61 replies to this topic

[Daneel Hazen]

An idea would be, like the novels, to have the IS mechs outnumber the clanners.. For example, an IS vs Clan match which would normally be 12 vs 12 (when this happens) becomes 12 vs 10. Please present your ideas. Please, if you are IS don't use Cry Engine 4 to QQ about the board games etc you have had to deal with... it's a brave new online world.

[xxREVxx]

If clan tech reflects the actual ranges/damage etc according to tt...9 vs 12 or 8 vs 12 maybe

[Daneel Hazen]

Yeah, but it needs to stick to star vs lance... like 10 vs 12 or 16 possibly.

[Hawkwings]

What a new and original idea.

Anyways if the balance was really properly represented it would be more like 12v5. That would represent canon better and then balancing could be geared towards those kinds of matches, so clantech is as OP as it is intended to be.

[Parduke]

I suggest making it so that if they lose a battle for any reason they lose thier mech and have to buy a new one. Winning side gets "clan tech credits" to purchase caln tech

[FupDup]

There are two problems with asymmetrical team sizes:

1. You split up friends.
-If two or more people who normally get on Teamspeak/whatever every weekend to play MWO together just so happen to have different faction tastes, they suddenly won't be able to play together if they want to experience their favorite faction.


2. The magic ratio will be a PITA to find.
-The suggestion made every other day by every man and his dog about 5v8, 10v12, or whatever else are all made under the assumption of how Clan tech worked in Tabletop. Something we have to remember is that MWO isn't TT. A Clan mech here might be stronger than TT or it might be weaker; we don't have any data with which to assume that they'll have the same overall effectiveness they had in a board game as they would in a first-person shooter. There are so many different factors here to consider like double armor, convergence, wacky heat system, real-time combat, no heat-scale penalties, no BattleValue or spending limits, and min-maxing.



And no, I'm not suggesting for Clanners to fight alongside IS at a 1:1 ratio. I'm just saying that trying to balance the Clanners is an inherently redundant task. They were designed deliberately to stimulate rulebook and miniature sales via hardcore power creep and gamebreakingness. I'm not sure if there even is a solution that stays true to the lore, because the lore made them as described in the previous sentence.

Edited by FupDup, 02 May 2013 - 07:23 PM.

[CrashieJ]

How to make Clans Viable in MWO

step 1: put all items in game (ALL OF IT)

step 2: fix game

step 3: add all clan items (ALL OF IT)

step 4: fix clans

step 5: have happy customers

you see, the best way to make this game work is to put all the items in the game, then balance them, including items beyond 3060 and clan items.

not the things they are doing now

[TheSteelRhino]

What you need is a combination of things.

1). Clanners fight in groups of 5 mech "stars". Therefore a clan "binary" of 10i s equivalent to an innersphere company of 12.
2). Ominmechs are not supposed to be as customizable as everyone thinks.
a). Advantage of omnimechs. "Podded" weapons that are easily interchangeable. Mech changes with the mission. Therefore you don't have the hardpoint limitation that IS mechs do. The hardpoints are mostly (not all) but mostly "generic".
. You cannot change, Internal structure type, Armour type, Heat sink type on omnis. Ever. Honestly I think you should be stuck with the stock engine as well. That would definitely be a drawback to the design.
c). Price..Clan tech and omni mechs stupidly expensive (look it up on sarna).
d). Bring back economy. Yes I said it. If you have to repair your 25 or 30 million dollar assault omni all the time ,maybe that medium omni (which hits like an Inner sphere heavy or assault, but faster) starts looking more attractive.

Advanced Inner sphere tech.
As game goes on inner sphere catches up to "star league" level tech, and then in some ways their own tech begins to exceed clan in some ways. But ..this takes time. Perhaps, for high loyalty point players rewards are advanced tech that is still experimental.

[Zerberus]

There are already like a thousand threads about "How to nerf the clans because we expect them to be megahyper OP, even though we have nothing but TT rules which barely apply here in MWO to base it on".

Do we really need to start a new one every other day?

Seriously, we`be been nerfing this and nerfing that ever since CB ended, all on unfinished weapons (no hsr, for example), with the inevitable result that it would become a Circle nerf.

And what happens? Now we have to nerf weapons we previously buffed now that they`re working properly, and everbody starts building the next roof without haviong a foundation much less a house to put it on....

How about people actually playing instead of callijng for nerfs of things that many won`t ever see because they`ll have rageqqed long before then becasue nobody took their incessant whinig seriously?

Edited by Zerberus, 06 May 2013 - 08:26 AM.

[SmokinDave73]

I would be more then happy to do 5 Clan mechs(star) v 12 IS mechs(3 Lance's). This way clan tech does not need to be nerfed into the ground and it would aslo be a fun challange. Thats just my humble opinion.

[Damian Frost]

SmokinDave73, on 06 May 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:

I would be more then happy to do 5 Clan mechs(star) v 12 IS mechs(3 Lance's). This way clan tech does not need to be nerfed into the ground and it would aslo be a fun challange. Thats just my humble opinion.

especially if they integrate the omni-tech within the game which would balance the star vs lance play

[Nehkrosis]

"OmniMechs are not fully modular. An OmniMech's structural components: its engine, internal structure, armor and any equipment installed on the base chassis of OmniMech are "hard-wired" and cannot be modified outside of a total redesign of the 'Mech."

Given that , for the most part, PGI havent deviated TOO much from anything on Sarna, this will be the way we see the clans.

Sure, NOMNOMomnimechs are going to blast IS mechs to pieces in some situations, totally kitted out IS mechs are still going to be able to move quickly, have high armour values, and things like AMS, ECM, MASC (eventually) etc..

If i, For example, Buy (or however we get our hands on them) a Timberwolf, it WILL have a 375 XL engine, and i cant change that. Thusly, I can not make my Timberwolf move slower for more DAKKA/BOOM, and i cant make it more Heat efficient by putting on more heatsinks. I also could not suddenly (if PGI decided to give us DAY 2 of LRM hell) install an AMS.

^^^ This, alongside having 2 less mechs on our clan side, will make for a fairly balanced game i think.

Anyone see a problem with how this would play out if implemented?

Edited by Nehkrosis, 07 May 2013 - 06:55 AM.

[FupDup]

Nehkrosis, on 07 May 2013 - 06:54 AM, said:

Sure, NOMNOMomnimechs are going to blast IS mechs to pieces in some situations, totally kitted out IS mechs are still going to be able to move quickly, have high armour values, and things like AMS, ECM, MASC (eventually) etc..

If i, For example, Buy (or however we get our hands on them) a Timberwolf, it WILL have a 375 XL engine, and i cant change that. Thusly, I can not make my Timberwolf move slower for more DAKKA/BOOM, and i cant make it more Heat efficient by putting on more heatsinks. I also could not suddenly (if PGI decided to give us DAY 2 of LRM hell) install an AMS.

About that...

Page 53, TechManual.


Page 189, Strategic Operations.


TL;DR: Heatsinks are just as modular as weapons and equipment on Omnis, and non-modular components have to be modified using customizing procedures.

Edited by FupDup, 07 May 2013 - 07:39 AM.

[Nehkrosis]

But, if they DO go with whats on Sarna, we have fairly balanced system, Quineg?

[IceSerpent]

Nehkrosis, on 07 May 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

But, if they DO go with whats on Sarna, we have fairly balanced system, Quineg?

Not sure - PGI has a very "creative" implementation of heatscale, so clantech might not work without an ability to upgrade/downgrade engine rating and change number of heatsinks. Just like stock IS configs went from being slightly worse than custom (due to being more generalized) in TT all the way to being virtually useless in MWO. For example, I just don't see Warhawk Prime being viable in MWO without some extensive modifications.

[Dan Nashe]

Personally I suspect they will cometely ignore canon (clantech weapons will have damage rexuced by 33 percent and/ or heat increased by the same amount, acs will be worse for no reason to make up for being lighter, engines will be inner sphere so a removed torso kills the mech, ff and endo steel wil take twice as many slots).

Or, they'll try to follow it all mechs will use clantech. Either clan xl, endo and ff will be unavailable or it will be available on Is mechs or no one will play IS mechs again. Armorand structure will need to be increased by 50 percent as mediums will have 70 point alphas and stalkers will have 90 point alphas.

There's no way they would make clan mechs less modular than IS mechs. While it's true in canon you can't change engines in omnis, you also can't change engines or IS in inner sphere mechs either... or weapons without a multi month overhaul.

Most likely though, it will be something I'm not expecting.

I don't see 5 v 12 happening . . . I just don't.
Too hard to balance.

[VanillaG]

IceSerpent, on 07 May 2013 - 08:05 AM, said:

Not sure - PGI has a very "creative" implementation of heatscale, so clantech might not work without an ability to upgrade/downgrade engine rating and change number of heatsinks. Just like stock IS configs went from being slightly worse than custom (due to being more generalized) in TT all the way to being virtually useless in MWO. For example, I just don't see Warhawk Prime being viable in MWO without some extensive modifications.

There is another thread here on the forums where some did an analysis and almost all of the Clan mechs equipped over 90% of allowable armor so they are not under armored like most IS stock mechs. For IS mechs to remain viable they have to lock down the base omnimech because if you are able to change engine ratings there is no reason to ever buy an IS mech. Basically it would like this:

• IS Mech - you change base to free up crit space and weight but are limited by hard points.
  
• OmniMech - you have fixed crit space and weight but have no hardpoint limitations.

Now the Ominmech is more rugged because it can survive the loss of a side torso with an XL engine, but you are more restricted on what you can mount because you do not have the dynamic armor and structure sections. With the Omni you might have the necessary weight and total crit space for a build but because of the layout of the crit space you would not be able to make some builds that you could on an IS mech.

[FupDup]

Nehkrosis, on 07 May 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

But, if they DO go with whats on Sarna, we have fairly balanced system, Quineg?

Well, the problem with following Sarna for Omnis is that the "disadvantages" paragraph says very explicitly that Omnis can in fact modify their internal stuff IF they are rebuilt from the ground up and effectively turned into a standard Battlemech (lose Omni powers). In MWO that would probably translate into paying a one-time fee to turn into a BM (sort of like changing armor types, heat sink types, etc.).

On the idea of limiting Omnis to never ever touching those internals, it might be a very possible balancing mechanism but I'm just saying that it's not canon. That doesn't mean they can't or shouldn't do it, because sometimes canon has to be defied for the greater good in order to make Mechwarrior games work (i.e. convergence).



The real issue is that it breaks the spirit of Omnis over one's knee. Omnis were known for being able to swap out weapons and some other equipment really really fast and really really cheap, whereas Battlemechs needed a long @$$ time for that and also a lot of spacebucks. In MWO, the low-cost modification advantage is gone because our Battlemechs can be refitted however we wish for free and instantly. Omnis are supposed to be able to swap out stuff to suit a specific mission whereas normal BM's are usually bought stock because it's cheaper and faster to do that than to refit them. That's why stock BM's usually carry weapons for every range--because it usually isn't worth the hassle of refitting them constantly so just make them good for any purpose. That's why Omnis were useful--they could afford to specialize to the mission.

Without any customization, the advantage Clan Omnis would retain is their weapons and to a lesser extent their superior FF/Endo/XL...which is obviously an extremely huge advantage if not the biggest advantage, but what happens to Inner Sphere Omnimechs if those ever get implemented? Yeah, I realize I'm kind of distracting from the main point with this, but there would really be no point in any IS Omni ever if they can't touch anything but gunz.

Edited by FupDup, 07 May 2013 - 09:48 AM.

[Klaus]

Not to be cynical or anything but they can't even balance the 24 IS weapons in the game properly after all this time.

[IceSerpent]

VanillaG, on 07 May 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

There is another thread here on the forums where some did an analysis and almost all of the Clan mechs equipped over 90% of allowable armor so they are not under armored like most IS stock mechs. For IS mechs to remain viable they have to lock down the base omnimech because if you are able to change engine ratings there is no reason to ever buy an IS mech. Basically it would like this:

• IS Mech - you change base to free up crit space and weight but are limited by hard points.
  
• OmniMech - you have fixed crit space and weight but have no hardpoint limitations.

Now the Ominmech is more rugged because it can survive the loss of a side torso with an XL engine, but you are more restricted on what you can mount because you do not have the dynamic armor and structure sections. With the Omni you might have the necessary weight and total crit space for a build but because of the layout of the crit space you would not be able to make some builds that you could on an IS mech.

I take it that all this stuff about armor actually has something to do with my stated concerns about heat, and I am merely missing the connection?