75 replies to this topic

[silentD11]

On the other hand the catapult has one of the hardest to hit side torso's making mounting XLs in them pretty safe, and a great turning radius. Let's keep in mind that several of the most griped about mechs, gaussapult, ac20pult, streakcat, splatcat were catapults.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

It's a second line indirect fire support mech. It was designed for maximum visibility, so the cockpit is big. It's relatively quick, well armored and has great torso twist. Pretty sure it's fine.

[Kaspirikay]

I find jjs protect my cockpit quite swimmingly.

[Infosus]

AntiCitizenJuan, on 02 May 2013 - 03:27 PM, said:

It's a second line indirect fire support mech. It was designed for maximum visibility, so the cockpit is big. It's relatively quick, well armored and has great torso twist. Pretty sure it's fine.

Agreed, but the cockpit still doesn't need the giant hit box, the mech already has a giant easy to hit upper torso which means it goes down quick. It is after all a fire support mech but it doesn't mean it needs two weakness one the over shadows another.

Edited by Infosus, 02 May 2013 - 06:12 PM.

[silentD11]

Infosus, on 02 May 2013 - 06:11 PM, said:

Agreed, but the cockpit still doesn't need the giant hit box, the mech already has a giant easy to hit upper torso which means it goes down quick. It is after all a fire support mech but it doesn't mean it needs two weakness one the over shadows another.

Make the side torso's wider so it can't get more millage out of an XL than most other mechs and I'd agree. Till then, the huge cockpit is the cost of that ability, IMHO.

[blinkin]

Infosus, on 02 May 2013 - 06:57 AM, said:

i won't lie i don't really don't know too much about MW lore but i always thought cats had a small horizontal line type cockpit like the jagermech

I did say i do torso twist doesn't really help

it really depends what artist is drawing it at the time, just like most any other mech.

the MWO interperetation seems to be fairly true to all of the models and art work i have seen though.

as far as the rest i think the cockpit needs to be that size to offset the amazing brawling power of the catapult. in return it gets incredibly tiny torsos that take away most of the risk for running an XL engine.

and as far as the new patches nerfing the catapult: i played my C4 SRM cat and it seemed to rip through armor just as effectively as it ever did. 3 or 4 matches and i kept my standard 3-4 kills per match with 600-700 damage. as far as i could almost nothing had changed. i didn't have to hit my enemies more, and i didn't have to work any harder lining up my shots.

i am pretty sure the catapult is mostly balanced around it's brawling capabilities, and as far as i can tell those haven't been reduced one bit despite what the numbers say.

as far as long range, well in my experience LRM are just bad for pugging even when they are working properly. i do not run any sort of LRM boat unless i am online with people i know IRL. BUT when you do have good spotters the cockpit size is entirely irrelevant because you never have to actually come out of cover for anyone to line up that shot.

[Infosus]

SRM cats are really annoying >.< srry bro
I guess it works like dual ac 20's, the mech goes down really quick so they can't really shoot back
In my case, they get close to me and i don't have any big massive instant damage weapons so i have to run rings and shoot back
Thats when i have the biggest chance of getting my head shot off (mostly)

As for LRMs, they are very stupid and very very scripted in flight trajectory, regardless of spotting LRMS don't really track the terrain so much of the time they slam on the crest of the hill or don't follow a tracked target fast enough. In that case i have to pop my head out

[blinkin]

Infosus, on 02 May 2013 - 07:18 PM, said:

SRM cats are really annoying >.< srry bro
I guess it works like dual ac 20's, the mech goes down really quick so they can't really shoot back
In my case, they get close to me and i don't have any big massive instant damage weapons so i have to run rings and shoot back
Thats when i have the biggest chance of getting my head shot off (mostly)

As for LRMs, they are very stupid and very very scripted in flight trajectory, regardless of spotting LRMS don't really track the terrain so much of the time they slam on the crest of the hill or don't follow a tracked target fast enough. In that case i have to pop my head out

popping your head out doesn't really fix those issues (except when you have artemis, then it helps some). i have an LRM hunchback 4SP. when i am laying down LRM it is all about knowing the map well enough to know what terrain is around your enemy before you fire. often time my spotters will also tell me on skype how many of my missiles are getting through.

and if you AND your team are doing what they should be then you shouldn't be facing anything except maybe some light mechs and a few fast mediums. neither of those cases is a risk for an instant KO shot.

again it comes down to LRM boats being dependant on a decent team. they are very thoroughly support mechs.

[Infosus]

true about LRMs maybe I'm just nub and expect too much from them

Regardless of the mechs that break through, the head still gets whittled down very quickly. okay sure maybe i can get a jenner or something but by then most of the head armour may or may not be completely gone, which means when the other mechs eventually come the head has higher chance of getting destroyed first.

I have on occasion faced a mech win and have my head in critical state , with everything else is yellow. That is very annoying takes any the fun because then i have turn and twist like a ****** so the head doesn't get shot

[Slab Squathrust]

Here is my general assessment of head hit boxes in this game. Note: This evidence is purely anecdotal.

Awesome > Highlander > Jaegermech = Cicada >Catapult.

Some of these observational "statistics" may be purely due to sample size. For example the game currently seems to favor heavy and assault mechs. With the jaeger and highlander being the most recent additions I would expect to see more on the battlefield. I would expect more cats once missiles get their promised buff. Still I don't think the head hit box is that off. I don't seem to drop them with head shots nearly as often as other mechs. Interestingly, I have never killed a Trebuchet with a head shot, even though it seems relatively exposed. There are times I swear I hit the cockpit but i registers as CT. As a final note, Cicadas are really easy to head shot when they run straight at you. In my opinion the cicadia head hitbox is way too large as a proportion of total mech size.

[Profiteer]

Try piloting a Jager - it's side torsos are as big as a whole light mech!

+ a pretty big head in the middle of the CT.

Edited by Profiteer, 02 May 2013 - 08:51 PM.

[Infosus]

Slab Squathrust, on 02 May 2013 - 08:48 PM, said:

Here is my general assessment of head hit boxes in this game. Note: This evidence is purely anecdotal.

Awesome > Highlander > Jaegermech = Cicada >Catapult.

Some of these observational "statistics" may be purely due to sample size. For example the game currently seems to favor heavy and assault mechs. With the jaeger and highlander being the most recent additions I would expect to see more on the battlefield. I would expect more cats once missiles get their promised buff. Still I don't think the head hit box is that off. I don't seem to drop them with head shots nearly as often as other mechs. Interestingly, I have never killed a Trebuchet with a head shot, even though it seems relatively exposed. There are times I swear I hit the cockpit but i registers as CT. As a final note, Cicadas are really easy to head shot when they run straight at you. In my opinion the cicadia head hitbox is way too large as a proportion of total mech size.

My point was the potential to head shot a cat is a lot higher than most mechs. You may not have drop them but you must have at least remove some or most of the head armour at some point. Then all it takes is a couple of laser or acs to finish it off.

The cicada is a light mech so it relies on speed to move out of the way, so i guess that balances the it out although im not really sure. Just saying the big hit box is not necessary on the cat.

I dare say the cat is almost like the cataphrat (don't hate me)

giant upper body, easy to hit, giant looking cockpit but a small hit box.

the cat: easy to hit ct, giant looking cockpit but with a giant hit box

[Lefty Lucy]

FiveDigits, on 02 May 2013 - 06:14 AM, said:

It is one weakness of an otherwise very strong chassis.

Which catapult variant is very strong in the current meta? The number of catapults on competitive teams that are trying their hardest is pretty close to zero.

[Cyke]

There are lots of variables to balance a 'Mech's capabilities, including its default torso twist speed, default foot turn speed, acceleration, deceleration, etc (which are all affected by engine size, but the default multiplier can be tweaked). All these can be used to balance the good hardpoint sets and torso twist limit that the Catapult series enjoys.


There was a previous thread where a poster by the name of Seox pointed out a stroke of genius on PGI's 'Mech design.
Basically, 'Mechs can be split into two categories:
1) The head sticks out above the body, like the Hunchback and Centurion.
If a shooter tries to aim for the head and misses, his shot is likely to miss entirely.
If a shooter aims for the 'Mech's CT from long range, it will not get a lucky head shot.

2) The head is right in the middle of the 'Mech's front silhouette, like the JagerMech and Cataphract:
If a shooter tries to aim for the head and misses, he still hits the CT.
If a shooter aims for the 'Mech's CT from long range, there is a chance he can score a lucky headshot.

Examination of the 'Mech body part hit locations shows that the 'Mechs in Category 1 have big head hit areas, compared to Category 2, that have comparatively tiny head areas.
The only exception to the rule (high head = large, middle head = small) is the Catapult, that has a middle-located head but with a large hit area, causing it to get headshot more frequently than other 'Mechs.

However, I'm certain PGI did not do this deliberately. It's an issue that either they're not aware of yet, or haven't had the time to tweak.

I'll go dig up the image of all the color-coded 'Mech chassis hit areas and post it here, unless someone can get to it first..

[Yanoshiku]

From what I remember Catapults have big head for purpose.
It is supposed to be second line mech, supporting mech not first line, brawling mech. Carring LRMs not SRMs
Phract is the gunboat not Catapult.

[FiveDigits]

Lefty Lucy, on 02 May 2013 - 10:47 PM, said:

Which catapult variant is very strong in the current meta? The number of catapults on competitive teams that are trying their hardest is pretty close to zero.

With the current state of missiles of all kinds it's just the K2 - either as a fast PPC carrier or as an AC40.
But looking at the game from CB all through OB until mid march at least some variants of the Catapult have always been very strong, often even dominant. I am thinking of Gausscat and Splatcat (SRMs) specifically.

[Lefty Lucy]

FiveDigits, on 02 May 2013 - 11:06 PM, said:

With the current state of missiles of all kinds it's just the K2 - either as a fast PPC carrier or as an AC40.
But looking at the game from CB all through OB until mid march at least some variants of the Catapult have always been very strong, often even dominant. I am thinking of Gausscat and Splatcat (SRMs) specifically.

K2 is not as good as Jagers for AC20 duty and is not as good as 3D for PPCs because it lacks jump jets. Yes, in the past catapult variants have been very strong, but the game is in its current state, not in the past.

[blinkin]

Lefty Lucy, on 02 May 2013 - 10:47 PM, said:

Which catapult variant is very strong in the current meta? The number of catapults on competitive teams that are trying their hardest is pretty close to zero.

primarily a missile boat when everyone believes missiles are too weak to be useful. that isn't the fault of the mech it is a result of everyone being convinced missiles are useless (regardless of whether it is true or not). mechs which emphasize missiles are most likely being abandoned across the board.

like i have said before, even after the missile patch my catapult seemed to be the same brutal beast it always has been.

[El Bandito]

Lefty Lucy, on 02 May 2013 - 10:47 PM, said:

Which catapult variant is very strong in the current meta? The number of catapults on competitive teams that are trying their hardest is pretty close to zero.

Most players are pugs. Never forget that. That said, current meta is not ideal for Catapult, unless you run Gauss Kitties or Boom cats.

On topic, my most played mech is A1, and I have no problem with my cockpit.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 May 2013 - 11:43 PM.

[Infosus]

Isn't the A1 with all the SSRMs or SRMs?
Those things punch really REALLY hard, getting shot by one throws people off (maybe just me?) so i guess that's why there isn't that many head shots on them, another reason is you take the other mech down real quick.

Anything other than those builds, ones without the holy cr@p boom weapons will get hit often in the head.