37 replies to this topic

[Kitane]

Buffed (massively) NARC would be a solution for mechs with abundance of missile hardpoints and low or zero amount of energy slots like some Catapults. A1 has only missile slots, C4 has two CT energy slots, so equipping TAG leaves him with one MLAS/MPLAS...

Rule lawyers would be in no position to complain about NARC countering ECM (an exact opposite of TT), because TT ECM does not prevent LRMs, SRMs and SSRMS from launching and homing on ECM protected mech.

Edited by Kitane, 02 May 2013 - 04:39 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

They might have a use then. MIght still be too heavy.

I'd say:
- Double the Ammo per Ton
- Double the Miissile Speed
- The Narc works until the mech is destroyed (or at least until it loses a hit location).
- Narc works through ECM.

[Prezimonto]

Mustrum has summed up about what NARC would have to do to compete with TAG. I don't mind if a PPC would disrupt NARC and make it drop as well. I don't mind if the range is fairly short if the time limit is significantly extended.

[Zyllos]

NARC working through GECM (and future AECM) would mean that the current ECM is fine, which I personally think is extremely flawed.

ECM need it's relative power decreased with a drawback for non-ECM variants then buff NARC by removing the damage threshold removal and increasing the timer by 15.0s (to 30.0s).

[Galenit]

MustrumRidcully, on 02 May 2013 - 05:05 AM, said:

They might have a use then. MIght still be too heavy.

I'd say:
- Double the Ammo per Ton
- Double the Miissile Speed
- The Narc works until the mech is destroyed (or at least until it loses a hit location).
- Narc works through ECM.

I'd say:
- Double the Missile Speed
- The Narc works for 20 sec.
- Narc works through ECM.
- Narc gives position on radar and for lockon without los.

This way, its a real investment to use it (weight of launcher, low ammo/ton), but cater the role model a lot more.

ECM does a lot more then in tt, bap doesnt counter it like in tt, why should narc not do more then in tt?

Edited by Galenit, 02 May 2013 - 05:16 AM.

[Zyllos]

Galenit, on 02 May 2013 - 05:16 AM, said:

I'd say:
- Double the Missile Speed
- The Narc works for 20 sec.
- Narc works through ECM.
- Narc gives position on radar and for lockon without los.

This way, its a real investment to use it (weight of launcher, low ammo/ton), but cater the role model a lot more.

ECM does a lot more then in tt, bap doesnt counter it like in tt, why should narc not do more then in tt?

BAP did not counter it in TT. BAP only told the user if a mech had ECM in a double blind setting (which was very rarely played).

[Cycleboy]

Hobo Dan, on 01 May 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

I like it...

...but there is a group of people who demand NARC be countered by ECM in MWO because that's the way it is in TT.

Joseph Mallan, on 01 May 2013 - 10:01 AM, said:

Those folks are called rule lawyers.

Yeah... the same one's that wonder why in the hell ECM isn't working like in TT. If the ECM went back to the way it was originally designed, then none of the other items would need to be buffed to attempt to counter the "Shield of the Gods".

[Hobo Dan]

Cycleboy, on 02 May 2013 - 06:00 AM, said:

Yeah... the same one's that wonder why in the hell ECM isn't working like in TT. If the ECM went back to the way it was originally designed, then none of the other items would need to be buffed to attempt to counter the "Shield of the Gods".

I agree that if ECM worked like TT, there would be no problems with it. But PGI has stated they like it the way it is and any changes to ECM will be minor. That's why we suggest buffing things like NARC because they are not going to change ECM, it is here to stay.

[Cycleboy]

Correct. I'm responding to your quip about us complaining if ECM doesn't disrupt TAG. We are so far off the reservation right now they can do whatever they want. Hell, change the names on things and save on the MW licensure.

[MaddMaxx]

DocBach, on 01 May 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

Why can't we just have an ECM that isn't over reaching in its effects?

Like, literally, instead of changing everything else to fit PGI's version of ECM, why don't they just change ECM?

What is left for ECM fixes. Remove the Missile Lockout. Then you have a 1.5 ton piece of scrap that takes the enemy off the Mini map if they stay bunched up. Wonderful. OK, I know what you are going to say. Leave the Missile block in but make it a longer lock time.

Perfect, I like it. How long should the delay be? Should it be less at close range and longer at Long range? A 3 second delay be enough? 5 seconds perhaps? Trying to target a fast mover with Streaks and have to wait and maintain on that target for X seconds may prove to much for many.

ECM is brutal. Apparent Consensus, despite the current counters available to non-ECM Mechs include:

TAG (your Tag can assist others from range via non-direct fire mode)
Being within a Range band of some 70m to the ECM carrier. (lock achievable)
PPC and erPPC EMP (knocks out ECM for 4 sec)
your own ECM
The players Vision mode. (hit the "eye" key)

new upcoming "fixes" or changes

return of IFF for Friendly Mechs
be placed in a permanent slot location (destroyable)

Only thing missing. If it didn't block Missiles locks at all. Might as well pull the thing after that, it would be pointless.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 02 May 2013 - 08:42 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

MaddMaxx, on 02 May 2013 - 08:41 AM, said:

What is left for ECM fixes. Remove the Missile Lockout. Then you have a 1.5 ton piece of scrap that takes the enemy off the Mini map if they stay bunched up. Wonderful. OK, I know what you are going to say. Leave the Missile block in but make it a longer lock time.

You probably didn't see this coming:

Options, options options:
ECM could generate a 50 % chance for incoming missiles to lose target and deal no damage.
ECM creates false RADAR signals. Get into ECM range and suddenly you detect multiple radar signals. Maybe even going so far as to create fake lockable and shareble targets!

We're talking about a 1.5 ton item. Even if it just cloaked your minimap signal, it would still be overpowered compared to the machine gun.

[AnarchyBurger]

It is odd that so much has to be balanced AROUND ecm vs. actually balancing ECM. Personally I think one of the easiest ECM fixes is to keep all the same benefits. But actually split them up more between the two modes more.

Narc should be a streak like system with constant radar and uncounterable by current ECM (however if they did split abilities between the two modes, which they probably won't). It's the only way the system would get any play besides for kicks.

Edited by AnarchyBurger, 02 May 2013 - 09:52 AM.

[Kitane]

MaddMaxx, on 02 May 2013 - 08:41 AM, said:

...

Guardian ECM is supposed to disrupt minimap display (C3) and remove tracking and lock time bonuses given by Artemis/Tag/Narc. Nothing else, period.

That's more than enough for a 1.5ton module that does not even generate heat.

Edited by Kitane, 02 May 2013 - 10:43 AM.

[SirLickalot]

What gets me is that these things are supposed to weigh 166kg (6/ton). I mean, that's one heavy beacon! They should give armour bonuses, and slow down enemy mechs!

Hell, since we can't even try to run over-weight with weapons, 5 of them should just shut down any mech that hasn't burned at least a ton of ammo since the start of the match!

[Kaspirikay]

I have no idea why it gets overridden by ecm in the first place.

[hammerreborn]

Kaspirikay, on 03 May 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

I have no idea why it gets overridden by ecm in the first place.

Because its an electronic beacon. ECM stops the transmission of the beacon.

While TAG is just a range finding laser, which is why ECM doesn't block it. But within the ECM bubble the effected mech can no longer communicate with his team because of ECM, and thus tag is blocked within the bubble.

[Kaspirikay]

hammerreborn, on 03 May 2013 - 03:26 PM, said:

Because its an electronic beacon. ECM stops the transmission of the beacon.

While TAG is just a range finding laser, which is why ECM doesn't block it. But within the ECM bubble the effected mech can no longer communicate with his team because of ECM, and thus tag is blocked within the bubble.

Sure, if you want techno babble, but it sucks for game play.

[Joker Two]

hammerreborn, on 03 May 2013 - 03:26 PM, said:

Because its an electronic beacon. ECM stops the transmission of the beacon.

While TAG is just a range finding laser, which is why ECM doesn't block it. But within the ECM bubble the effected mech can no longer communicate with his team because of ECM, and thus tag is blocked within the bubble.

Actually, ECM drowns the NARC Beacon's signal in waves of static, but the end result (NARC being next to useless because of the preponderance of ECM) is the same.

They could say that the NARC was designed to be "louder" than the ECM signal, allowing it to be detected against the background noise, but this diverges even farther from both tabletop and real life.