122 replies to this topic

[DocBach]

Vassago Rain, on 06 May 2013 - 02:06 AM, said:

So to cancel ECM, you need one of the following.

1) PPC.
2) ER PPC.
3) ECM of your own set to counter.
4) BAP.
5) UAV.
6) common sense and eyes.
7) sensor range upgrade.

Yeah, okay. And it's gonna be mounted in fixed locations.

So why did they add it if it's not gonna do anything?

I'm wondering more if it was in such a great spot balance wise, why does every sequential patch we see get a new item to turn it off?

Instead of giving every weapon an anti-ECM effect, maybe they should just like, I don't know, tone back the effectiveness of the ECM so this game isn't about what weapons can turn it off?

[Vassago Rain]

DocBach, on 06 May 2013 - 07:16 AM, said:

I'm wondering more if it was in such a great spot balance wise, why does every sequential patch we see get a new item to turn it off?

Instead of giving every weapon an anti-ECM effect, maybe they should just like, I don't know, tone back the effectiveness of the ECM so this game isn't about what weapons can turn it off?

The way they're proposing it, everybody takes a BAP, which does a lot of things for you, and your team as a whole, while the ECM remains the shield it's always been, with 5958582582 counters that all players now carry.

Unfortunately, the shield is what kept streakcats and other such nonsense out of the game, and they WILL come back. Maybe they'll all die to poptarters. Seems likely, actually, but poptarters, as we know, are mostly in the upper elo brackets, so the lowers ones will have their own meta of homing missiles.

It's so crude and unsatisfying.

[DocBach]

i'd rather see

Beagle as a toggled active radar which lights you up as a target when you use it

ECM blocks Beagles radar - ECM on a mech with Beagle blocks Beagle from calling itself out

ECM can slow radar locks and block target information in a third mode, beagle stops that mode.

So they interact with and against each other and neither are a complete block out to anything.

The hardcounter system just creates these arms races.

[General Taskeen]

Unfortunately any (decent) record sheet Mech can't survive with the current (and half-assed) big-fish effect that PGI has gone through with. And I'm talking about any "balanced" design (with a DHS upgrade) that does not contain any counter whatsoever and is merely dependent on rolling the dice if your team has a counter or if you drop with someone who does.

And, of course, PGI or someone else will just say so, "you can Mechlab," which just crushes PGI's intent on being able to buy a Mech in its default config to begin with.

And it all goes back to the ECM 'shut off' weapons ability that should have never been programmed for it. Every subsequent change has been an attempt to counter that instead of just friggin' getting rid of that feature. Whoever suggested this feature at PGI wants to keep it as their personal pet project experiment. Perhaps that developer or developers were afraid no one would want to use an ECM if it didn't have that, which is pretty awful considering there are multitude of different things they could have done to provide bonuses for actual information warfare instead of directly affecting weapon systems.

What we have now, and as others have said, constantly creates a min/max race centered around equipment.

Edited by General Taskeen, 06 May 2013 - 09:50 AM.

[Deathlike]

DocBach, on 06 May 2013 - 09:30 AM, said:

The hardcounter system just creates these arms races.

As PGI has said... "working as intended".

[DocBach]

i wonder if all these unbalances are like completely intentional, like they know the crowd will go with whatever is the best at the current meta game and buy stuff like their hero highlander and stalker which are perfectly fitted for the current meta? Wonder if when all the ECM counters and consumables like the UAV go live, will we see an LRM hero mech?

[General Taskeen]

DocBach, on 06 May 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

i wonder if all these unbalances are like completely intentional, like they know the crowd will go with whatever is the best at the current meta game and buy stuff like their hero highlander and stalker which are perfectly fitted for the current meta? Wonder if when all the ECM counters and consumables like the UAV go live, will we see an LRM hero mech?

I think it is more or less a lack of critical oversight and major elbow rubbing at PGI HQ.

[Thorqemada]

Nik Reaper, on 02 May 2013 - 09:21 PM, said:

So yeah, all the ECM basing is good and well, but did all of you forget about ssrm-pults now with BAP for faster locking times , killing light in 2-3 salvos and mediums with 4-5 , even behind them....

If they said they were also going to do something to improve AMS vs ssrm or decrease the guiding feature of ssrm then sure, to hell with ecm , but there never was a better or more unfair light killer ( super accurate sniper aside ) than a ssrm-pult.

And no I didn't vote coz I will full well expect to see a lot of qq if nothing is done about ssrm when the BAP improvements come.

The Trick for fast locking SSRM is not BAP - its Artemis!
Bcs of the Design how "lock on" in MWO works (shared programm code for LRM and SSRM) SSRM do benefit from it - contrary to the description.
Artemis gives 50% faster lock afaik, BAP only 25% or so - and if you use only SSRM Artemis does weight zero tons.

Edited by Thorqemada, 06 May 2013 - 11:11 AM.

[MisterFiveSeven]

Jabilo, on 06 May 2013 - 06:37 AM, said:

Its all too simple rock paper scissors crap.

The whole way sensors, BAP and ECM work and synergise needs a complete overhaul - with active and passive sensors thrown in to the mix.

Ok you have standard sensors.

These can be improved with BAP, TAG, NARC, modules etc.

You can shield yourself and team mates (where appropriate) with ECM and by going passive.

These should all interact in a deep but common sense way, with detection ranges and lock on times getting higher and lower as the different systems play off each other.

Example, BAP allows you to detect and target opponents at longer ranges and helps achieve missile locks quicker. NO HARD COUNTERS.

However YOUR signal is also stronger, allowing you to be detected at longer ranges and for missiles to lock you more easily.

BAP can be toggled on and off as desired when installed.

ECM reduces the range that people can detect you and the time it takes them to lock missiles against you. BAP counters these to a certain extent but NO HARD COUNTERS (just adjustments to lock time and detection range).

BAP and ECM can both be used, giving you the benefit of BAP without all the draw backs, but obviously you pay the price in tonnage and critical slots. Of course you would not be as radar dark as if you ran ECM alone.

In addition passive sensors allow you to go dark, adjusting the ranges people can detect you and the time it takes them to achieve lock. This can be combined with ECM and countered with BAP.

Detection ranges and lock on times will adjust dynamically depending upon who has BAP and improved sensors, who has ECM, who has gone passive etc etc.

ECM, BAP and active sensors can all be toggled at any time in game (when installed) to allow you to fit your profile to the current battlefield condition.

The current and proposed system is lazy sticking plaster stuff. We are still in BETA so chuck it out the window and try something new.

Sweet jesus; active and passive sensors? THAT'S TOO MUCH DEPTH!

On a more serious note, I'm a little shocked that they've shied away from making EW and sensors a bigger deal (active, passive, ecm, bap, lock on times, target information, intel sharing, etc.), but still throw newbies straight into TT's mech customization rules (not that there's anything wrong with them, they just aren't intuitive). ******** paper>scissors on one hand and a 40 page manual on the other.

In fact, the more I think about this the more I think it'd be perfect!

But pretty soon BAP will be too good, and we'll need ecm to counter our ecm (that's not ecm) that's countering ecm :/

[Armando]

Sounds like the devs have finally nerfed ECM to the ground. Welcome the return of Steak SRM Catapults.

[DocBach]

Armando, on 06 May 2013 - 07:46 PM, said:

Sounds like the devs have finally nerfed ECM to the ground. Welcome the return of Steak SRM Catapults.

It's disappointing that there is so much that can be done with the electronic warfare systems in this game by means of interaction between the different information warfare components, but instead we get a linear system of hard counter after hard counter.

[Mynder]

Armando, on 06 May 2013 - 07:46 PM, said:

Sounds like the devs have finally nerfed ECM to the ground. Welcome the return of Steak SRM Catapults.

Steak catapults sound tasty.

[Asmudius Heng]

MisterFiveSeven, on 06 May 2013 - 04:48 PM, said:

But pretty soon BAP will be too good, and we'll need ecm to counter our ecm (that's not ecm) that's countering ecm :/

Like the man who ate the spider to get the fly he swallowed.

Or for those familiar with the Australian ecosystem, like introducing a foreign species to fight some bug, then having that species get out of control so you introduce ANOTHER foreign species to counter that ... which then eats your native animals as well.

An ongoing cycle of poorly thought out hard counters rather than an elegantly designed sensor/info warfare ecosystem.

Balance is an ecosystem where one small change causes ripples to many other things. PGI does not finesse anything. The only acceptable way for them to save face is a massive reworking on many core mechanics and balance issues and starting again now that they have their 'core content' in so they feel they can balance it properly.

Their working as in tended remarks however show this will never happen.

[Hammerfinn]

As pointed out above, hard-counter balance CAN be achieved. It's a different philosophy from subtly caressing things into equality--but I LIKE the hard-counter cycle. In a constantly updated game, it can eventually lead to an interesting and complex system of sacrifice and reward. Do I have faith that PGI will get it right eventually? No, but I have hope. The type of subtle balancing tweaks and soft counters you're suggesting can lead to brilliant depth, but it can also lead to homogeneity, and the diversity of viable options is one thing I like about this game.

[Eleshod]

We're gonna see a lot less lights... The role of scouting is non-existent as most teams just blob-rush to the center and shoot each other till there is a lack of red on their huds... I love scouting and TRUST me I tried. I called out mechs, tagged things, attempted to agitate high-risk enemies and distract them from the fight...... IT DOES NOT WORK most of the maps are too small to set up proper scouting positions, mechs are too fast and the mindless blob is too stupid to form any sort of tactic except once in a blue moon.

[DocBach]

Hammerfinn, on 06 May 2013 - 11:18 PM, said:

but it can also lead to homogeneity, and the diversity of viable options is one thing I like about this game.

speaking of homogeneity, notice how PPCs became the weapon of choice once it burned through ECM? Almost all of the latest complaints about sterility in the game can be directly correlated to changes made to countering ECM, rather than just adjusting ECM and by extension LRMs.

LRMs overpowered = ECM, ECM overpowered = PPCs, TAG LRMs nerfed = PPCs overpowered, ECM not relevant as nobody takes ECM anyways since nobody takes LRMs seriously, everybody playing with PPCs as main weapon

these hardcounter bandaids instead of curing the disease causes a bunch more symptoms that are bad for gameplay.

Edited by DocBach, 07 May 2013 - 10:29 AM.

[Hammerfinn]

For now, perhaps, but I believe they are (trying) to work towards a system that, while the balancing is in progress, will have some issues, but will be more dynamic once everything is worked into its proper place.

[RedrumnCoke]

I'm just happy that my Cicada x-5 will finally be able to shoot streaks back at Raven 3ls and see how they like it This change can't come soon enough. They've enjoyed streak immunity for far too long. I suspect we will see a lot of the bad raven players quit the mech once they can no longer win by just running in a circle around you and mashing the streak fire button. If both light mechs have streaks (and can fire them), then the victor will be the one who can get more damage done with lasers, and most raven 3ls are bad at aiming as they've relied on the crutch of auto aim. The good 3l players will rise to the occasion. They will have to work harder to get kills, but they will finally earn respect; so a win win in my book.

Edited by RedrumnCoke, 08 May 2013 - 12:17 PM.

[Arcturious]

Quick note to those asking why BAP is another counter to ECM.

The simple answer is about play experience of LRM boats. Currently, TAG won't work under ECM. ECM also negates your ability to lock. Therefore, ECM is the equivalent of stun locking an LRM boat. There is really nothin they can do to dislodge a faster, smaller mech that only has to stand within 180m to completely nullify them.

While this is good from a mechanics perspective, it fails the fun test. This change is primarily designed around giving LRM boats the ability to still participate in a fight, with a small concession of weight and slots for BAP. I really agree with this solution, even though I personally had no issues with how ECM worked it was not good for the majority / healthy balance. This is also the answer to the other questions I've seen asked.

Some people are wondering if BAP is now going to be necessary. The simple answer is no, another reason why this solution is a nice way of handling ECM. If you are like myself, ECM was never a problem anyway. There is no need to take a BAP, my game experience won't change because of this addition. If you are finding ECM to be a problem though, you are now free to take BAP as a work around. The truth is the vast majority of mechs don't need BAP. Laser boats, ballistics etc were never effected by ECM in the first place. This really is just something missile users and those who just want to avoid ECM will run with. Making it a really optional choice which is the best type of balance.

However, its the other flow on effects that are the main worry. I would love to see some more specific information released but we just have to wait two weeks then we can test. Things like how many ECM can a single BAP counter? How does mounting both ECM and BAP in a single mech work?

So I'm looking forward to the change. My CPLT-C4 is going to get a new lease on life.

[DrBunji]

Doesnt this just means that streak cats are going to be the best build again, making lights unable to compete in close range combat?

Edit: Oh i see this point has allready been made a hundred times. A shame too, i had finally gotten over my grief over the ******** of/surround the 3pv thing, start patching, better check out the forums, stop patching instantly.

Edited by DrBunji, 09 May 2013 - 09:26 AM.