21 replies to this topic

[Stargoat]

So... I'm a little worried here, if BAP completely counters ECM within 150 metres (something I'm not against in principal), won't that mean a return of the dreaded 6SSRM2 Catapult A1?

I'm calling it now, running any lights will be as hard as it was pre-ECM, while the nerf does nothing to counter the effectiveness of the Raven 3L. This will push the non-3L lights back into obscurity, just as they were finding their own again - except maybe the Jenner, able to use streaks against Ravens again. But a commando, spider or flea? No chance.

Perhaps this patch will bring out the inherent imbalance in Streaks that was all but forgotten when ECM was introduced, and finally have the core mechanics of the weapon addressed. After months of pain.

Edited by Stargoat, 03 May 2013 - 05:18 AM.

[Star Captain Obvious Kerensky]

The game has changed a lot since November.

Back when the Streak-Cat ruled the brawling game, every map was a brawling map and the netcode was such that only streaks would reliably hit a target every time.

Today you can Jump over a ridge and deliver 45 points of PPC/Gauss damage to a single location on a target. That is much scarier than a streak cat.

Edited by Eldragon, 03 May 2013 - 05:28 AM.

[Fate 6]

Trust me, streaks are pretty not-great right now. I run my Splatapult (and have been running it since before ECM when nobody ran it), and even an Artemis 6-SRM6 A1 barely blows up some mechs in 4+ alphas. Streak Cats are pretty dead right now with current missile damage.

[El Bandito]

I'm just gonna say this beforehand. After the May 21st patch, many people will try out the Streak cat, do bad with the A1--namely get their heads blown off 1000 meters away--and switch back to their PPC build.

[silentD11]

Eldragon, on 03 May 2013 - 05:27 AM, said:

The game has changed a lot since November.

Back when the Streak-Cat ruled the brawling game, every map was a brawling map and the netcode was such that only streaks would reliably hit a target every time.

Today you can Jump over a ridge and deliver 45 points of PPC/Gauss damage to a single location on a target. That is much scarier than a streak cat.

Now you can create mechs with PPCs or LLs for range and streaks for close. Jager mech with 4x SSRM and 2xLLs and it can't have it's ears clipped as easily as the cat.

Streaks will be back, in full force.

[Drenzul]

Ear clipping was always a bad idea, for the same damage as taking off the ears, you could have killed the mech in 3/4 of the damage by aiming for CT.

[topgun505]

If they don't fix the splash radius for streaks at the same time they implement the BAP mod then this will indeed let the genie back out of the bottle.

It won't be quite as bad as previous thanks to the huge number of high alpha snipers that exist now who can take the ears off a cat in pretty much a single shot , plus the fact that SRMs do half the damage they used to. The existance of the AC20 Jager will also act as a natural predator as well.

Still. Running ANY light mech will be a much more iffy proposition.

Jenner 7d and 7f may still be feasible along with the traditional Raven but the smaller lights will be totally non-viable.

Edited by topgun505, 03 May 2013 - 05:57 AM.

[Stargoat]

Hopefully you're right. The Spider 5D Is probably my favourite 'mech to run at the moment, and I would be heartbroken if it becomes unfeasible again.

[Deathlike]

Stargoat, on 03 May 2013 - 06:24 AM, said:

Hopefully you're right. The Spider 5D Is probably my favourite 'mech to run at the moment, and I would be heartbroken if it becomes unfeasible again.

It won't be unfeasible... you simply have to suddenly become elite with it.

[Belorion]

silentD11, on 03 May 2013 - 05:48 AM, said:

Now you can create mechs with PPCs or LLs for range and streaks for close. Jager mech with 4x SSRM and 2xLLs and it can't have it's ears clipped as easily as the cat.

Streaks will be back, in full force.

I am already running a 2 PPC 4 SSRM Jager... why would after the change be any different?

[dario03]

This is exactly what I've been saying since they announced the bap change. If streaks didn't exist or were greatly nerfed then the change wouldn't be a big deal. But streaks do exist and make it far to easy to kill a light. Lights are already easy enough to kill if you can aim, there doesn't need to be a weapon that automatically kills them. Even if the streakcat doesn't work out well theres plenty of other builds that can have streaks thrown on them. Really getting rid of streaks or greatly nerfing them is all that would be needed to balance ecm. The 3L's ability to shoot streaks while being immune to them was one of the main reasons so many people hated ecm. If streaks didn't exist then the Jenner would be the best brawling light, while the ecm lights would have the stealth of ecm and thus be better for actual scouting and capping and harassing.

Edited by dario03, 03 May 2013 - 06:47 PM.

[El Bandito]

dario03, on 03 May 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

This is exactly what I've been saying since they announced the bap change. If streaks didn't exist or were greatly nerfed then the change wouldn't be a big deal. But streaks do exist and make it far to easy to kill a light. Lights are already easy enough to kill if you can aim, there doesn't need to be a weapon that automatically kills them. Even if the streakcat doesn't work out well theres plenty of other builds that can have streaks thrown on them. Really getting rid of streaks or greatly nerfing them is all that would be needed to balance ecm. The 3L's ability to shoot streaks while being immune to them was one of the main reasons so many people hated ecm. If streaks didn't exist then the Jenner would be the best brawling light, while the ecm lights would have the stealth of ecm and thus be better for actual scouting and capping and harassing.

The main problem is still ECM, IMO. Streak 2 overall has very little effect in a 8v8 match. Many matches are already decided beyond 500 meter range.

Edited by El Bandito, 03 May 2013 - 06:54 PM.

[dario03]

El Bandito, on 03 May 2013 - 06:49 PM, said:

The main problem is still ECM, IMO. Streak 2 overall has very little effect in a 8v8 match. Many matches are already decided beyond 500 meter range.

Streaks might not be great against larger mechs since heavies are slower and bigger and thus easier to hit but its still a weapon that can be used against them. But the only thing lights have going for them is that they are fast and thus harder to hit but streaks completely negate that. Plus lights usually need to be in close range of their target since they don't have the available weight to carry large weapons so a fight against lights is not usually decided beyond 500m. And ECM isn't a huge issue at that range since all its doing is making it a little harder to spot a enemy and making it so you need to tag them to get lrm lock, it does nothing to stop lasers and ballistics.

[El Bandito]

dario03, on 03 May 2013 - 07:37 PM, said:

Streaks might not be great against larger mechs since heavies are slower and bigger and thus easier to hit but its still a weapon that can be used against them. But the only thing lights have going for them is that they are fast and thus harder to hit but streaks completely negate that. Plus lights usually need to be in close range of their target since they don't have the available weight to carry large weapons so a fight against lights is not usually decided beyond 500m. And ECM isn't a huge issue at that range since all its doing is making it a little harder to spot a enemy and making it so you need to tag them to get lrm lock, it does nothing to stop lasers and ballistics.

Did you know that Medium lasers (which almost all lights can mount with ease) have LONGER effective range than SSRMs? Did you know that some pilots, who are not me, are smart enough not to get into a brawling range with a Streak carrier 1v1? Did you know that many lights are switching to PPC (again easily carried), and find it better than doing stupid brawling after the Ballistic state rewind?

Edited by El Bandito, 03 May 2013 - 07:42 PM.

[dario03]

El Bandito, on 03 May 2013 - 07:40 PM, said:

Did you know that Medium lasers (which almost all lights can mount with ease) have LONGER effective range than SSRMs? Did you know that some pilots, who are not me, are smart enough not to get into a brawling range with a Streak carrier 1v1? Did you know that many lights are switching to PPC (again easily carried), and find it better than doing stupid brawling after the Ballistic state rewind?

Did you know that none of that really changes the fact that there doesn't need to be a auto hit weapon in a game that is basically a first person shooter? Pure and simple there is no reason that streaks need to be like they are. If somebody can't hit a moving target at 270m with aimed weapons then to bad, so sad, learn to aim better. Lights shouldn't have to cower in fear of larger mechs because of auto hitting missles, they already have a big enough disadvantage with their lower armor and fewer and or weaker weapons.

[El Bandito]

dario03, on 03 May 2013 - 08:00 PM, said:

Did you know that none of that really changes the fact that there doesn't need to be a auto hit weapon in a game that is basically a first person shooter? Pure and simple there is no reason that streaks need to be like they are. If somebody can't hit a moving target at 270m with aimed weapons then to bad, so sad, learn to aim better. Lights shouldn't have to cower in fear of larger mechs because of auto hitting missles, they already have a big enough disadvantage with their lower armor and fewer and or weaker weapons.

Clearly you have no idea what lights are designed for. They are not suppose to beat heavier mechs 1v1 or even stay near it for long time. Their main role is to scout, cap, disrupt and tag. If you want kills, go play heavier mechs.

Read the bloody forums. See any topic complaining about SSRMs? PPC+Gauss are the king/main problem right now. And it will be so until PGI do something about it.

If you complain about fewer lights mechs, then complain it to PGI, who basically has only 2 modes of gameplay.

Edited by El Bandito, 03 May 2013 - 09:10 PM.

[dario03]

El Bandito, on 03 May 2013 - 09:03 PM, said:

Clearly you have no idea what lights are designed for. They are not suppose to beat heavier mechs 1v1 or even stay near it for long time. Their main role is to scout, cap, disrupt and tag. If you want kills, go play heavier mechs.

Read the bloody forums. See any topic complaining about SSRMs? PPC+Gauss are the king/main problem right now. And it will be so until PGI do something about it.

If you complain about fewer lights mechs, then complain it to PGI, who basically has only 2 modes of gameplay.

Clearly you don't know how to carry on a conversation properly. And I think that I do know what lights are for, seeing how I play them quite a bit.... Oh and I do read the forums or do you think I just magically got 442 posts out of no where (and I lurk more than I post). And while I was reading the bloody forums I did see posts complaining about ssrms, lets see, theres ummmm this one... and oh the threads announcing the change...and oh yeah matter of fact some of them were in your thread about how you can't wait to break out your streakcat after the bap buff.

Edited by dario03, 03 May 2013 - 09:24 PM.

[One Medic Army]

El Bandito, on 03 May 2013 - 09:03 PM, said:

Clearly you have no idea what lights are designed for. They are not suppose to beat heavier mechs 1v1 or even stay near it for long time. Their main role is to scout, cap, disrupt and tag. If you want kills, go play heavier mechs.

Read the bloody forums. See any topic complaining about SSRMs? PPC+Gauss are the king/main problem right now. And it will be so until PGI do something about it.

If you complain about fewer lights mechs, then complain it to PGI, who basically has only 2 modes of gameplay.

Well, first off there are plenty of mechs in TT that are lights designed for hit+run tactics, or getting behind larger mechs that pretty much need a run action just to turn around.
Secondly there's nothing for lights to do in MWO besides cap and kill, and capping may get you wins but it doesn't get you any rewards compared to combat.

So you're pretty much saying that lights are/should be designed to suck in this game, which is not what PGI's stated intention is.

As a corollary to the above, if we're going by original design intentions from TT, the purpose of Streak missiles isn't to face-r*pe light mechs, it's to reduce ammo consumption and heat generation.
Pulse lasers are the things designed to hit more often. Surprise, surprise they're highly effective vs light mechs.
We don't need auto-hit missiles.

Edited by One Medic Army, 03 May 2013 - 09:18 PM.

[hammerreborn]

One Medic Army, on 03 May 2013 - 09:16 PM, said:

Well, first off there are plenty of mechs in TT that are lights designed for hit+run tactics, or getting behind larger mechs that pretty much need a run action just to turn around.
Secondly there's nothing for lights to do in MWO besides cap and kill, and capping may get you wins but it doesn't get you any rewards compared to combat.

So you're pretty much saying that lights are/should be designed to suck in this game, which is not what PGI's stated intention is.

As a corollary to the above, if we're going by original design intentions from TT, the purpose of Streak missiles isn't to face-r*pe light mechs, it's to reduce ammo consumption and heat generation.
Pulse lasers are the things designed to hit more often. Surprise, surprise they're highly effective vs light mechs.
We don't need auto-hit missiles.

I do enjoy how in the R&R days, playing a light (unless you were welfaring it) was the only consistent way to get money. Now it's the absolute worst, and when before there was a good healthy mix of everything, it's now 70% heavy/assaults.

[One Medic Army]

hammerreborn, on 03 May 2013 - 09:21 PM, said:

I do enjoy how in the R&R days, playing a light (unless you were welfaring it) was the only consistent way to get money. Now it's the absolute worst, and when before there was a good healthy mix of everything, it's now 70% heavy/assaults.

Std engine mediums were better, my Hunch-P was my money maker with all those cheap lasers.