62 replies to this topic

[Windsaw]

I've been piloting a Commando since way back in closed beta. Sometimes skilled other mechs, but always returned to the Commando. The only heavy I have been using for an extended amount of time is the Jägermech.

You know, I try to do what scouts are supposed to do: scouting, spotting, defending the base.
And I am getting sick of it.
Let me tell you why.

First, there is no used spotting anymore. That role has been so nerfed over time that neither is it rewarded enough for the risks, nor does it noticably affect the outcome of the battle anymore.

Second, the scouting. I have no problem with it. It is an exciting job. However, usually the job is done two minutes into the match. Am I supposed to be dead weight after that? Oh, I have tried to continue scouting and affect the game with it. Even if I manage to make out targets without being spotted, too often can't I do anything because some enemy has ECM. I stopped doing such scouting missions because it is rock-paper-scissors on ECM. Not worth the risk.

Third, the base defense.
I have done this a lot. Base was being capped, they cried "lights RTB" and I did. You know what happens all too often? At the base there isn't a light. Most lights just cap a short time and then move on. No danger. If the capping is serious, most of the times there are either one or more heavies or several lights at once involved.
And you guess what: Lights suck at point blank defense! For months I tried to block the capping long enough for reinforcements to arrive. Sometimes they do. Usually I am dead by then. But most of the times I just die and don't effect anything.

You know, I may still do my duty. If it were rewarded in any way.
Do I get rewarded for blocking capping? Not a single C-Bill!
Do I get rewarded for taking that risk? Nope!
How does my K/D-ratio change because of it? It drops!
You say K/D-ratio is a meaningless metric? Well, I used to agree, but now we have ELO. And if I understood correctly an ELO would be considered working when W/L ratio becomes 50%. Which means winning is also something not desireable. Not when my match score will always be at the bottom end.

Now, if I just choose to ignore a RTB I still have the opportunity to score kills, savior boni, kill assists. In short: I'm getting more of everything except the win. But in the long term ELO is going to take care of that for me.

I know, this must sound like I'm being a jerk to all those that I play with.
But I don't think I care anymore. We are lights. We are the pariahs of this game. No matter what I do, I get insulted by other players. Before yesterday, it's been three months since the last time I got a recommendation during the game. In the same time I have been insulted about fifteen times. Not necessarily personally, but since there are so few lights around anymore, it is usually clear who is meant. I've even been called a Trollmondo, even though I refuse to use ECM and streaks.

I changed my duty-driven outlook on my role as a light last week.
Right at the beginning of the match someone wrote "lights: if someone is capping, RTB".
I wanted to know if he ever played lights himself.
He wrote "cappin and cap defense - that is all you lights are good for"
So basically he is asking for me to do something dangerous to win the game and at the same time is insulting me.
I wish I could discount this as a single occurance.

So I will no longer be spotting: It is useless.
I will scout only at the beginning: More is dangerous but does not pay.
I will RTB, but only if at least one heavier mech assits me. Otherwise it is too dangerous and does not pay at all.

If I am already playing the pariah class, I may just as well live up to my reputation.

[Kommisar]

Bah!

Haters are going to hate. Don't let them get to you. There are groups out there that have no issue with a good light pilot... assuming he is on their side, of course. Find them and play with them. I recently stepped out of my assault cockpits and have been learning the ropes of the light mech. My group loves me and the agro I generate across the battlefield! Or my ability to slip in and cap a win.

I even run BAP on one of my Spiders just to max out my sensor range. And my guys appreciate it. Mind you, they are also fairly sharp guys and actually adjust their movements and tactics based on such information. Makes a difference. Does no good to call out 4 assaults moving if that lone friendly hunchback is still going to climb up next to the dropship to "see for himself."

Oh, another great trick is to use yourself as bait. You don't always get a bite; but when you do, you just lead them back to the biggest grouping of friendlies you can find. Or out into fire lanes your sniping assaults can see. So many guys get so tunnel-visioned in their hatred of us pariah-lights that they don't even realize you just led them into 3 mechs with PPCs. LOL

Find some teammates!!! That is where lights shine. And the haters can suck it.

[hammerreborn]

Scouts complaining that ECM prevents them from scouting are **** poor scouts.

And defending your base and getting a kill gives you a defender kill bonus

[Davers]

If you kill an enemy mech, or assist in it's kill, within 10 seconds of it being on a capture point you do get a Cbill reward.

[Windsaw]

Kommisar, on 01 May 2013 - 01:36 PM, said:

Find some teammates!!!

Basically, yes, I have team-mates. But playing in a premade takes time, and I usually don't have more than half an hour in a row.
Because of that I usually PUG.
In the team they appreciate my effort, and here I can even effectively scout, regardless of enemy ECM. Well, somewhat.
And I can call for backup at base defense early enough. In PUG games it just does not work.

hammerreborn, on 01 May 2013 - 01:41 PM, said:

Scouts complaining that ECM prevents them from scouting are **** poor scouts.

Question: How do relay target information back to your party? I mean, wasn't that what the 'R' button was for?
Do you take your time typing? Do you believe they will read it?
I've tried it. It doesn't work.

hammerreborn, on 01 May 2013 - 01:41 PM, said:

And defending your base and getting a kill gives you a defender kill bonus

If I ever got one I can't remember. Like I wrote: scoring kills during a base defense as a single light is really, really hard. Dying is much more likely.

[Chemie]

with no integrated VOIP, true scouting in pugs is useless.

Might as well drop in an assault like everyone else. They have made lights and mediums useless in current meta....even in 8-man. Only forced RHOD drop weights allows for M/L roles.

[Metallis]

Windsaw, on 01 May 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

I've been piloting a Commando since way back in closed beta. Sometimes skilled other mechs, but always returned to the Commando. The only heavy I have been using for an extended amount of time is the Jägermech. You know, I try to do what scouts are supposed to do: scouting, spotting, defending the base. And I am getting sick of it. Let me tell you why. First, there is no used spotting anymore. That role has been so nerfed over time that neither is it rewarded enough for the risks, nor does it noticably affect the outcome of the battle anymore. Second, the scouting. I have no problem with it. It is an exciting job. However, usually the job is done two minutes into the match. Am I supposed to be dead weight after that? Oh, I have tried to continue scouting and affect the game with it. Even if I manage to make out targets without being spotted, too often can't I do anything because some enemy has ECM. I stopped doing such scouting missions because it is rock-paper-scissors on ECM. Not worth the risk. Third, the base defense. I have done this a lot. Base was being capped, they cried "lights RTB" and I did. You know what happens all too often? At the base there isn't a light. Most lights just cap a short time and then move on. No danger. If the capping is serious, most of the times there are either one or more heavies or several lights at once involved. And you guess what: Lights suck at point blank defense! For months I tried to block the capping long enough for reinforcements to arrive. Sometimes they do. Usually I am dead by then. But most of the times I just die and don't effect anything. You know, I may still do my duty. If it were rewarded in any way. Do I get rewarded for blocking capping? Not a single C-Bill! Do I get rewarded for taking that risk? Nope! How does my K/D-ratio change because of it? It drops! You say K/D-ratio is a meaningless metric? Well, I used to agree, but now we have ELO. And if I understood correctly an ELO would be considered working when W/L ratio becomes 50%. Which means winning is also something not desireable. Not when my match score will always be at the bottom end. Now, if I just choose to ignore a RTB I still have the opportunity to score kills, savior boni, kill assists. In short: I'm getting more of everything except the win. But in the long term ELO is going to take care of that for me. I know, this must sound like I'm being a jerk to all those that I play with. But I don't think I care anymore. We are lights. We are the pariahs of this game. No matter what I do, I get insulted by other players. Before yesterday, it's been three months since the last time I got a recommendation during the game. In the same time I have been insulted about fifteen times. Not necessarily personally, but since there are so few lights around anymore, it is usually clear who is meant. I've even been called a Trollmondo, even though I refuse to use ECM and streaks. I changed my duty-driven outlook on my role as a light last week. Right at the beginning of the match someone wrote "lights: if someone is capping, RTB". I wanted to know if he ever played lights himself. He wrote "cappin and cap defense - that is all you lights are good for" So basically he is asking for me to do something dangerous to win the game and at the same time is insulting me. I wish I could discount this as a single occurance. So I will no longer be spotting: It is useless. I will scout only at the beginning: More is dangerous but does not pay. I will RTB, but only if at least one heavier mech assits me. Otherwise it is too dangerous and does not pay at all. If I am already playing the pariah class, I may just as well live up to my reputation.

First off, giving you love from one light pilot to another. I PUG so I do my own thing but I at least tell my team what my intentions are. This includes Cap pulls. I am going to give up my trade secrets here but I feel it's necessary to prove a point. I will run solo or with my fellow light wingman and take the long route to cap a base. If I have a ECM mech I don't have to hug the out of bounds border as much to avoid radar contact. But here is the thing that I have noticed. Every Pug does the same thing each fight. If im in the frozen city area I know maybe one person will check the tunnel and the rest will lounge at the wreck. This leaves the gully open for me and my friends. Why dont people send scouts to check these areas to stop cappers? Every team does the same thing and complain about cappers.

When I decide to scout I am usually in my ECM mech where I will use one of the routes that I know no one will be at and i get behind enemy lines and start hitting up targets behind mountains for my LRMs. I call the target and hope they will launch. Or I will go into the route areas where I know lights will come to cap and I engage them there. But people are creatures of habit so while everyone on the Alpine map is rushing to Epsilon, I'll be taking the scenic route to your base. If they won't change neither will I.

Edited by Metallis, 01 May 2013 - 02:04 PM.

[Zerberus]

As far as I can recall, the only players that ever flamed me in my commando were the enemy team.... But I communicate to the team exactly what I plan to do at the beginning of the match as well as any time that plan may suddenly change (IN team text chat, not TS, literally stopping behind a rock to type for a second if I have to).

TBH, I have much more control over the battlefield and how things are going for which team in a commando than I do in any assault. I dictate where the party is going on, not the enemy team, and which tactical objectives are now important if they actually want to win an not just play "hulk smash robots". If they ignore me and what I`m doing, they lose for sure. If they act on the changed tactical situation, my team or I can spread them out and focus them one by one.

Win/Win for my team, and I couldn`t give a rat`s *** what the enemy thinks, becasue, well, they`re the ENEMY?

Edited by Zerberus, 01 May 2013 - 02:12 PM.

[Denno]

Op, I think the answer to your ills is joining a group of non-******* on voice and do 4 mans and even 8's. There are plenty around. Not to mention you will usually then have another wingman.

[FunkyFritter]

Lights mechs have to be played aggressively in this metagame. Scouting is a great asset to let your team know where the enemy force is moving initially, but it's not enough to justify a team slot. You need the firepower to either crush enemy lights or severely punish anything bigger that isn't focusing it's attention on you. Think of your mobility as a weapon rather than a means of escape, it allows you to threaten caps on heavy lineups and sacrifice sustained fire for alpha damage.

The mindset that lights are exclusively scouts or support units is an artificial limitation you've put on yourself, you'll have to think past it to succeed. They're small, fast and have comparable heat output to larger mechs thanks to engine dhs. Those are all very potent tools, it's up to you to use them effectively.

[Deathlike]

I've suggested c-bills and XP bonuses for stuff that a scout would get, but nary a word (well, outside of a few comments from others). That is a separate discussion.

The real issue is the current meta requires a significant and inordinate amount of skill curve to pilot lights. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but since we're sliced the fat from the meat, we're now cutting at the bone and every PPC/Gauss alpha hurts that much more these days.

You kinda knew it was coming anyways, but the current meta ironically makes the Jenner look all the more appealing (already mastered it)... people don't take the lights seriously enough (unless they are whining about them), so you need to find ways to make them take you seriously.. and that's where the light pilot's game is at.

[Arkus Bethla]

The grief comes in not being able to communicate in PUG land. Before ECM you'd ping the enemies and the group would know where they were and generally in what numbers so you were appreciated (yes I appreciated it, thanks). I have noticed lately that in my ELO bracket every single mech isn't always under ECM cover so the odd time a light still gets to fill this scouting role but no one bothers paying attention any more because its so rare to get any info.

Now, like you say, unless you are in a group its not possible to do your role as a scout because by definition it implies communication and the primary PUG mechanism for communication has been removed. No sane light pilot types chat - and its even worse than it used to be as chat locks out control AND ALSO puts your speed to zero. (thanks for that neat "feature" btw)

I don't run lights much as a PUG but when I do, I don't bother trying to fill the light role myself. I pair with another light or a fast medium and hope he's on TS relaying information. If not at least we can hunt down any loner mechs, take caps or defend caps without feeling totally useless.

A possible solution (probably a lot of programming work) is to give the mechs the ability to ping visible targets, like tag without any cool effects. Have these targetted mechs show on the map as last seen for a few seconds. Now you have communication again and scout pugs with lights makes sense. Make BAP do this automagically inside a certain radius and ECM has an equally cheap counter which is what it sorely lacks.

[Traigus]

Just posted this in another thread, but it is actrualyl better here.

-------------------------

Know what the #1 thing that is keeping lights off the field with my friends and I?

Can't make any money with them on a regular basis.

]I'm mostly a medium pilot,

I make just enough to grind up more mechs.in a very slow way.

[color=#959595]My heavies easily make more money, but i don't like them as much... played a lot on the heavy/jager weekend. made buckets of money.

I am now back to the medium grind.

My lights, while fun to play never make enough money to advance my grind.


4 matches in a row on tourmaline and then 3 more on alpine. In Conquest, I single handedly, or with another light or fast med guaranteed a 750 point win (ussing my founders jenner or my com 3A)

My reward averaged around 75 damage points and cbillls/xp to match. I bet my friend I could make more cbills in 4 games than those 7 with stock hunch G . and I did, averaging about 270 damage, and all 3 matches being wins.. (though 1 of them was river city night not a big map).

Only die-hards play lights and Meds ATM.** Certainly not where the rewards lie.


**Rumor has it all Spider pilots are dunk and/or high.


Edited: to remove color tags from cut n' paste.

Edited by Traigus, 01 May 2013 - 03:35 PM.

[Nauht]

Play your own game and what's fun for you. Everybody else is just chaff.

If the team is good and know what they're doing then you'll probably have more fun and a better game contributing.
If the team is bad and have nfi then it's more fun for me to do my own thing in my own game.
I'm certainly not gonna take a gauss rounds for the clueless.

You owe those randoms absolutely nothing.

Blah, blah it's a team game - for only about 7 mins then you'll be put in another random, then another ad nauseum.

Ignore the comments. Sticks and stones, water off a ducks back and all that. At the end of the night when you turn off your machine they mean absolutely nothing. But you'll remember whether you had fun or not.

[hammerreborn]

Windsaw, on 01 May 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

Question: How do relay target information back to your party? I mean, wasn't that what the 'R' button was for?
Do you take your time typing? Do you believe they will read it?
I've tried it. It doesn't work.

Type, or the greatest target relay information ability, the TAG.

Quote

If I ever got one I can't remember. Like I wrote: scoring kills during a base defense as a single light is really, really hard. Dying is much more likely.

Well...that just means you need to get better, to be perfectly honest.

[silentD11]

Base defense is really not the job of a light. It's a job of a medium/heavy. A dragon, fast hunchback, centurion, are far better at pulling the old RTB. Not only are good ones more than a match for a light, but they aren't useless on the front lines and usually move fast enough that if they hang slightly behind the main fight, they can either join that or rush back if needed.

The issue is, nobody plays them. Because in the current "we must TDM, TDM, TDM!" meta. If you want to TDM, you're better off taking the FOTM build because FOTM is always whats best for TDM. So the other mechs that should be handling your RTB issues, are ditched by everyone that wants to play TDM leaving you, kinda screwed.

Really the best thing a light can do is break crap up now. Rush their base and start capping, force them to come back. If you can fight, do it. If not bolt back to your team and leave them stranded there while you fight with your team. if they don't come back, just say screw it and get your capture.

[Zerberus]

Traigus, on 01 May 2013 - 03:33 PM, said:

**Rumor has it all Spider pilots are dunk and/or high.

Now I know why I keep thinking "I need a Spider", thanks for finally convincing me

Edited by Zerberus, 01 May 2013 - 04:35 PM.

[silentD11]

Zerberus, on 01 May 2013 - 04:35 PM, said:

Now I know why I keep thinking "I need a Spider", thanks for finally convincing me

This applies to many if not most groups of light pilots. They are all straight up blasted.

[Zerberus]

I`m actually an atlas pilot with a speed addiction, the commando was originally just for a NoS fix (What`s the rule? 2 hits a day, right? ).... but it`s grown on me much more than I expected or wanted, and now I just want something ******* insane like a spider with 12 jjs 4mgs and a parachute big engine

Edited by Zerberus, 01 May 2013 - 05:33 PM.

[Prezimonto]

As a heavy pilot primarily, I decided I wanted to try a highly mobile mech good for scouting. I've now got basic's done for all 3 spiders and I can confidently say that this thread is exactly correct. The light pilot is rewarded, in a meaningful way, for only skirmishing, and because you're a light that means less potential damage output that any other class and less potential kills than any other class, and with HSR in the game in means I need to run and hide between shots, which means less opportunities for Savior and Defense bonuses.

LRM's are nerfed to the ground between ECM and lower damage, which makes TAG only useful for spotting ECM mechs. The spotting bonuses are a joke. Take a look at how World of Tanks rewards scouting, because it's a meaningful and large bonus to find the enemy and to actively spot (if you're the designated spotter you split rewards with the damager) the role is actually taken seriously.

Capping can win matches, but usually with a large number of complaints from both teams unless it's a last ditch effort becuase the rewards are MUCH worse than hanging in the fight and dishing out large damage. IF Repair and Rearm were in the game (and consequently knock-down drag out fights were balanced against having to pay for damage received) then capping wouldn't be such a bad option, but when R&R was removed they didn't rebalance the benefits for cap wins enough to offset gameplay choices.

Now look at the hardpoint selection for the Spiders and try to tell me they're designed for skirmkishing instead of scouting... 3 energy, 2 energy, 4 ballistic(read mg or 1 ac2 or 5) and 1 energy... energy slots in center torso only for 2 variants.... these mechs can pack a tag ONLY at the expense of 1/3 to 2/3 or more of their damage potential... but their hardpoint layout is **** poor for bank shots and quick skirmishing without a large amount of skill. I just can't believe they would put the spider (a rare mech cannonically) into the game if they didn't believe there was a role for primary scouts.

So where are the in-game rewards for this type of game play?