33 replies to this topic

[stjobe]

Vapor Trail, on 06 May 2013 - 06:47 AM, said:

Prior canon example: Vibrobomb mines.

Sure, they're a much simpler system, but their introduction predates TacOps by years (1990's Battletech Compendium, at the very least).

TRO 3026 (1987) had portable seismic sensors as personal equipment, and lots of fluff texts mention seismic sensors as part of the sensor package of 'mechs.

This apocryphal essay sums it up thusly:

Quote

BattleMech targeting and tracking systems consist more than just the BC - the system is a network of sophisticated sensors, sub-computers, and programming. Thermal imaging, light amplification, radar, laser tracking, uv tracking, and magnetic anomaly sensors are generally used as primary sensors, supplemented by seismic sensors, motion detectors, chemical analyzers, microwave, tracking, and many others, depending on what equipment a 'Mech mounts.

Whether or not they're standard equipment is of course a matter of debate.

[Strum Wealh]

Though, the official explanation also includes seismic sensors as being among the items included in BattleMechs' sensor suites.

"In its entirety, a BattleMech’s targeting and tracking (T&T) system includes a sophisticated set of sensors and computers to process data. These systems are getting ever more sophisticated as technology is recovered and expanded... a fact that might explain the Blakists’ recent interest in targeting electronics manufacturers throughout the Inner Sphere.
Thermal imaging, light amplification, radar and magnetic anomaly sensors are all among the primary sensors used by BattleMechs, supplemented by seismic sensors, motion detectors, chemical analyzers and a multitude of others. Despite this broad range of sensor types, MechWarriors are not deluged with raw data. Sophisticated computers streamline, interpret and prioritize this information, so that by the time the warrior gets the info, it appears as simple visual cues on the usual cockpit displays or the warrior’s own neurohelmet heads-up display (HUD)."
(TechManual, pg. 39)

It should also be noted that the seismometer that is integrated into the 'Mech would be separate from the deployable units ejected from a Remote Sensor Dispenser.

"Available in an array of types, including motion detectors, thermal sensors, portable radar and EM scanners, modern remote sensors are often used to set up a perimeter defense network, but because they are readily destroyed and relatively expensive to produce, their utility on a fluid battlefield waned through the Succession Wars. The return of Star League technology (which made mass deployment of such sensors viable) allowed for their revival in more recent years, but they remain susceptible to battlefield countermeasures."
(Tactical Operations, pg. 375)

In Dev Blog 02 (covering Information Warfare), PGI made mention of "Detectors" and described them as "dropped off on the battlefield".
Potentially, this alludes to the eventual possibility of various types of "remote detectors" (including radar, magscan, thermal, and seismic?) working in conjunction with the sensor suites in the players' 'Mechs.

[Bernard Matthaios]

So if this module picks up anything that moves on the ground. Could you possibly fire SRM/LRM or ballistics on the ground to give false readings? This could prove a tactical advantage...

[Artgathan]

Bernard Matthaios, on 06 May 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

So if this module picks up anything that moves on the ground. Could you possibly fire SRM/LRM or ballistics on the ground to give false readings? This could prove a tactical advantage...

That would be very interesting. I'd love to see that in game play - very useful for spooking the enemy!

[Strum Wealh]

Bernard Matthaios, on 06 May 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

So if this module picks up anything that moves on the ground. Could you possibly fire SRM/LRM or ballistics on the ground to give false readings? This could prove a tactical advantage...

It could... but then again, my previous posts, both including direct citations of the source material, both indicate that the 'Mechs are "smart" enough to distinguish noteworthy readings (in TT terms, the expending of MP by ground-based units) from mere noise (such as a LRM volley or stray ballistic projectile) and are able to prioritize and present only relevant data to the MechWarrior.

While implementing such a cluttering effect would be a nice touch (doubly-so if combined with a map with seismic effects from a quake or eruption), it does represent more data that the servers and clients will have to pass back-and-forth (not to mention coding the effect and the effects related to it), and there is canonical justification (as well as IRL concerns and limitations) for not implementing it as well.

[New Day]

Artgathan, on 07 May 2013 - 07:45 AM, said:

That would be very interesting. I'd love to see that in game play - very useful for spooking the enemy!

Bernard Matthaios, on 06 May 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

So if this module picks up anything that moves on the ground. Could you possibly fire SRM/LRM or ballistics on the ground to give false readings? This could prove a tactical advantage...

Because each LRM weighs a ton.

[Escef]

NamesAreStupid, on 25 May 2013 - 11:25 AM, said:

Because each LRM weighs a ton.

The explosive force generated is very much in excess of a ton. And even if it weren't, force equals mass times acceleration, an object with low mass impacting at high speed will generate a similar force to a high mass object impacting at low speed.

[New Day]

Escef, on 25 May 2013 - 12:30 PM, said:

The explosive force generated is very much in excess of a ton. And even if it weren't, force equals mass times acceleration, an object with low mass impacting at high speed will generate a similar force to a high mass object impacting at low speed.

Don't you mean acceleration. And I doubt that LRMS have a acceleration 180 times higher than a mech foot stomping down. Because that's how much it would take to make them equal force of 1 t stomping down.

[Strum Wealh]

NamesAreStupid, on 25 May 2013 - 11:25 AM, said:

Because each LRM weighs a ton.

Escef, on 25 May 2013 - 12:30 PM, said:

The explosive force generated is very much in excess of a ton. And even if it weren't, force equals mass times acceleration, an object with low mass impacting at high speed will generate a similar force to a high mass object impacting at low speed.

NamesAreStupid, on 25 May 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:

Don't you mean acceleration. And I doubt that LRMS have a acceleration 180 times higher than a mech foot stomping down. Because that's how much it would take to make them equal force of 1 t stomping down.

Well, we know that MWO LRMs have a launch mass of ((1000 kg/ton)/(180 missiles/ton)), or 5.556 kg per missile (equivalent to 12.248 lbs per missile).

We also know that they have a flight speed of 120 m/s (equivalent to 432 kph, or 393.701 ft/sec, or 268.342 mph).

According to one MIT website, "For a typical rocket, the total mass of the vehicle might be distributed in the following way: of the total mass, 90 percent is the propellants, 6 percent is the structure (tanks, engines, fins, etc.), and 4 percent can be the payload."

0.556 kg of MWO LRM (assuming all fuel has been expended) with a velocity of 120 m/s will have a momentum of 66.72 kg*m/s.
Assuming the missile is a dud and imparts only kinetic energy on impact (say, over the course of 0.1s), it would impart 667.2 N of force on impact.
If we assume instead that "over the course of impact" is represented by 0.01s, it would impart 6672 N of force on impact.
For comparison, 1 pound of force (lbf) is equal to 4.448N.

667.2N = 149.99 lbf
6672N = 1499.93 lbf

Conclusion: if a MWO LRM was traveling at its full flight velocity and a significant portion of fuel remained and the missile did not detonate upon impact, an individual such missile could potentially generate a literal ton of force upon impact.

And recall, canon/TT LRMs have 50% more per-missile launch mass than the MWO rendition, and SRMs have nearly-double the per-missile launch mass of MWO LRMs...

(Yeah, that was some "srs bsns" overanalysis... )

[Escef]

Given Strum's numbers (TY, BTW), a large salvo of LRMs could pass for a small mech. Or at least create enough seismic interference to obfuscate one's movement somewhat, or throw size estimates way off. But this is way too involved for TT or MWO play, m'thinks.

[Strum Wealh]

Escef, on 25 May 2013 - 03:11 PM, said:

Given Strum's numbers (TY, BTW), a large salvo of LRMs could pass for a small mech. Or at least create enough seismic interference to obfuscate one's movement somewhat, or throw size estimates way off. But this is way too involved for TT or MWO play, m'thinks.

Agreed.

However, the BT gameplay rules do indicate that seismic sensors re susceptible to interference from earthquakes and meteor showers.

Perhaps we'll be shortly seeing maps with built-in seismic effects... like the Volcano map mentioned in Ask the Devs 32...?

[Thorqemada]

zwanglos, on 04 May 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

It's just a crutch, and IMO won't see much use outside of PUGs.

Good pilots that don't blast techno/metal/whatever music while playing can probably already hear you before you get in that 200m detection range, and any team with good situational awareness and map familiarity will spot you much further out.

Yeah, a few patches ago i could hear Mechs coming at times but recently at least at my System it seems that footsteps have been reduced noise and i dont even hear an Atlas steps.

[New Day]

Strum Wealh, on 25 May 2013 - 01:16 PM, said:

...Conclusion: if a MWO LRM was traveling at its full flight velocity and a significant portion of fuel remained and the missile did not detonate upon impact, an individual such missile could potentially generate a literal ton of force upon impact....

There isn't going to be a lot of fuel left, cause it has to use it. For you know, flying.

[Strum Wealh]

NamesAreStupid, on 26 May 2013 - 01:24 AM, said:

There isn't going to be a lot of fuel left, cause it has to use it. For you know, flying.

There's going to be a significantly greater quantity of fuel remaining at 300 meters than at 900 meters, methinks...