362 replies to this topic

[Thornix]

Who would have the C-bills for that?

[Steel Talon]

Steiner's dream

[Shezmu]

Steel Talon, on 06 June 2012 - 12:22 PM, said:

Steiner's dream

No, a Imperator-class Titan is bigger http://warhammer40k....tor-class_Titan

[Oswin Aurelius]

Steel Talon, on 06 June 2012 - 12:22 PM, said:

Steiner's dream

YOU KEEP MY BLESSED 40K OUT OF THIS. XD

[Sporkosophy]

Alex Wolfe, on 06 June 2012 - 11:52 AM, said:

Well, you and me seem to simply have different ideas on the untouchability of canon. The approach "what's done is done" is pretty much the only possible for reality, but for fiction I have no problem if re-tellings of stories have bits changed or altered to remove lapsus while keeping the essence of the franchise.

I'm fine with squats and zoats not being a part of Warhammer 40k universe, fine with Lex Luthor hating Superman for reasons other than the latter making the former lose hair, I'm fine with midichlorians and Star Wars Holiday Special never being mentioned again, and I'm perfectly fine with the ridiculous (yes, ridiculous even within the "walking robots" premise) LAMs and proto-mechs never appearing in wherever the modern mech line will go from now. If it happens, well, it happens, it's the writers' prerogative, but should they decide to phase it out because it simply didn't click, or turned out to be a bad idea in hindsight - I'd be all for it.

In short, I simply don't see canon as sanctum sanctorum, especially since with so many people writing it and pitching their own ideas, it's nearly impossible to keep consistency and sense. I'm not saying that people who love canon and deem it untouchable are wrong or something, I simply disagree with "that happened, deal with it" mentality - there is plenty of precedence to the contrary, and often beneficial to the line as a whole. Rather than see canon as untouchable and "done deed", I see it as partially malleable with consistency being the guide.

The problem being, Catalyst has officially said they're leaving the Dark Ages as is. Accept it and move on.

MogCarns, on 06 June 2012 - 12:18 PM, said:

Ok... to clear up the canon/non-canon...

The very last act in BattleTech is Katherine joining Clan Wolf. Everything else is poorly written fan fiction, regardless of who happened to own the IP at the time. You are welcome to your opinions, however wrong they may be.


Super Large Battlemechs simply do not work. They take too much power and the myomers and actuators cannot support the weight and function to move the battlemech. In the fluff of most 100 ton designs, it is very clearly noted that the Mech is only barely mobile... the Amaris version of the Behemoth shut down and fried its parts trying to move.

Now, as for multileg versions... yes, you could do that to relieve the strain. However, much like the Goliath, the loss of one leg is enough to cripple the mech. it also costs you a good portion of your critical slots. Unless you have been granted access to level 3 rules, every weapon has only one facing, and there is no torso twist or arm movement to compensate.


So, you end up with a 2/3 max Mech, that mounts, at best, a pair of PPCS and some LRMS, because the mech is too slow to defend itself in close. You lack Critical slots for things like heat sinks if you put any more weapons on it. As an added bonus, the mech is completely crippled if ANY ONE SECTION IS DESTROYED. You have to run just to turn around. Anyone with access to a few light mechs can tear you apart without you being able to do anything about it.

Or you could have four Stalkers for the same price. Gee... math is hard.

A good thing you're the wrong one. The owners decide what is canon, if you want your fanfiction, then remember that is all it is.

[Rustic Dude]

Shezmu, on 06 June 2012 - 12:28 PM, said:

No, a Imperator-class Titan is bigger http://warhammer40k....tor-class_Titan

Then it is Steiner's wet dream

[KANE LIVES]

MogCarns, on 06 June 2012 - 12:18 PM, said:

Ok... to clear up the canon/non-canon...

The very last act in BattleTech is Katherine joining Clan Wolf. Everything else is poorly written fan fiction, regardless of who happened to own the IP at the time. You are welcome to your opinions, however wrong they may be.


Super Large Battlemechs simply do not work. They take too much power and the myomers and actuators cannot support the weight and function to move the battlemech. In the fluff of most 100 ton designs, it is very clearly noted that the Mech is only barely mobile... the Amaris version of the Behemoth shut down and fried its parts trying to move.

Now, as for multileg versions... yes, you could do that to relieve the strain. However, much like the Goliath, the loss of one leg is enough to cripple the mech. it also costs you a good portion of your critical slots. Unless you have been granted access to level 3 rules, every weapon has only one facing, and there is no torso twist or arm movement to compensate.


So, you end up with a 2/3 max Mech, that mounts, at best, a pair of PPCS and some LRMS, because the mech is too slow to defend itself in close. You lack Critical slots for things like heat sinks if you put any more weapons on it. As an added bonus, the mech is completely crippled if ANY ONE SECTION IS DESTROYED. You have to run just to turn around. Anyone with access to a few light mechs can tear you apart without you being able to do anything about it.

Or you could have four Stalkers for the same price. Gee... math is hard.

Get Jihad: Final Reckoning and look at the Omega (also lots more cool stuff). It has 3 Gauss Rifles and 2 LB-10-X ACs and, yes, it moves 2/3. But, on a super-heavy 'mech, ALL EQUIPMENT TAKE HALF SLOTS. Yes, a Gauss Rifle which would take 7 slots would take 3 or 4 slots. 3 OR 4 SLOTS. And it has enough armor to take a Gauss to the head. So, in conclusion, super-heavy 'mechs ARE POSSIBLE. They are able to take waaaaay more damage than you can dish out, and hammer away with weapons that, even when really heavy, take practically no slots and are minute tonnage to the 150 ton 'mech. Also, go to Sarna.net and look up the Orca. 200 tons.

Thornix, on 06 June 2012 - 12:19 PM, said:

Who would have the C-bills for that?

Lyrans.

[Ashla Mason]

I revise my oppinion on Super heavys where-in I said I fail to see the point.

The new point would be target practice for warships in orbit.

Also: I looked up the orca and Sarna had this to say about it:

Quote

Canonicity

The Project Omega document was an April Fools joke by Dave McCulloch and Warner Doles uploaded to the official classicbattletech.com site. Pertaining to be an official Technical Readout-style document within the BattleTech universe (a report within Word of Blake), it described the super-heavy Orca-class BattleMech, complete with combat history and variants.
Although clearly marked as non-canonical, the design gained notoriety among fans similar to the Gausszilla. Within the document it was classified as a "Dreadnought"; 'Mechs massing above 100 tons are otherwise known as collossal 'Mechs.

Edited by Ashla Mason, 06 June 2012 - 06:50 PM.

[Karyudo ds]

BladedDragon, on 06 June 2012 - 12:09 PM, said:

A 100 ton mech would amuse me but it would be slow as heck. I for one can't wait to get my hands on the Omega from IWMs. The thing is 23 pieces ...

Mini actually doesn't look to bad... not sure about IWM though, tried assembling a Marauder and practically put together 3 40k Dreadnaughts in the time it took to glue it. Maybe I just wish they were bigger.

[Ashla Mason]

gunther2, on 06 June 2012 - 06:55 PM, said:

Thank you SO MUCH for clearing that up for me. I was under this totally weird impression that official license holders could create new and exciting material for the game but now I see the light.

Seriously though, is it tough to groom a neckbeard that thick?

Please, enlighten me about what is so great about arbitrarily exceding the weight limits that the game has operated under for close to 30 years.

Like, If you have a burning need to play with ridiculous giant robots that dwarf everything else on the board go and play Warhammer 40,000 and spend a few thousand building a Legio Titanicus army for apocalypse. Me, I'll be playing a game with some sort of balance and logical limitations.

[Dvinn]

Sorry If someone already said this but If I remember my battletech fluff correctly the other reason there were no mechs over 100tons is that besides the engine size problem is that there was a delay in signals sent from the pilot to the mech in sizes over 100tons. Neuro-helmet signals to the gyros lag slightly the bigger a mech is, apparently, so after 100tons the signal delay started to become noticeable. That's why in the Colossal mechs have a three person crew (Pilot, Gunner, Engineer) so dedicated systems can transmit their controls. I'm not sure If that's an accurate assessment but I remember hearing/reading that somewhere.

[Sporkosophy]

Ashla Mason, on 06 June 2012 - 07:04 PM, said:

Please, enlighten me about what is so great about arbitrarily exceding the weight limits that the game has operated under for close to 30 years.

Like, If you have a burning need to play with ridiculous giant robots that dwarf everything else on the board go and play Warhammer 40,000 and spend a few thousand building a Legio Titanicus army for apocalypse. Me, I'll be playing a game with some sort of balance and logical limitations.

Do the impossible, see the invisible.

[wanderer]

MogCarns, on 06 June 2012 - 12:18 PM, said:

Ok... to clear up the canon/non-canon...

The very last act in BattleTech is Katherine joining Clan Wolf. Everything else is poorly written fan fiction, regardless of who happened to own the IP at the time. You are welcome to your opinions, however wrong they may be.

Nice try but...no. My copy of Field Manual 3085 is quite clear on what happened, regardless of what you may have stuck in your ears while drumming your fingers loudly and going LA LA LA DON'T HEAR THIS!

Jihad happened, Dark Ages happened (though happily, Catalyst will be skipping over a lot of that ala the 20 Year Update) and what's canon is canon. Superheavies exist, we will have to endure (briefly) the Dork Age work of WizKids and the happy efforts of Catalyst to provide palatable additions to the scrubby junk WizKids made in the name of "progress". Including the Ares. which will likely find a place next to the Omega in the "superweapons that ended up scrap" department.

That being said, the bottom end of the weight class actually has it's virtues, including a much, MUCH roomier chassis and balanced construction rules- like an inability to jump. Period. That includes airdropping one even if you could find a big enough jump pack to strap on. It's perfectly possible to build a 3/5 move superheavy with some of the bulkier weapons even as arm mounts and a bit of extra armor involved in the whole thing- amusingly enough, a point crossed at the 135-ton weight class of the Ares, which is just heavy enough to be stuck at 2/3. But a 105-115 ton design can do some nice things, and has reasonable Hogarthian reasons to grace battlefields, if they ever get another SH line into full production...because sometimes, you just need all the firepower you can fit into one 'Mech bay and the heck with cost overruns.

[Lipot]

Every time I seen the picture of the Omega, I want to scream Macross rip off again. And while everyone keeps wanting to bring in collossal size 'mechs and trying to argue about their pros or cons, I am thinking...where did I put my Long Tom again? If I can't find it then I will need to pull out the Thumper or Arrow. The Battletech Universe has had many ways to deal with large 'mechs. While I do not know if the Long Tom or Thumper 'mech artillery weapons will be brought into MWO, we do have word that the Arrow will be. In the time line that we are all going to start with there will be ER and Pulse weapons but not common. We can speculate about the need for bigger 'mechs and argue about where the canon went wrong. Even without the clans, there will be enough going on that I know that I will need to dust off my original FASA tech read outs and box manual to help with some of the different variants. Bigger is not always better but it is not always worst either.

Edited by Lipot, 06 June 2012 - 07:53 PM.

[Akaryu]

Gendou, on 05 June 2012 - 04:10 PM, said:

I guess you haven't seen the Omega, a 150 ton Word of Blake Design from the Jihad.

normaly i see any mech bigger then 50 tons as comic relief unless they are damn effective mechs like the Kodiak Atlas Hauptmann Catapult Fafnir or the Stalker but i would almost certainly accept death at the sight of that mech.

Edited by Akaryu, 06 June 2012 - 08:02 PM.

[purehidro]

google kanes wrath reedemer.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 05 June 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Orca

That is my favorite 100+ 'Mech. I seem to recall a varient with a rotary Gauss rifle (the most amazing weapon ever!).

I like this tag on the top:

Quote

Not Canon!
The subject of this article does not contribute canonical content to the BattleTech universe, either because it is not intended to or because it is not an official product.
See the article's section on Canonicity for details.

[Krivvan]

There's also a reason why today ships are limited in width because of canals and stuff they can fit in. Fighters are limited in size due to having to fit in and on things.

Also, square-cube law. A mech thrice the size does not mean that an engine thrice as powerful comes anywhere close to being able to move it.

Edited by Krivvan, 06 June 2012 - 08:16 PM.

[purehidro]

more ton=more space for rail guns and gauss rifles

Edited by purehidro, 06 June 2012 - 08:22 PM.

[DireWolf307]

purehidro, on 06 June 2012 - 08:21 PM, said:

more ton=more space for rail guns and gauss rifles

And once again for the umpteenthbillion time, more weapons isn't everything in Battletech/Mechwarrior.