lights are always about one lucky/skilled poptard away from death. A 35 point alpha in the weakest poptard is more than or nearly enough to instantly core any lights front STs.

just wait til 12vs12 shows up. Even more people there to drop those huge alphas.

Edited by Braggart, 01 May 2013 - 10:44 AM.

[NinetyProof]

I am sure that the MM Logic is going to mature / get better over time. The thing that most of the people that suggest changes to the MM don't address is "queue times". The more *filters* / * conditions* you put on the MM the longer it takes to make matches.

Worse yet, the longer it takes, the more mis-matched the matches are. So yes, if you put more *conditions* on MM, then you should, most of the time, get better games ... but in converse, when the matches are *bad* they are going to be *roflmaostomped* bad one way or the other.

As far as 8 mans are concerned, and that is really where weight matching needs to happen, is that having a Lobby will help tremendously as we can "pre-arrange" fair match ups. And even adjust the 8 man load out based upon agreements.

A UI would be great: Drop as 8Man, Weight Tolerance: 40 tons. (meaning 40 tons over / under your group) ... but having a lobby will put a new dynamics on the game.

Conclusion: MM will get better, and changes to the game will almost make it a mute point.

[Zylo]

Braggart, on 01 May 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

match making can absolutely handle counting to 450 tons per team.

Perhaps people need to fill out their 4 slot mechs with different sizes to make it work. If they dont, then to make it work. they get tossed in with a trial mech.

Making players run mechs they don't want to play is certain to make many players quit this game.

[Braggart]

Zylo, on 01 May 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

Making players run mechs they don't want to play is certain to make many players quit this game.

I agree, which is why I'm tired of playing the game as it stands.

I quit playing basketball because they wouldnt let me be a guard.

Edited by Braggart, 01 May 2013 - 10:56 AM.

[Ricama]

Braggart, on 01 May 2013 - 10:12 AM, said:

If the game's population is small enough that we cant get a mixture of all classes and tonnages. The game is already on its way to dying.

I have pretty much had it with the game at this point, and many others are also. If people ask me about mechwarrior. My word of mouth for the game is not favorable.

It's not the size, it's the percentage. Larger player base just means bigger line for 'DPS' to wait through.

[One Medic Army]

Overall tonnage limits will kill the medium class.
Why? Because a Light and a Heavy will generally beat the crap out of 2 mediums.

[Braggart]

Ricama, on 01 May 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

It's not the size, it's the percentage. Larger player base just means bigger line for 'DPS' to wait through.

everyone assumes that more people want big mechs. how do we know that people dont run the big mechs in retaliation against other ones.

its not like lights or mediums currently have any use against good players. I have no problem legging or coring out a light light mech with a couple ppc volleys, nor do any other good players, and a medium is just asking to get 2 shot at this point.

I would gladly go back to a medium if i knew that the other team wasnt completely loaded with mechs what would drop me in seconds.

One Medic Army, on 01 May 2013 - 12:43 PM, said:

Overall tonnage limits will kill the medium class.
Why? Because a Light and a Heavy will generally beat the crap out of 2 mediums.

the game is not 2vs2. Also, the medium class has already been killed, without tonnage limits.

Edited by Braggart, 01 May 2013 - 12:45 PM.

[One Medic Army]

Braggart, on 01 May 2013 - 12:44 PM, said:

the game is not 2vs2. Also, the medium class has already been killed, without tonnage limits.

It will kill it even more, with tonnage limits you will actively be gimping your team by using up 15tons to be worse.
The game may not be 2vs2, but even 8v8 I'd rather have a team of Assaults, Heavies, and Lights, than one with those Lights replaced by Mediums at the cost of fewer Assaults.

[Braggart]

One Medic Army, on 01 May 2013 - 12:47 PM, said:

It will kill it even more, with tonnage limits you will actively be gimping your team by using up 15tons to be worse.
The game may not be 2vs2, but even 8v8 I'd rather have a team of Assaults, Heavies, and Lights, than one with those Lights replaced by Mediums at the cost of fewer Assaults.

Give me any evidence it will hurt medium play?

http://www.mechspecs...MLas-3x-SRM6%29

you are gonna tell me 2 of those are not deadly. Keep in mind that without all the heavies in the match, mediums actually get to use thier decent speed to flank and deal damage, and a medium can kill a light any day of the week if players have even skill.

People have been blinded to how good mediums are because the gameplay has shifted so far in favor of massive damage, that they forget just how deadly Mediums were many patches ago.

Edited by Braggart, 01 May 2013 - 12:54 PM.

[3rdworld]

In the Ask me Anything on Reddit Bryan said there is some form of drop limits coming to 8 mans.

His reasoning is that it currently sucks. So doing something > doing nothing. (I am paraphrasing).

[One Medic Army]

Braggart, on 01 May 2013 - 12:52 PM, said:

Give me any evidence it will hurt medium play?

http://www.mechspecs...MLas-3x-SRM6%29

you are gonna tell me 2 of those are not deadly. Keep in mind that without all the heavies in the match, mediums actually get to use thier decent speed to flank and deal damage, and a medium can kill a light any day of the week if players have even skill.

People have been blinded to how good mediums are because the gameplay has shifted so far in favor of massive damage, that they forget just how deadly Mediums were many patches ago.

With the current state of SRMs, yes I'd much rather have a Raven-3L or Jenner-F and a Catapult/Jagermech.
Also think of the mediums aside from the centurions. The rest of the medium class is bad enough right now, but at least you aren't actively gimping your team when you take one.

As to evidence, this is a logical extension based on personal observations, same as your assumptions that tonnage limits will help. Neither of us can provide any hard data because there is no hard data to support either position, thus we are forced to argue using assumptions and logically extending them to cover hypothetical situations.

Edited by One Medic Army, 01 May 2013 - 01:09 PM.

[Davers]

Braggart, on 01 May 2013 - 12:44 PM, said:

I would gladly go back to a medium if i knew that the other team wasnt completely loaded with mechs what would drop me in seconds.

This is the problem with medium mechs. If I may rephrase you, "I would gladly go back to a medium if I knew that the other team wasn't completely loaded with mechs that are just straight up better."

Heavy mechs can maintain competitive speed with Centurions and Hunchbacks while carrying better weapons and armor. They have better located hard points. When I flank an enemy in my Hunchbacks I start the grueling process of wearing them down with medium lasers and SRMs. Maybe one very vulnerable heavy ballistic. When I flank with an AC/20 Jager I can drop pretty much any opponent in 3-4 alpha strikes.

Saying that the only way to make mediums competitive is to force more people to play in mediums just acknowledges that medium mechs are just not that good. They don't have anything that they are really better at than another class. It's like pawns saying Chess would be more balanced if only there were more pawns and less knights, bishops, and rooks.

[Braggart]

Davers, on 01 May 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

This is the problem with medium mechs. If I may rephrase you, "I would gladly go back to a medium if I knew that the other team wasn't completely loaded with mechs that are just straight up better."

Heavy mechs can maintain competitive speed with Centurions and Hunchbacks while carrying better weapons and armor. They have better located hard points. When I flank an enemy in my Hunchbacks I start the grueling process of wearing them down with medium lasers and SRMs. Maybe one very vulnerable heavy ballistic. When I flank with an AC/20 Jager I can drop pretty much any opponent in 3-4 alpha strikes.

Saying that the only way to make mediums competitive is to force more people to play in mediums just acknowledges that medium mechs are just not that good. They don't have anything that they are really better at than another class. It's like pawns saying Chess would be more balanced if only there were more pawns and less knights, bishops, and rooks.

heavies and assaults will always be better, which is why in Table top mechs have Battle values, and those battle values had alot to do with the weapons and size of the mech. You could field more mediums than assaults, which gave you an advantage in that way, and the gap in firepower between mediums, and assaults were much less than what happens in MWO

Now Tonnage caps are the only way to do that in this game. I doubt we will ever see on purpose lop sided teams. Medium mechs were no match for heavies or assaults in table top, nor will they be in this. That leaves tonnage limits to equalize teams.

Edited by Braggart, 01 May 2013 - 01:15 PM.

[IceSerpent]

Braggart, on 01 May 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

How about tonnage limits(again).

A game where mechs of the same weight differ in terms of usefulness (I.e. not all Ravens are created equal) can not be balanced by tonnage.

[Victor Morson]

Yokaiko, on 01 May 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

Can't work because it requires a team.

....and CoD kiddies don't like teams.

I still hold the match maker should be able to put together as even a team as possible among searching 'mechs.

i.e.: It lets X number of people get into the que, looks at their weights, and then shovels them into games where their weights would bring the overall match total as close to even as possible among what's available.

Sure sometimes you'd get a bad tonnage mismatch, but I think it'd improve the overall experience drastically.

IceSerpent, on 01 May 2013 - 01:16 PM, said:

A game where mechs of the same weight differ in terms of usefulness (I.e. not all Ravens are created equal) can not be balanced by tonnage.

I agree with you strongly.

Every time this comes up I suggest one of two things. Either a BV system (which is obviously ideal since it can rate 'mechs based on equipment too), or adjusted tonnage where the matchmaker looks at some 'mechs, matching wise, as inferior tonnage. i.e. it counts a 4X raven as 30 not 35 tons.

Notably I'm talking about invisible pug matchmaking. 8 mans will require something different, and CW will likely provide that.

Edited by Victor Morson, 01 May 2013 - 01:18 PM.

[Braggart]

IceSerpent, on 01 May 2013 - 01:16 PM, said:

A game where mechs of the same weight differ in terms of usefulness (I.e. not all Ravens are created equal) can not be balanced by tonnage.

thats not a matchmaking problem thats a mech balance problem that has to be fixed. There should be valid builds for every mech in the game, and if there isnt, either remove the mech or fix it.

[Davers]

Braggart, on 01 May 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

heavies and assaults will always be better, which is why in Table top mechs have Battle values, and those battle values had alot to do with the weapons and size of the mech. You could field more mediums than assaults, which gave you an advantage in that way, and the gap in firepower between mediums, and assaults were much less than what happens in MWO

Now Tonnage caps are the only way to do that in this game. I doubt we will ever see on purpose lop sided teams. Medium mechs were no match for heavies or assaults in table top, nor will they be in this. That leaves tonnage limits to equalize teams.

Well the question is, if you can play whatever mech you want, who gets stuck with the bad mech? Do you want to play the mech that is 'no match for heavies or assaults'? Will tonnage limits make you buy medium mechs that can't compete with half the classes in the game? Mediums need to have something special and unique to bring to the field. Not just be a tonnage filler.

[Braggart]

Davers, on 01 May 2013 - 01:27 PM, said:

Well the question is, if you can play whatever mech you want, who gets stuck with the bad mech? Do you want to play the mech that is 'no match for heavies or assaults'? Will tonnage limits make you buy medium mechs that can't compete with half the classes in the game? Mediums need to have something special and unique to bring to the field. Not just be a tonnage filler.

I disagree. The reason mediums suck now is because of Mass amounts of heavy and assault mechs on the field. Considering the amount of firepower that is thrown around becase 3/4 of the team is massing weapons that straight up brutalize another mech in a single volley is a flawed game mechanic. Assaults are suppose to be deadly, well they are, and everyone wants to pilot one.

I am willing to beat that people want good and exciting combat, and that can be had whether its an assault vs assault, or med vs med or light vs light. I love light vs light, and med vs med fights. They are fantastic trading of blows and movement dodging and such. None of that matters when the other team is so full of mechs that will drop you in an instant if they are decent at aiming.

That will not change without tonnage limits. A medium will still be useless regardless of how many buffs it gets, when the other team is still all in heavies and assaults.

We are on the verge of 12vs12 which is going to add 4 more heavies and assaults to the match, which means we are gonna have another 10 or more PPCs on each team blowing each other up even quicker. Which makes the role of a medium or light even more less. Its hard enough to dodge 8 of them all the time, the idea that you gonna dodge 12 enemies any better is laughable.

With tonnage limits. We will be able to somewhat assume that the amount of firepower our team is going to carry is similar to the other team, and we are going to have a reasonably even fight. Something that cannot be said in the game currently.

Edited by Braggart, 01 May 2013 - 01:34 PM.

[Zerstorer Stallin]

I think PGI should add a module that when add to the mech allows you to be in a match where the weight difference in the teams is only 25 tons, they could sell it for 100mc or 100k cb's. The cb one will however make the spread up to a 100 tons.