61 replies to this topic

[Taemien]

Klaus, on 07 May 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

Not to be cynical or anything but they can't even balance the 24 IS weapons in the game properly after all this time.

Thats being extremely cynical when only 2 of those weapon systems aren't performing (mguns and flamers). 4 are underperfoming (LRMs, and are under revision). And the other 18 are fine. In comparison, the MWLL mod spent its entire lifespan balancing weapons from patch to patch. Its just the nature of the game.


If Clans have a disadvantage in numbers, the same thing will happen to them here that happens to them in every planetary league I played in against them. They will get stomped and the idea will have to be revised. The difference in MWO is it won't be as simple as rewording the rules of drops, they'll have to go back in, recode and repatch the whole thing.

I'm all about stomping clanners. But I want to do so because its fair. Not because I outnumber them outright. Factoring in that half of you DC due to inefficient rigs (Newer unstable AMD vs the older more stable stuff). That means clans could easily start with 8 vs 12 or worse in many games.

[IceSerpent]

Taemien, on 07 May 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

Thats being extremely cynical when only 2 of those weapon systems aren't performing (mguns and flamers). 4 are underperfoming (LRMs, and are under revision). And the other 18 are fine.

Mind if I ask what the heck you've been smoking and where I can get some of that stuff?

[VanillaG]

IceSerpent, on 07 May 2013 - 10:31 AM, said:

I take it that all this stuff about armor actually has something to do with my stated concerns about heat, and I am merely missing the connection?

TBH, I didn't carry the heat comment to the rest of the argument. The armor stuff was more directed at the comment that stock IS configs are worse than stock Omnimech configs. Stock Omnimechs come with ES, DHS, FF, XL engine, and near max armor. When you take into account is that each of the upgrades are not as "expensive" in terms as critical space so the decisions that you would make for IS mechs might not apply to Omnimechs.

As I stated in my post, if you allow Omnimechs to have greater customization options (basically they have full customization without hardpoint restrictions) than IS mechs then there would never be a reason to purchase IS mechs. By limiting different customization aspects for each type it allows the different chassis to live side by side.

[Taemien]

IceSerpent, on 07 May 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

Mind if I ask what the heck you've been smoking and where I can get some of that stuff?

I'm not a noob.

The other weapons are only OP against players who cannot adapt, and UP for those that don't know how to use them. Sorry I have no issues with those weapons either being used by or against me. I can even get results out of LRMs, though diminished in comparison.

If you have issues with any of them, either being used against you or issues using them, then simply get better.

[Rooster Cogburn]

well the fact is at no point in this game has it had any kind of balance it always has one weapon or peice of equipment that is off the charts op if clan tech is available to players kiss this game good bye you can not balance it with is tech if you do players rage if you dont players rage leave the clans out if you want to avoid them being op or put them in and watch the game die

[Daneel Hazen]

If it's tied to the commerce system you could lose (honor) points for shooting people in the back, at least until the invasion enters a later phase.

[IceSerpent]

VanillaG, on 07 May 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

As I stated in my post, if you allow Omnimechs to have greater customization options (basically they have full customization without hardpoint restrictions) than IS mechs then there would never be a reason to purchase IS mechs. By limiting different customization aspects for each type it allows the different chassis to live side by side.

What makes you think that omnimechs "basically they have full customization without hardpoint restrictions"? They are not like that in TT and I don't think this idea is even on the table (i.e. it would obviously make omnimechs OP and cause everybody to tun same exact cookie-cutter build).

Taemien, on 07 May 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:

I'm not a noob.

Maybe, but you definitely have no idea what you are talking about.

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The other weapons are only OP against players who cannot adapt, and UP for those that don't know how to use them. Sorry I have no issues with those weapons either being used by or against me. I can even get results out of LRMs, though diminished in comparison.

Weapon balance has virtually nothing to do with player skill - if you can hit a broad side of a barn with an AC20, you can do it with a PPC too. The only thing that matters is math, that's what determines whether a given weapon is good or bad.
Oh, and if you "have no issues with those weapons", please boat small pulse lasers and post a video of your best match with that config.

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If you have issues with any of them, either being used against you or issues using them, then simply get better.

I am already better than you, simply by virtue of being smarter.

[Pinselborste]

balance clan and IS tech so both have up and downsides, have equal teams and it will be fine, otherwhise the game will die.

[Skadi]

Theres been mention of mix tech matches where its a 12v12 with is and clan on both teams using clan gear... theres also been talk of the traditional 8v12 in favor of the IS in numbers

[Ramien]

I'm on the fence about how much Clan tech is really going to change the game when introduced. On the one hand, we've already got 6PPC stalkers wreaking havoc with two alphas before shutting down, and Clan 'Mechs don't get any extra amounts of armor. On the other, we don't need need 7ERPPC Clan Mechs doing the same thing, but more so.

[VanillaG]

IceSerpent, on 07 May 2013 - 04:17 PM, said:

What makes you think that omnimechs "basically they have full customization without hardpoint restrictions"? They are not like that in TT and I don't think this idea is even on the table (i.e. it would obviously make omnimechs OP and cause everybody to tun same exact cookie-cutter build).

IceSerpent, on 07 May 2013 - 08:05 AM, said:

Not sure - PGI has a very "creative" implementation of heatscale, so clantech might not work without an ability to upgrade/downgrade engine rating and change number of heatsinks. Just like stock IS configs went from being slightly worse than custom (due to being more generalized) in TT all the way to being virtually useless in MWO. For example, I just don't see Warhawk Prime being viable in MWO without some extensive modifications.

Ok, maybe I am missing something but in your original post you mention that the omnimechs might not be able to work without being able to swap engines. To be clear, I think that the only thing that you should be able to do omnis is place weapons, heatsinks, and equipment based on the stock available crit space and weight available. Being able to swap engines is basically full customization to me because that is where you can have the most effect is freeing up weight. Freeing up additional weight with clan weapons being smaller and lighter is just going to make the imbalance even worse.

[Caleb Brightmore]

Here is my question. If IS mechs are weaker that Clan mechs and IS mechs are one shotted all the time by other IS mechs due to PPC boating and Guasscats etc.
How are we supposed to be able to fight them technically the way you are talking about how great they are I can only survive a half of one shot from them or I am crit or dead.

How is this going to be fun again?

Not complaining at all will pilot lights and fly just wondering what others think about this.

Please do not flame and tell me to be a better pilot etc it's a simple question when oneshots exist every match as it is and clans do not at all.

Edited by Caleb Brightmore, 07 May 2013 - 07:20 PM.

[Nehkrosis]

It wont happen, as it would be Dis-honourable (hur hur, like that will matter)

Could they not simply just have multiple Alternate Variants for each OmniMech?
With each Variant simply allowing the Clan Player the smallest extra customization for the mech in question.

For Example; The Alternate Config B for the Timberwolf has Artemis, Whereas the C has AMS.
The S has more JumpJets.


Obviously, this is not the perfect way to implement the clan mechs, but allowing us only the Omnipoints can, i believe, make for a dangerous build.

Removing all the Weapons ( 2xMachine Guns, 2x ER large las, 2x ER med las, 2x CLRMs 20) from the Primary variant of the TimberWolf gives you around 22.50 tons to mess with. And you still have a fast, highly armoured Mech.

How where they implemented in older titles?

[FupDup]

Nehkrosis, on 07 May 2013 - 07:20 PM, said:

How where they implemented in older titles?

In MW3, Omnis and Battlemechs were identical in all but name. In MW4, Omnis acted like BM's but with a few "Omni" hardpoints that could fit any weapon type of the right size (still have a lot of single-type slots like energy, missiles, and ballistics; regular BM's got no Omni slots). I dunno about MW2 or MW1.

Looking to past MW games for this probably won't get us very far.

[IceSerpent]

VanillaG, on 07 May 2013 - 07:14 PM, said:

Ok, maybe I am missing something but in your original post you mention that the omnimechs might not be able to work without being able to swap engines. To be clear, I think that the only thing that you should be able to do omnis is place weapons, heatsinks, and equipment based on the stock available crit space and weight available. Being able to swap engines is basically full customization to me because that is where you can have the most effect is freeing up weight. Freeing up additional weight with clan weapons being smaller and lighter is just going to make the imbalance even worse.

That's exactly what I am concerned about - you should not be able to swap an engine, but given that Clan weapons generate much more heat than IS counterparts and that PGI's implementation of heatscale is extremely weird, this straight-from-the-rules implementation of omnimechs might not be viable at all.

[FupDup]

IceSerpent, on 08 May 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

That's exactly what I am concerned about - you should not be able to swap an engine, but given that Clan weapons generate much more heat than IS counterparts and that PGI's implementation of heatscale is extremely weird, this straight-from-the-rules implementation of omnimechs might not be viable at all.

Clan weapons generate identical heat in every single case except for the UAC/10 AFAIK, which generates 1 point of heat less than its IS version. Clan ER lasers are not the equivalent of Inner Sphere standard lasers, so those don't count unless you're comparing a Clan ER laser to the IS standard laser of one class above it.

Example: A Clan ER Medium Laser is, for all intents and purposes, a 1-ton version of the standard IS Large Laser if you compare TT stats. Of course, the LL got buffed up to 9 damage and 7 heat in MWO instead of 8 for both values in TT, so the margin of the CERML's superiority would be a lot lower in MWO if we used TT stats for the CERML (identical range, 5 heat, 7 damage, 1 ton, 1 crit space).

Edited by FupDup, 08 May 2013 - 09:12 AM.

[Grey Black]

How to avoid the Clan-tech OP in this game discussion/speculation:

Avoid posting any speculation about the Clans until the Devs start releasing information.

./thread

[IceSerpent]

FupDup, on 08 May 2013 - 09:04 AM, said:

Clan weapons generate identical heat in every single case except for the UAC/10 AFAIK, which generates 1 point of heat less than its IS version. Clan ER lasers are not the equivalent of Inner Sphere standard lasers, so those don't count unless you're comparing a Clan ER laser to the IS standard laser of one class above it.

No, because Clans don't have a non-ER equivalent - they only have CERPPC, CERLL, CERML, etc. So, if you want to mount a PPC on a Clan mech, your only choice is a 15 dmg / 15 heat version.

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Example: A Clan ER Medium Laser is, for all intents and purposes, a 1-ton version of the standard IS Large Laser if you compare TT stats. Of course, the LL got buffed up to 9 damage and 7 heat in MWO instead of 8 for both values in TT, so the margin of the CERML's superiority would be a lot lower in MWO if we used TT stats for the CERML (identical range, 5 heat, 7 damage, 1 ton, 1 crit space).

Clan ER medium laser: 7 damage, 5 heat, 1 ton, 1 crit, range up to 12 hexes.
IS large laser: 8 damage, 8 heat, 5 ton, 2 crit, range up to 15 hexes.

Now which of those stats are identical? Right, not a single one.

[FupDup]

IceSerpent, on 08 May 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

No, because Clans don't have a non-ER equivalent - they only have CERPPC, CERLL, CERML, etc. So, if you want to mount a PPC on a Clan mech, your only choice is a 15 dmg / 15 heat version.

And the Inner Sphere ERPPC does 10 damage / 15 heat. Again, Clan weapons generate identical heat in almost all cases. If you want to talk about Clan ER weapons, compare them to Inner Sphere ER weapons or the standard laser of one class higher (CERLL has no equivalent because large is the highest class of laser).

IceSerpent, on 08 May 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

Clan ER medium laser: 7 damage, 5 heat, 1 ton, 1 crit, range up to 12 hexes.
IS large laser: 8 damage, 8 heat, 5 ton, 2 crit, range up to 15 hexes.

Now which of those stats are identical? Right, not a single one.

IS Large Laser:
Short range: 1-5
Medium range: 6-10
Long range: 11-15

Clan ER Medium Laser:
Short range: 1-5
Medium range: 6-10
Long range: 11-15

Now which of those range stats are identical? Right, every single one.

You were probably looking at the Inner Sphere ERML for the range of only 12 hexes. Even if the CERML didn't go to 15 hexes, it would still be all-around a better choice due to 4 tons of weight saved and much less heat in exchange for a wee bit less damage (MWO LL does 9 damage and 7 heat, still not a very large difference).

Edited by FupDup, 08 May 2013 - 11:38 AM.

[IceSerpent]

FupDup, on 08 May 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

And the Inner Sphere ERPPC does 10 damage / 15 heat. Again, Clan weapons generate identical heat in almost all cases. If you want to talk about Clan ER weapons, compare them to Inner Sphere ER weapons or the standard laser of one class higher (CERLL has no equivalent because large is the highest class of laser).

You can't compare them like this - Clans don't have an option to use a weapon that generates less heat. On IS mech if ERPPC is too hot, I can just "downgrade" it to a regular one. On a Clan mech if CERPPC is too hot, I can't use a PPC at all. Basically, IS has a bigger variety of weapons with different heat values (due to having both ER and regular weapons), which helps us to get around current balance issues. Clans don't have that kind of luxury, and if energy weapons are not viable everybody on the Clan side would switch to missile or ballistic boats, and what little variety we have now will be ancient history.

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You were probably looking at the Inner Sphere ERML for the range of only 12 hexes. Even if the CERML didn't go to 15 hexes, it would still be all-around a better choice due to 4 tons of weight saved and much less heat in exchange for a wee bit less damage (MWO LL does 9 damage and 7 heat, still not a very large difference).

Yep, you are right about the ranges. I looked at the IS version.